Date   

Re: Lab results help please, start pergolide?

Amy Allard <allarda@...>
 

You don't come right out and say that Lance has had laminitis, but has been sore recently that can be due to shoeing technique.
    I was told by vet and farrier that he dosen't show any outward signs of Laminitis...  Though I got the feeling that his most recent episode was not his typical navicular flair up (normally after he looses a shoe, steps on a rock, or after a bad farrier)

How are his feet now? WOuld he be ouchy if not in shoes? Reason I"m asking is that his ACTH is right at the border line, and it will go higher over the next months simply due to the seasonal rise in ACTH. At his age, you do need to consider PPID, regardless of blatant symptoms.
   He has not been able to go without shoes due to navicular and poor hoof quality since 2002-2003 (somewhere in there)

Did Lance have any soreness last fall or winter that was maybe attributed to navicular problems or arthritis? Maybe just a little off, or trippy? Often low grade laminitis is diagnosed as nav or arthritis, or being lazy.
     Last fall he was sore, however we tried pulling his shoes for the first time in many years due to contracted heals... We put shoes back on within 2 weeks

I'm not trying to paint Lance with a picture of PPID, however, it is unusual for a QH to have IR without something else causing it...in most cases, an underlying PPID. His ACTH will rise more through the next 3-4 months - the question is, will he have an exaggerated rise that PPID horses often have, and will it cause him further symptoms - laminitis, which we want to avoid at all costs.

I would definitely plug up the hole in the grazing muzzle and allow zero grass. Stop the oil. It can cause induce or worsen IR.
     We already did stop the oil :-)  Not to sound dumb, what is the best way to "plug"  the muzzle?  Is there any risk that could cause him problems being out all night? I really don't think that he is getting much through his muzzle as the field is VERY long and he seem to be only able to reach shorter grass...

Any chance of getting your hay analyzed for sugar and starch? If not, you need to assume it's high, and feed only soaked grass hay. We can help you balance minerals to your hay as well.

     I have to get a new load of hay, then the plan is to have it tested (only 8 or so bales left).  I know that the sugars are okay in this hay because I am using the same hay that a friend had tested for her IR/PPID horse :-)  I plan to balance ASAP!  I will need help though...
 
Amy and Lance
Elkhart IN
7/2010










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Re: Lab results help please, start pergolide?

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 


I got my test results back from Cornell today (I put them in his file) and don't understand how Lance's Glucose has gone up it the last couple of weeks? We have been so careful with his diet.
Hi Amy -

You have results from two different labs. There will most likely be a bit of a difference in the results (and with some labs, big differences) due to the different instruments used in the lab, reagents to calibrate the equipment, etc, and if the blood specimens were handled differently from horse to lab.

I really doubt that the glucose differences are of concern. They will move rapidly in response to many things happening with the body. While we don't want glucose to go sky high on high sugar/starch meals, the value that is more important is the insulin. They are essentially the same from the two labs. A value of 30 is indicative of IR.

The other thing that I find interesting is that the ACTH levels are almost the same. My vet uses Antech, and I have been somewhat suspicious of the results. This makes me breath a little better.

You don't come right out and say that Lance has had laminitis, but has been sore recently that can be due to shoeing technique.

How are his feet now? WOuld he be ouchy if not in shoes? Reason I"m asking is that his ACTH is right at the border line, and it will go higher over the next months simply due to the seasonal rise in ACTH. At his age, you do need to consider PPID, regardless of blatant symptoms.

Did Lance have any soreness last fall or winter that was maybe attributed to navicular problems or arthritis? Maybe just a little off, or trippy? Often low grade laminitis is diagnosed as nav or arthritis, or being lazy.

I'm not trying to paint Lance with a picture of PPID, however, it is unusual for a QH to have IR without something else causing it...in most cases, an underlying PPID. His ACTH will rise more through the next 3-4 months - the question is, will he have an exaggerated rise that PPID horses often have, and will it cause him further symptoms - laminitis, which we want to avoid at all costs.

I would definitely plug up the hole in the grazing muzzle and allow zero grass. Stop the oil. It can cause induce or worsen IR.

Any chance of getting your hay analyzed for sugar and starch? If not, you need to assume it's high, and feed only soaked grass hay. We can help you balance minerals to your hay as well.

To pergolide, or not to pergolide; that is the question. I would probably start him on 1mg through the fall/winter. I have been there done that enough to err on the side of caution.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Lab results help please, start pergolide?

allarda@ymail.com <allarda@...>
 


Re: princess: trotting!

palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...>
 

Hi Sue,

You are right- it just takes time. Having the diet in place, Princess will daily look and feel better. She gave you a tiny preview of what she has in store to show you!

She is a very fortunate girl to have such a thoughtful and caring human in her life.

Sounds like you have the bases covered,Sue.

Susan
EC Support/Primary Response
San Diego 1.07
EC/IR website:
http://www.ecirhorse.com
..................................................




maybe it will just take time. shes acting and looks good other than a little skinny. oh she trotted a little in the pasture today, only 5 to 10 steps, I'll take what I can. when she goes out she has a muzzle on and the hole taped up... NO GRASS. I went over the files and I don't think I missed anything...






Re: Lab results help please, start pergolide?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

(I put them in his file) and don't understand how Lance's Glucose has gone up it the last couple of weeks?
Amy? Do you have a link to his file?

What was his Insulin number? You need to know that, as opposed to just his Glucose.

(ACTH was 30.4?)
That's good! Cornell's range is 9-35,isn't it??

Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Lab results help please, start pergolide?

allarda@ymail.com <allarda@...>
 

I got my test results back from Cornell today (I put them in his file) and don't understand how Lance's Glucose has gone up it the last couple of weeks? We have been so careful with his diet. Is there something that I am missing or is this not going to resolve until we start pergolide? Does he need Pergolide?

Sorry I am just worried and waiting to hear back from my vet on his thoughts of the results (ACTH was 30.4?) and if he feels that he is Cushings as well as IR... Any imput would be helpful

Amy and Lance
Elkhart IN
7/2010

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/AmyA%207-2010/>


Re: princess and blood work // help

Lorna <briars@...>
 

she trotted today..only a couple steps, on her own... yea!!! its a start
Yay,Princess!!
Doesn't that make your heart burst right out of your chest,Sue??(rhetorical,don't answer! Lol.)

Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Re: princess and blood work // help

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Sue,

When one of my boys was sloughing all his feet,and abscessing,in terrible pain,I was feeding him 6 times what I had been feeding him before the event.He never ever stopped eating,but the pain was causing him to lose weight big time.
Fortunately,(sort of) he was overweight to begin with,because he dropped ~300 pounds before stabilizing.

Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Re: princess and blood work // help

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

thank you Linda,,,
I credit it  to you and all who helped  me .......THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure I'll have more questions...... she trotted today..only a couple steps, on her own... yea!!! its a start

Sue / princess legacy
oh 6/10

--- On Fri, 7/30/10, Linda <PapBallou@...> wrote:

From: Linda <PapBallou@...>
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: princess and blood work // help
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 12:55 PM







 











so PLEASE anyone know if I need to PULL her off the j herb........... before





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Re: princess and blood work // help

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Hi Susan,
Princess is on 20 pounds of  hay then soaked  in 4 feedings  test results should be back any day on hay . she gets 4 cups of timothy bal cubes, 4 times a day and her salt 1 tab, vit E- 1000. 2 X's day also started her on formula 4 feet. I notice this made a nice improvement on her walking, could be she's just  doing better too... the beet pulp s/r/s, she is getting it am and pm. about 1 pound each time and daily wormer.  also last week she had her ( I hope) last abscesses.. she had 6 of them this month, since I started her on the j herd.. but she still ate.... hope this helps. maybe it will just take time. shes acting and looks good other than a little skinny. oh she trotted a little in the pasture today, only 5 to 10 steps, I'll take what I can. when she goes out she has a muzzle on and the hole taped up... NO GRASS. I went over the files and I don't think I missed anything...
any suggestion?
thank you
Sue / princess legacy
oh 6/10

--- On Fri, 7/30/10, palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...> wrote:

From: palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...>
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: princess and blood work // help
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 2:31 PM







 









Sue,



If Princess's ideal weight is 900lb and she currently weighs 700lb- she needs at least 17-18lbs of feed /day. Do you have a fish scale to weigh her daily feed? If








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Re: Willow Bark

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

Hi Nancy,
Thanks for such a quick response. No, I haven't tried anything else. I can't afford the expensive stuff. Yes she does have heat and swelling. I get pure Devil's Claw from Herbs for Horses in Canada. They have a great reputation and I'm sure they have good Devil's Claw - of course, I have no idea how to check up on it but it certainly isn't doing the trick this summer.
I will look into the things you suggested and get back if I need dosages - if they are in the files or archives I should be able to find them.
Thanks for the link to the message - I wonder why it didn't come up when I searched for "willow bark"... I had read that one ages ago (when looking for dosage for devil's claw) but had forgot about it. It is now marked in my bookmarks!

I'll take a peek about Aleve
Thanks so much!

-LeeAnne
Case History: http://tinyurl.com/yk7mvd6
Photos: http://tinyurl.com/6h64yh
All Season Muzzle Photos: http://tinyurl.com/55c52m


Re: Keeping Weight on PPID/IR Horses

Nancy C
 

Hi Shirley

Thanks for the info.

Sorry, though, I am still confused. They don't need fat. Calories, maybe. Is the sugar and starch level of the tested hay above 10 percent and that is why you continue to soak? If not, you may be soaking out more than you should.


So would a coffee can of BP be about four cups? (Sorry. I don't have a coffee can.)

Found the hoof pics. Here's the link

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/72307264/pic/list>

But I'm looking for a Case History. Blood work, etc??


If she's on a balanced diet, and we know exactly what she is getting in pounds, and her diet is balanced, we can address the situation.

Thanks Shirley

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Weight of Beet Pulp dry would be 1 and 1/2 coffee cans ( in the 1 pound
coffee can dry)

The Bermuda is soaked twice daily, tested and Balanced.


Re: NEW Spot my hay balance sheet please

JMF <jane@...>
 

I re-did the balance sheet. I think I need to add 1g CU and that is all...right?

jane & miss kitty
ne ms 10/09

--- In EquineCushings@..., "JMF" <jane@...> wrote:

Unfortunately, this is for Miss Kitty and I do have a lot of it. I soaked a sample today and will be sending it off for a sugar/starch analysis along with a second sample from the same batch. It is mostly bermuda, so I am concerned with the sugar reduction.


Currently, I am still using last year's hay. I have about 2 weeks worth left.

Thanks,
Jane and Miss Kitty
ME MS
10/09

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Linda" <PapBallou@> wrote:

New hay analysis and history also posted.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory2/files/Jane%20and%20Miss%20Kitty/

Jane -

Is this for Miss Kitty? Do you have a lot of it? That starch is really high at 9% With soaking, you will drop the sugars, hopefully to about 7%, but that still gives you a hefty 15-16% s/s. And the starch will convert 100% to glucose.

Not trying to rain on a parade, but knowing where you've been, you might consider selling this and getting something without the legume mixed in. That is most likely the starch source.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: princess and blood work // help

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Sue,

She may be losing weight because of the amount of feed, but horses with abscesses also tend to lose weight from the pain. The pain causes them to not be hungry, so they don't eat enough.

Just thought I'd let you know.

Joan and Dazzle
EC Primary Response Team
Anaheim, CA 2006

--- In EquineCushings@..., "wolffarm4" <wolffarm4@...> wrote:

shes doing great... but losing weight because of the low sugar and no grass, so I'm upping her timothy cubs and beet pulp. not by much...she was at 800 something at the start and then 769 and now at 702. the vet said she should be around 800 to 1000...


Re: Keeping Weight on PPID/IR Horses

Ironways
 

Hi Nancy,

The Sugar (ESC) in the tested Bermuda Grass hay I am using is 6.0 the
Starch is 5.7 that's a total of 11.7 sugar and starch does that need to be
soaked or am I soaking things out of it?

A 1 lb coffee can would be about 4 cups, Karaj is getting 6 cups total per
day rsr beet pulp all she will eat and I am feeding all she can eat at
least 20 pounds of Bermuda per day with some Alfalfa that was balanced to 1
pound per day, I've stepped the Alfalfa up to 4 pounds per day now and have
added the Purina Welsolve L/S a few days ago and got the Forco today which
she was started on, Calories she is lacking on, not the fat sorry, since
starting her on Welsolve a few days ago her condition has improved (more energy
better attitude and looks a lot better) so I am very positive it is
Calories she is lacking and maybe a little trouble absorbing her minerals that's
why I purchased the Forco.

Did not fill out a case history I arrived on this group in an emergency
situation which Linda quickly responded w/getting my mare off 3-way hay which
my Vet recommended she be put on when she got Lamintis in August 09 and
then Diagnosed Cushings in September with my asking of my Vet to check for
Cushings because of her longer coat, he also did the Dex suppression test to
verify Cushings when she already had Laminitis..

The main reason I posted is because I have not found any list of
"Supplements" in the files for PPID/IR horses that are underweight and need more
weight put on, all info I have found is from reading various emails on posts to
this list.

Thanks, Shirley Marquardt
Quartz Hill, Ca.
11/09

In a message dated 7/30/2010 6:28:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
threecatfarm@... writes:




Hi Shirley

Thanks for the info.

Sorry, though, I am still confused. They don't need fat. Calories, maybe.
Is the sugar and starch level of the tested hay above 10 percent and that
is why you continue to soak? If not, you may be soaking out more than you
should.

So would a coffee can of BP be about four cups? (Sorry. I don't have a
coffee can.)

Found the hoof pics. Here's the link

<_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/72307264/pic/list_
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/72307264/pic/list) >

But I'm looking for a Case History. Blood work, etc??

If she's on a balanced diet, and we know exactly what she is getting in
pounds, and her diet is balanced, we can address the situation.

Thanks Shirley

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
_http://www.ecirhorse.com/_ (http://www.ecirhorse.com/)

Weight of Beet Pulp dry would be 1 and 1/2 coffee cans ( in the 1 pound
coffee can dry)

The Bermuda is soaked twice daily, tested and Balanced.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Source for Timothy Balance cubes

Saucier Kathy
 

Pat,
You can try going to the source. Robin Staloch with Triple Crown Feed can tell you who distributes in your area. The second person below, Jerral Seale, was the area person for N TX (at least a few years ago he was) and may either be your area also or know who to contact.
TC should be able to tell you who carries or at least can get you the OTDB cubes.
Kathy S.
N TX
January 2005

Staloch, Robin
E-mail Address(es):
rstalock@...

Seale, Jerral
E-mail Address(es):
jseale@...


Re: Source for Timothy Balance cubes

Pam Shoes
 

Nutrena has announced they will be carrying Triple Crown products.  There is a
link on their website to find local dealers:
http://www.nutrenaworld.com/nutrena/.  It has 4 dealers listed in OK City.

Hope that helps,

Pam
Houston, TX July 2010




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anhydrosis and the Cushings Horse

twitterpatedbabykoala
 

Hi,

Cindi (mare, age 22, TB, has Cushings but is not IR) isn't sweating as well as she used to. She has never foundered and has been on Pergolide for 4 years. After 2 years of trying, I have never been able to get her ACTH down into the Cornell normal range, and so I have chosen to manage her based on clinical signs instead of chasing a normal ACTH. Until the last month or so, she has been clinically excellent: lean and shiny and active. But, as I mentioned above, she is now not sweating very well. We're in South Carolina, so it is hot, and I have been hosing her off a couple times a day. She is clipped.

I have read that anhydrosis can be caused by "a low regulation of

Beta-2 [dopamine] receptors." If I understand the chemical mechanism of Pergolide correctly, it seems logical that if that an increase in dosage would help with anhydrosis, since Pergolide is a dopamine agonist. I always increase Cindi's dosage in mid-August anyway because of the impending seasonal rise in ACTH. Is this typically how group members have dealt with anhydrosis - an increase in Pergolide?

I wonder, also, if I should increase it even more than I normally would? (I normally bump her up from 1.5mg to 2.0mg.) As I type this, I assume that I will get answers along the lines of "You can't know without a blood draw." But, of course, blood draws this time of year are wildly out of whack anyway, right? I guess, ideally, I would have done one in June for comparison. But I didn't. Any thoughts?

Also, has anyone pursued any of the 'normal horse' treatments for anhydrosis? There's a supplement called One AC, for example, and I've read recommendations of adding Guinness beer to the feed. As a group, do we have any experience with these things? Beer is so caloric... I would be hesitant to try it without knowing other Cushings horse keepers had done it safely before me.

Looking forward to your opinions,
Rebecca
on behalf of Cindi (22, TB mare, Cushings, non-IR)
South Carolina


Re: Willow Bark

Nancy C
 

Hi LeeAnn

Willow Bark is okay for IR/PPID horses. Dose is as high as three ounces but you should start lower. It is similar to aspirin (blood thinner) so you need to let the vet know she's on it.

Have you tried HA on her? The high molecular weight stuff from nutrabio might help her or Conquer.

The other herbs that have ben tried by folks here are Meadowsweet and Boswellia. Tumeric (as in PhytoQuench) Don't have the dose on the top of my fingers but can get it for you.

Have you looked at the Devil's Claw n more from Witchey lady? HAs most of the above.

Here's a message

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/131646>


Does she have heat or inflammation do you think?

Hopefully you are not here yet, but when it got really bad for Gabe, we used Naproxen Sodium (Aleve). Lots of discussion here about it in the archives.


Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "tomtriv" <ThePitchforkPrincess@...> wrote:

Hello Group
Do we know if Willow Bark is safe for IR/PIDD horses? I'm asking because the Devil's Claw I buy has an option to come with Willow Bark in it.
Case History: http://tinyurl.com/yk7mvd6
Photos: http://tinyurl.com/6h64yh
All Season Muzzle Photos: http://tinyurl.com/55c52m


Re: Keeping Weight on PPID/IR Horses

Nancy C
 

Hi Shirley

Is there a Case History link? Is it "weight" or is it muscle that is the issue?

What is the weight of the BP dry?

Are you soaking your Bermuda b/c it is high sugar? Is it tested and balanced?

Is her soreness in her feet?

Was she in any work? You may want to read "feeding laminitics back in work."

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%203%20%20CORE%20DIET%2C%20ANALYSIS%2C%20NUTRITIONAL%20NEEDS/Feeding%20Recovered%20Laminitics/>

there is a file on the ECHorsekeeping list that has compiled sources for various supplements.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHorsekeeping/files/>

Scroll down to the bottom of the page. I think they are actually looking for a volunteer to keep it updated. Maybe you'd be interested?

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Ironways" <IronwaysMastiffs@...> wrote:

Hi List,

There has been alot of talk about under weight issues lately which seems to be a new problem I am having w/Karaj my PPID/IR mare 23 yrs she is on 3mgs Pergolide just raised from 2.5 mgs mid July because I noticed some soreness also aware of the seasonal rise, not taking any chances there,

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