Date   

Re: Cato rehab

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Cato appears to be totally comfortable on soft surface now, barefoot with only his own weight, even in tight turns and yields.
Hi Melinda -

It is really easy to see your horse feeling better and then the next question just flies out of your brain...can I ride?

It is not easy to make ANY recommendations over the internet. Because the sole grows so slowly, it's pretty likely the bruising has been *trapped* in the new growth for several months as it makes its way to the surface. It doesn't mean that there is anything active right now.

But the damage to the lamina does not simply repair itself. While it's theorized some of the lamina do reestablish some connection, the majority of the healing starts at coronet band and grows downward.

Therefore, take that temptation to ride and set it aside for now. A soft sign that you can consider it (with boots/pads or extremely forgiving ground) would be comfort on all terrain while you walk him.

Without knowing exactly what happened in terms of rotation, if any, caution would be the key word.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Frustrated

Gregory Sokoloski
 

I have weaned him off all NSAIDs and GastroGard and am keeping him on deep
shavings, in rocker shoes (front only, back barefoot) and Soft Ride boots.
 

Why rocker shoes? If you have changed and tightened up his diet, fatty areas
have decreased, barefoot in the back with no problems, the only thing still
constant is the rocker shoes. These are constantly pulling the hoof apart,
keeping the connection bad.


Greg, Houston
2008

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Frustrated with my progress...

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

My frustration is this: despite the management changes, he continues to rotate and to sink, with changes evident on his weekly/bimonthly radiographs.

Hi Lisa -

Any chance you can post the rads?

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Frustrated with my progress...

Lisa S
 

I apologize in advance for removing Pookey's case history. I accidentally deleted it while trying to delete my e-mail address, and will re-post ASAP, but need advice now...

I am frustrated dealing with my 11-year-old QH gelding, who developed signs of IR this winter and foundered badly June 6. Since discovering this group a few days later, I have tightened up his diet to the following: 15 pounds/day soaked coastal bermuda, 3 ounces flax seed, handful of beet pulp (no molasses), 2 TB salt, Vit E, and a small amount of magnesium and chromium. Have not yet tested my hay, but I soak 1 hr and rinse. No grass, and the only exercise he can tolerate are careful 5-minute walks twice daily.

I have weaned him off all NSAIDs and GastroGard and am keeping him on deep shavings, in rocker shoes (front only, back barefoot) and Soft Ride boots.

After two months on the diet, Pookey Bear has lost some weight, and his fatty areas are reduced somewhat but still obvious (especially neck, over eyes, sheath)

My frustration is this: despite the management changes, he continues to rotate and to sink, with changes evident on his weekly/bimonthly radiographs.

From a theoretical standpoint, does anyone have any idea why he might be doing this, in relation to the IR and his diet/management?

I have been an RVT for many years and realize his inflammation could be due to other unidentified factors, but I do NOT want to overlook anything in his management that could be contributing to active inflammation.

Lisa, Texas - joined June 2010


Re: ODTB cubes equivalent in UK??

ferne fedeli
 

On 8/9/10, Christine <muff747@...> wrote:
Does anyone know if there is an equivalent complete feed that would only
need few extras added that is available in the UK?
Chris/Matty 07/09
I don't want to discourage you, but I haven't had much luck getting
them here in the US either--well, in coastal Northern California,
anyway. I ordered some over a month ago and the feed dealer says that
they haven't heard a thing. The manager wasn't there at the time, so
I will call him and ask again...
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


Re: Frizzer's Blood Work August

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "runwayknitting2" <runwayknitting2@...> wrote:

No his samples were not iced the first time or the last time.
In fact they were taken one day on Wednesday and not sent to the lab until Thursday.
He was not fasting he had eaten at 3 and the Vet was here at 6P.M.
Was it cooler in May? If the samples were not iced and left in ambient temps, the difference in a cool day in May and a hot day in July could be why you're seeing such low values now. I'll wait for someone else to weigh in and confirm my suspicions, but I think you would see symptoms of hypoglycemia with glucose at 43 and insulin at 2. Notice how far below the normal reference ranges these results are.

I'm surprised your vet wasn't alarmed by the numbers. It's not so much that he isn't IR anymore - they're way too low for a horse that ate a few hours before the blood draw. Maybe the samples sat overnight before being spun down and sent out?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com


Re: Skip's new bloodwork- BIG DUH!

Laurie Ball
 

Hi Linda
<OH POOH! I was combining an answer to Pam with yours. Big Duh.>

...chuckling here... I love it when people are human - it makes me feel better about being so danged human too <G>


<Let's see what those numbers are first for I and G...but the ACTH comment still holds.> < He is not on pergolide as I read the hx. I would definitely ask the vet for a course of it through fall and winter. >

Glucose= 5.3mmol/L Insulin= 108pmol/L . On his EC3 history, should I replace the older numbers, or add these below? And as for starting pergolide, any thoughts as to dose? I'm expecting some vet resistance, since he told me this morning that this 'normal' reading was as he expected, that Skip didn't 'look' like a Cushings horse to him. I think he's been humoring me... I actually work for a small animal vet, so can order through her, but she states she absolutely does not speak Horse, and I will not know what to ask for. Just covering my options here <G>

I would bring you Dr. Pepper if I could!

Laurie in OR
w/Skip, 34yo mostly QH gelding
June 2010
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Laurie%20B%20in%20OR/


Re: Farrier's Aid Equine supplement

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jtudorjones" <jtudorjones@...> wrote:

I have started my IR horse on the emergency diet. Can I continue to give him Farrier's aid or should I stop this? Does anyone know what it's sugar content is?
Are we talking about this product?
<http://www.gwfnutrition.com/prod_farriers_aid/index.htm>

The manufacturer doesn't post the carbohydrate breakdown, but since it's primarily oats with added molasses, I think we can conclude that it's higher than 10% ESC+starch.

I would quit it just because of remarkably tiny amount of minerals it provides. The recommended dose (100 grams) only provides 5 mg of copper, 30 mg of zinc and 2.5 mg of biotin. You'd have to feed it by the kilogram to get any real benefit from it.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com


Re: Chess (Spain), the complicated case.

jita.krecova <jita.krecova@...>
 

I did the glucometer this afeternoon. The owner of the stable has one and helped me. So at 4pm he got his beet pulp. At 5.06 pm he had 73. At 6.11pm had 91. At 7.12 had 43. At this time I took him back to his stable and didn´t notice that he still had some pellets hidden under the rocks in the feeder so he managed to eat them. At 8.04 pm he had then 55.

I can´t open the file about the glucometer meassaring, I think the server is too occupied so I don´t know what are these numbers telling us? Thank you very much,
Jita & Chess


Re: Frizzer's Blood Work August

runwayknitting2
 

Kathleen,
No his samples were not iced the first time or the last time.
In fact they were taken one day on Wednesday and not sent to the lab until Thursday.
He was not fasting he had eaten at 3 and the Vet was here at 6P.M.
Thanks
Pam
April 2010
Alabama

--- In EquineCushings@..., "KFG" <katmando@...> wrote:



--- In EquineCushings@..., "runwayknitting2" <runwayknitting2@> wrote:

Could someone look at Frizzer's bloodwork and tell me why in May his insulin reading was 85.0 and now is 2.1 (low) normal 5-20
Dont remember his glucose last time but it was normal.
Now it's 48 (low) normal 80-125.
The Vet says Frizzer is no longer considered IR which is such great news, just don't understand the big difference.
Assuming you didn't fast Frizzer or he wasn't off his feed for several days prior to the blood draw, the most likely explanation is that the samples weren't handled properly; not kept chilled or spun down quickly enough. Were the samples put on ice and taken back to the clinic, spun down immediately and shipped to the lab on ice?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://ecirhorse.com


Re: Introduction, question

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Betsy" <betsycam@...> wrote:

With the values of old to new hay listed below, my question is, is the new hay better? Is it better to have the overall iron lower and have a little higher NSC?

Fe: 84 mg/lb 58 mg/lb
Ca: 1.39 g/lb 1.47 g/lb
Mg: 1.05 g/lb 1.32 g/lb
Cu: 4.0 mg/lb 7.0 mg/lb
Zn: 17 mg/lb 18 mg/lb
Mn: 116 mg/lb 23 mg/lb
Betsey,

Can you post PDFs of the hay analysis to a case history? There's more to hay than minerals and carbohydrates. Basing a recommendation on only the above information would not be wise. There's protein to consider, ADF, NDF, etc. Your nutritionist should be able to counsel you based on the complete analysis. You're definitely headed in the right direction and taking a sound approach to the problem. Let's see the complete analysis on both hays and start there.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com


Re: Frizzer's Blood Work August

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Could someone look at Frizzer's bloodwork and tell me why in May his insulin reading was 85.0 and now is 2.1 (low) normal 5-20
Dont remember his glucose last time but it was normal.
Now it's 48 (low) normal 80-125.
The Vet says Frizzer is no longer considered IR which is such great news, just don't understand the big difference.

Pam - I just combined an answer to you with one to Laurie...had the bloodwork from the two horses mixed up in my brain. So much for multi-tasking at my age.

So, these insulin results are what you might get when the horse was fasted, but most likely the blood was not handled correctly - not spun/chilled/frozen, etc, or sat somewhere for too long. The real giveaway is the low glucose...

Unfortunately, this happens enough that diagnoses are missed.

Good luck with the trim visit. Frizzer will do fine. We're worried about you!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Frizzer's Blood Work August

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "runwayknitting2" <runwayknitting2@...> wrote:

Could someone look at Frizzer's bloodwork and tell me why in May his insulin reading was 85.0 and now is 2.1 (low) normal 5-20
Dont remember his glucose last time but it was normal.
Now it's 48 (low) normal 80-125.
The Vet says Frizzer is no longer considered IR which is such great news, just don't understand the big difference.
Assuming you didn't fast Frizzer or he wasn't off his feed for several days prior to the blood draw, the most likely explanation is that the samples weren't handled properly; not kept chilled or spun down quickly enough. Were the samples put on ice and taken back to the clinic, spun down immediately and shipped to the lab on ice?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://ecirhorse.com


Re: Skip's new bloodwork- BIG DUH!

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

If he was fasting, this could account for a lower insulin, but when we see insulins almost drop off the chart, it's usually due to mishandling of the blood along the way - not spun/chilled/frozen in reasonable time, sat on loading dock of lab over a weekend...etc.

OH POOH!

I was combining an answer to Pam with yours. Big Duh.

Let's see what those numbers are first for I and G...but the ACTH comment still holds.

Need some Dr Pepper...

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Skip's new bloodwork

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

When he was dx'd eight weeks ago, his G:I ratio was 3.04:1, RISQI .18... and as of last week, G:I = 6.13 and RISQI = .25.

Laurie -

What did Skip eat before the blood draw? If he was fasting, this could account for a lower insulin, but when we see insulins almost drop off the chart, it's usually due to mishandling of the blood along the way - not spun/chilled/frozen in reasonable time, sat on loading dock of lab over a weekend...etc.

A 32 for ACTH is high normal, but we have only started into the seasonal rise. It will go higher. He is 34. He is not on pergolide as I read the hx. I would definitely ask the vet for a course of it through fall and winter. We have a study, which I can't find at the moment, that shows that the biggest risk for PPID is age. My old mare is on it now as of a year (no foot issues), and when I see how she is so much younger, I sadly realize I wasn't reading her as well as I could have.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Vaxamine EQ has sugar in it?

grayarabiankasha <kvshopping@...>
 

In the ingredients for the EQ, there is a sucrose ingredient. Is there enough for it to be harmful to Cushings/IR horses? I bought the other kind, around 500 mg per tablet and used about five per dose, but I was just guessing.

What's the difference between the human kind and the EQ (besides price)?The EQ doesn't say how many mg is in each tablet. I'm getting nervous about using this product when the label on one type won't give mg info.

My horse is sore on his laminitic club foot and I'd like to help him out, so any answers (especially quick ones--please feel free to personally email me--) would be much apreciated. Thank you much.

Kathy & Kasha
SoCal
2003


Frizzer's Blood Work August

runwayknitting2
 

Could someone look at Frizzer's bloodwork and tell me why in May his insulin reading was 85.0 and now is 2.1 (low) normal 5-20
Dont remember his glucose last time but it was normal.
Now it's 48 (low) normal 80-125.
The Vet says Frizzer is no longer considered IR which is such great news, just don't understand the big difference.
I have posted his blood work in his file.
Also tomorrow is his big day for trimming with Jennifer from Tennesee.
Am nervous but at the same time I keep hearing only good things about her and hope her trim helps his soreness.
Thanks
Pam
April 2010
Alabama


Re: Press Release from Safer Grass - TX feed regulation office

Saucier Kathy
 

I checked out Katy's letter on getting the proposed new labeling accepted from this that was posted back on Friday.
http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/CarbLabels.pdf
On page 4 she lists the state feed regulatory contacts and I notice TX was not listed. Has anyone in TX pursued who this would be?
A quick search brought me to an organization called Office of the State Chemist, part of the Agri-Life system. I just sent this to Katy to see if she thinks this is the correct group. But if anyone has already searched this out & found who is the contact for feed regulation, can you let Katy know so she can add it on, and let the group know?
Thanks,
Kathy Saucier
N TX
January 2005


Re: Rafiq having problems - Monday Update (some concerns)

Shannon
 

I have a clearer picture of Rafiq's situation as of this AM, and it raises some concerns.

I spoke with the vet who has been taking care of Rafiq since Friday. He found ulcerations deep into the stomach, and along the left stomach wall. The deeper ulcerations are in a location he stated is often prone to infection, so Rafiq is on antibiotics (2x/day for 2 wks), as well as Gastroguard. The plan is to keep Rafiq on Gastroguard for a couple of weeks, then taper off, and re-check by scope. Aside from basic diet being tight as possible, what is suggested to help keep a healthy gut while on antibiotics without diminishing the antibiotics in this situation? My human go-to is acidopholis.

Rafiq's hind fetlock is not improving. The vet still thinks it is a skin issue, but it has not responded to treatment topically by the gel they were using. He does not believe Xrays or Ultrasound are necessary, but when a leg stays that lame for 6 days (with swelling) I have to wonder if it may be a hairline fracture or more serious ligament/tendon injury. Then again, I'm not sure there is anything that can be done for this sort of injury along the fetlock and pastern except rest? Rafiq is also having to compensate with his front legs, putting more pressure on the damaged hooves. Suggestions? Insights? At this point I believe that Xrays would be wise.

Finally, a quick question concerning a feed that Rafiq is on over at the hospital temporarily... (see post on Nutrena and Triple Crown post - he will soon be on TC Lite and ODTC cubes, plus free choice coastal hay). He has improved a great deal on the appetite issues, but they are currently feeding him Wendlands One 'N Only with his hay. Aside from it being described as a "complete" feed that is made up of mostly forage and grain "by-products," (something I never trust), the only information available on starch is that the NSC is 12%. No Starch + ESC percentage that I can find. Apparently Rafiq loves it. Would it be safe in small amounts until I get the cubes and TC Lite in? (Rafiq is quite thin on his topline, with some hay belly, and has had no symptoms of IR ever except one positive test when he foundered and tested positive for PPID.)

With all the stress, ulcers, and change in food - should I retest the insulin/glucose before bringing him home?


Here is the One N' Only Product info from their website:

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude protein, min 11.0%
Crude fat, min 1.5%
Crude fiber, max 23.0%
Calcium, min .40%
Calcium, max .80%
Phosphorus, min .45%
Copper, min 40 ppm
Selenium .30 ppm
Zinc, min 160 ppm
Vitamin A,min4,000 IU/lb

Ingredients:
Grain products, Processed grain by-products, Roughage products (27%), Forage products, Plant protein products, Salt, Calcium carbonate, Monocalcium phosphate, L-lysine, di-Methionine, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, Choline chloride, Vitamin b12 supplement, Riboflavin supplement, Niacin supplement, Calcium pantothenate, Menadione sodium bisulfite complex, Thiamine mononitrate, d-biotin, Folic acid, Pyridoxine hydrochloride, Potassium sulfate, Potssium chloride, Magnesium sulfate, Magnesium oxide, Ferrous sulfate, Zinc oxide, Manganous oxide, Copper sulfate, Ethylenediamine dihydriodide, Sodium selenite and Artificial flavors.

I'm driving out to take a look at him myself in a couple hours. (Babysitting niece at the moment.) I'm going to bring along some of the Wellsolve L/S to see if his appetite is improved for everything and the One N' Only is just being eaten b/c of that.

Meanwhile, my brain is doing pretzel twists, LOL.

Shannon, Rafiq, and Majik
Houston 2009

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Shannon" <skgserenity@...> wrote:

UPDATE:

Got pretty good news from the vet this AM. The endoscopy revealed mild inflammation and mild ulceration at worst.


Skip's new bloodwork

Laurie Ball
 

I just got a call from the vet with results of Skip's recent blood draw. (and boy am I glad to have found the IR calculator in the files!) When he was dx'd eight weeks ago, his G:I ratio was 3.04:1, RISQI .18... and as of last week, G:I = 6.13 and RISQI = .25. So YES!!! we have graduated to Compensated IR w/laminitis risk, instead of Uncompensated/Severe, and I am definitely feeling relieved about that! I don't think the vet is quite on the same page, though, as he's looking at the numbers falling in the Normal range, and calling it good. ACTH was 32, <ref range 9-35, though I don't know units - fax hasn't come through yet> and he's calling that normal too. But is it??? Part of me was actually hoping for something more glaringly Cushingoid, so there was more in the way of treatment available... he desperately wants to be a pasture horse again, instead of a dry turn-out boy. The vet spoke of possible protecting him with thyroid hormone, even though his T4 was normal - what are thoughts on that here? Somehow, I'm trusting the collective opinions here more these days... you are all such a valuable resource and sounding board!

With appreciation -
Laurie in OR
w/Skip, 34yo mostly QH gelding
June 2010
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Laurie%20B%20in%20OR/

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