I've read a few posts referring to iron levels being a concern for IR horses. If well water is high in iron, is it likely cause for concern and testing?

Kristi

--- In EquineCushings@..., Kristi Skarbovig <mymuleys@...> wrote:

<The key to helping resolve this is managing the insulin surges.  From stress, pain, etc.  all play a role...>

Kristi

I appreciate the encouragement and advice. I am now very hopeful that relieving some of the pressure in that right hoof might help with the pain, and, thus, the IR. I really appreciate the posters who have mentioned that stress and pain will 'feed' the IR. I sort of felt that intuitively, but have no prior experience with IR (in horses) so appreciate everyone sharing.

Your horse's story is very encouraging and I will keep hangin' in there!

Lisa in Texas -- Pookey Bear
Joined June 2010

A correction, please....

The balanced cubes are Ontario Dehy Timothy Balanced Cubes. You want the Purple label. Unless I missed the sale of the company, Ontario Dehy is not Triple Crown.

<http://www.ontariodehy.com/tab02-07.htm>

A further comment about temporary measures, ie, Target IR and Emergency diet....

Just like taking digital photographs of the feet to see what's really going on - once one moves to a tightly balanced diet one is equally as gobsmacked by just how good their horses can be.


Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

I talked with a marketing rep at the Tractor Supply Company headquarters about the Triple Crown products since they are the listed dealers in the state of Tennessee for Nutrena. I had called my local Tractor Supply and she said it was not on her order list and they would not be carrying it so I called the main office.   She said while yes Tractor Supply is a Nutrena retailer they are not a Nutrena dealer and will not be carrying the Triple Crown line...bummer...I emailed Nutrena to see what they had to say and have a call in to Triple Crown but have not heard back from them.  We will continue to get our Triple Crown from AgriFeed here until they are no longer able to receive the products.

Judy of Knoxville, TN

August 2007







Judy Zachary

"Yesterday is history, Tomorrow's a mystery.

Today is a gift; that's why they call it "the Present".

"Happiness is often the result of being too busy to be miserable."

www.zacharyfarms.com

www.marewatch.com






Judy Zachary

"Yesterday is history, Tomorrow's a mystery.

Today is a gift; that's why they call it "the Present".

"Happiness is often the result of being too busy to be miserable."

www.zacharyfarms.com

www.marewatch.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just wanted to add that I was able to order ODTBC from my Nutrena Feed store near Austin, TX this morning - Elgin General Store special ordered me some while I was there. They called Cargill and asked, and they said it was a special order, but would take only a week to come in.

Happy days! This will save me from driving an hour either east or west of where I live.

Elizabeth & Arthur
Austin, TX 2009

Hi Kathy and Everyone,
My feed dealer just got some ODTB cubes in for me - I haven't been able to
get them for quite a while - I'm so pleased to have them again! And, I'm
thrilled that the cubes are smaller and much softer than they were in the
past. My ponies love them!

Anna, Skipper and Capri
College Station, TX

I have a suggestion. If you have a lot of people in one area, and can come
up with the money to purchase a truck load from the distributor, has anyone
thought of going in together to order a truck load? You could have it
dropped at a central location, preferably someone that has a place to put it
out of the weather, and everyone can pick up their "portion". I've thought
about doing this myself with products I have had issues finding in the past.
Also, if TSC gets enough requests for something, they WILL start carrying
it. That is what happened with the StandLee Beet Pulp Pellets. They had
quite a few requests for it across the country, and since they already carried
their hay products (bales) they started carrying the bagged products as
well. Now we all have a good supply of beet pulp pellets, and more
horse/livestock people are finding out the benefits of the pellets versus the shreds.
Just a suggestion, and hopefully something that can be beneficial to many.

Audra
FL

Hi Mandy,
not much progress with the labs. I had written to an other 3 aswell. Got answer from one of them that they work only with vets. So I´ve tried to explain, that my vet will do the test but no respond YET. The thing is that is August, the all Spain is one month on vacation. So I guess I´ll have to wait for my vet to come back and let´s see what he will say.
The glucometer reading was in mg/dL. I´m glad that I did this measuring, so I can see that he really has a glucose in his blood, not like my vet saying that is strange that no glucose level and to give the stupid sugar in to his food.
Chess was a bit down today. But I think it´s because of the weather. We have Kalima wave again, so it´s 70ºF and air full of dust and sand from Sahara desert. It´s gonna get worst in the coming days. He is peeing very yellow, not clear stream like usually, is it bcs of the heat aswell??
About the strangles. The new wat was saying that it could be. My normal vet that is nothing. So when he comes back I´ll be preasuring him. How can you actually find out that it is Strangles?
Sorry for so many question again and again. You are amazing.
Regards Jita & Chess

I came on this message board asking for help with a problem, not looking for
criticism or feeling that I have to defend my veterinarian and farrier, who are
unquestionably among the best in the country.

Yes, we all have attempted to follow the latest and greatest findings of major
universities, vet schools, vets, farriers and that is why we go here. I am
starting to see some of the major vet schools, farriers, vets and feed
companies changing for the better, but this still means people will follow what
we all have followed for a long time. Change, like with our horses and healing,
will take sometime.


Never critisized. You wanted info for your horse and the situation at hand,
which means most of the time with this group it goes completely against what the
professionals and our years of experience with horses have told us to do.
Sometimes we do not like to hear we have followed this info based on years of
experience only to find out we should have been doing it differently and we were
getting bad info. I know just by following this group that we are getting loads
of better info for our horses than most vets, farriers, vet schools and
experienced horse people have given over the years. I know I have listened to
vets and farriers for a long time and now will go to others for info on treating
hoof, IR and Cushings problems. If you also go look, most vet schools ciriculums
have not changed much over the years, again why would this good info we recieve
here not be part of all vet schools protocols for IR and Cushings horses? Why do
we have to go to a yahoogroup to get better info and protocol's for our sick
horses than when we call our vets or farriers out?

Yes, dealing with a sick horse and having to go to a yahoogroup for info and
treatments would upset alot of vets and farriers, but I am not worried about how
my vet or farrier feels, just getting my horses to feel better.

Greg, Houston
2008

As someone who is currently using it, I've found it to be a good stop-gap for a boarding situation where the hay changes with every truckload. I have additional supplements for things specific to my situation, and now I'm much closer than before to getting the hay:minerals balanced for a tight fit.

In a situation where I needed something to hold me over, Target IR is much better than other vitamin/mineral balancers on the market. But I intend it for only the time period in which I can not get a balance on the hay. It is a situation I thought could not be resolved, and now it IS being worked on through the requests of many boarders and the new availability of Triple Crown's ODTC cubes through Nutrena. (They are pre-balanced, and only need Vitamin E, Flax, and salt added.)

Take care!

Shannon, Rafiq, Majik
Houston 2009

I believe that Nutrena was chosen as the distributor b/c of their widespread coverage across most of the U.S. - definitely made my opinion improve on them - for this LINE of products at least. Nothing will change about the feeds and cubes, just their availability will grow. Purina has a serious competitor now.

Here is a FAQ about the changes on Triple Crown distributors: http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/article/triple-crown-feed-dealer-changes-faq

And here is a link with a map that shows where Nutrena is now the supplier: http://www.nutrenaworld.com/nutrena/Triple-Crown-Feed/Triple-Crown-Horse-Feed-Map/index.jsp

The states include: Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, North Dakota, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Nevada, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.

And YES, things are definitely looking up for our boarding situation on the nutrition front!

Happy Trails

Shannon, Rafiq and Majik
Houston 2009

I brought Rafiq home this AM armed with Gastroguard, antibiotics, and a bandaged hindleg. Apparently Rafiq's fetlock injury became infected (surface/skin), so we are now treating him with topical antifungal. He was almost back to normal on that hindleg. Even more amazing is that he is walking SOUND on the front right leg for the first time in months. I did not try to trot him, but he was striding out and feeling good - so I'm a super-happy human at the moment. He had no problem making tight turns either. Wow.

The Gastroguard is already doing its job. Rafiq is happily munching on his hay, and even ate some of the Purina WellSolve without hesitation (very small amount at the moment). The stomach issues must have really been irritating him. He's bright-eyed, quite full of himself, and socializing quite a bit.

The supplements (how I give them to him) will still be something we need to figure out, but he looks so much better since Friday. I'll be watching him carefully for further issues with the heat. At the end of the gastroguard, the vet wants to scope to be certain that we got it all (about a month). Other than that, for once it seems like I have nothing but good news after many hours in the heat and returning from the vet... that is a feeling I'd forgotten about! LOL!

Thank you all for the support over these recent days especially. Acute situation now managable, and because of the situation, I found out about Nutrena bringing TC products to our local feed stores. Tighter diet in the works! :)

*Hugs and Nickers all around*

Shannon, Rafiq and Majik (who missed Rafiq)
Houston 2009

Tonya,

I'm so sorry to hear this. I was so hoping to hear that the vets at the clinic managed to figure it out.

Majestic knew how much you loved him. Fly free Majestic.

Joan and Dazzle
EC Primary Response Team
Anaheim, CA 2006

I am so sorry Tonya. Your heart must be breaking.

Thinking of you

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Hi Jane

I know how you feel. I have a guy who blows up his neck at the drop of a hat.

Here are some ideas.

Could be the hay is not low enough even if you are soaking. The group has found most horses do best on less than 10 percent.
Could be the relationship of the starch to the sugar. You probably know starch does not soak out.
Could be temperature change
Could be foot issues, ie too long from trim.
Could be uncontrolled PPID or Lyme or iron overload other undiagnosed health issues
Could be start of seasonal rise
Could be stealing green stuff when you aren't watching
Could be a combo of above.

It takes a lot of detective work sometimes and can be frustrating. Going back and reviewing each section of DDT+E protocol as it relates to Miss Kitty can help sort things out.

I'd suggest Patti's post on keeping track of symptoms so you can parse this out. It's origin is about pergolide increase but the scale of symptoms can be used for a variety of issues.

Increase Pergolide Message (Scale of Symptoms) by Patti
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/111988

I'd also make sure your trim is spot on balanced.

Good visuals for a balanced hoof
http://www.barefoottrim.com/2007/balance/balance.htm

Here's more info on seasonal rise. Note the list of symptoms in the last paragraph at the bottom and see if any others apply to you.

<http://www.ecirhorse.com/index.php/seasonalrise>

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Shannon, that is great news!! I may just change my opinion of Nutrena if they are distributors for TC feeds & the ODTB cubes. And great news for everyone around our state since there are a lot of Nutrena distributors.

And you and the other boarders keep working on the barn owner. I am so happy for you & the other boarders with IR horses.
I hope Susie Gordon sees this to get the source list updated.
Kathy
N TX
Jan 2005

Thanks, Linda. So, quit worrying about giving Cato more exercise and ride the other guy. Wait until I see the angle of the new growth at the coronet band (same old angle = proceed gradually)? Until I see some cancavity returning?

Yes - sounds great. You just need to set Cato's clock to Tahoe time (that means going at your own pace around here!)

Since you have two horses, you can certainly start ponying Cato when you see some better form and tolerance. Put him in some boots/pads and have some fun! Pap seemed to enjoy these little excursions.

Can I count on pain to keep Cato from doing damage to himself in that situation, or should I just be happy keeping him isolated for now?

No - often if they feel reasonably comfortable they'll go yahooing around and then pay for it. It's a fine line for you to decide between protecting him and letting him do what he can do. If you do let him out, I would put him in boots/pads. They might make him feel really good, but they will also give him support and protection. Once he gets past the urge to run amok, he'll settle down.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

Hi, Lisa
My name is Kristi.  I live in Cleveland, Tx and know exactly what you are going
through right now.  My 4 yr. old mare came down with laminitis in August 2008. 
I first thought it was just a case of heat stress laminitis and so did my vet
and farrier.  We placed her in heartbars shoes and several times tried Equipak
with the heartbars.  Long story short.  I too got to the point with the rotation
that I considered the tennotomy.  I took her in and my vet x-rayed before the
surgery.  He called and said that her alignment was improving and that the
surgery was not needed.  He did cut her toe way back and released lots of
infected material from the left front...it's her worst.  That was in Sept.
2009.  About christmas time I decided that I would try light exercise and maybe
ride her some.  It was the best christmas present I gave myself.  Things went
along fine for 5 months until june 2010 and she had another episode with mild
rotation.  I'm still battling with sore feet, she's still on 1/2 gm bute twice a
day and the diet management program recommended by Dr. Kellon.  My point is do
not give up.  It is a long road, but with your vet, farrier and the diet changes
you will see improvment; slow as it is.  The key to helping resolve this is
managing the insulin surges.  From stress, pain, etc.  all play a role in
starting the roller coaster ride: one day it's good and you think it's over,
then slam you get hit with another setback.  I too am a vet tech and beat myself
up that I can't "fix" this.  Just know that you are doing what is best for your
horse and your efforts will pay off.

Kristi




________________________________
From: Lisa <mostlyaggies@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 3:32:53 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Frustrated with my progress...

 
I apologize in advance for removing Pookey's case history. I accidentally
deleted it while trying to delete my e-mail address, and will re-post ASAP, but
need advice now...

I am frustrated dealing with my 11-year-old QH gelding, who developed signs of
IR this winter and foundered badly June 6. Since discovering this group a few
days later, I have tightened up his diet to the following: 15 pounds/day soaked
coastal bermuda, 3 ounces flax seed, handful of beet pulp (no molasses), 2 TB
salt, Vit E, and a small amount of magnesium and chromium. Have not yet tested
my hay, but I soak 1 hr and rinse. No grass, and the only exercise he can
tolerate are careful 5-minute walks twice daily.


I have weaned him off all NSAIDs and GastroGard and am keeping him on deep
shavings, in rocker shoes (front only, back barefoot) and Soft Ride boots.

After two months on the diet, Pookey Bear has lost some weight, and his fatty
areas are reduced somewhat but still obvious (especially neck, over eyes,
sheath)


My frustration is this: despite the management changes, he continues to rotate
and to sink, with changes evident on his weekly/bimonthly radiographs.


From a theoretical standpoint, does anyone have any idea why he might be doing
this, in relation to the IR and his diet/management?


I have been an RVT for many years and realize his inflammation could be due to
other unidentified factors, but I do NOT want to overlook anything in his
management that could be contributing to active inflammation.

Lisa, Texas - joined June 2010

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Linda" <PapBallou@...> wrote:

But the damage to the lamina does not simply repair itself. While it's theorized some of the lamina do reestablish some connection, the majority of the healing starts at coronet band and grows downward.

Without knowing exactly what happened in terms of rotation, if any, caution would be the key word.

Thanks, Linda. So, quit worrying about giving Cato more exercise and ride the other guy. Wait until I see the angle of the new growth at the coronet band (same old angle = proceed gradually)? Until I see some cancavity returning? He's already tolerating varied surfaces between barn and round pen - a little gingerly, but a month ago he would push/pull me in a long path around them . . . and he's not a "pusher". Will also wait for total comfort on those . . . . I'd like to block his GM and put him in the pasture with the other guys for some of the day soon, but that quickly escalates to running, kicking, rearing (Cato tries to rub his muzzle off on another horse, that horse can't bite him because he has a muzzle on, too, and the chase is on). Can I count on pain to keep Cato from doing damage to himself in that situation, or should I just be happy keeping him isolated for now?

Melinda and Cato in Indy
March 2009

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Eric" <eastrup@...> wrote:

That does help. Overall I thought it looked pretty good, but wanted to confirm.By the way how much zinc and copper do you think?

Thanks again,

Leah Astrup
Michigan
June 2007

Hi Leah,

I would be glad to help you more with your mineral balancing but I would need a little more info. If you could fill out a Case History on your horse and post a copy of your Hay Analysis on the ECHistory3 site then that would really give me more to work with.

I would be reluctant to proceed without the complete picture.

If you can't get the info posted to the EC History site just ask for help. I am sure someone will guide you through the process.

If all else fails just send the info to my private email.

Jennie Hollis
ECHorsekeeping
GA
Oct,2007