Re: advice


Hi Mandy,
Thanks for the suggestions and here is the next round of questions.
Are there any benefits to feeding grape seed extract or ginseng?
What is magnesium for and how much do I feed?
Do the vitamin E capsules have oil in them or does that have to be added when feeding?
Any ideas on soaking hay in below freezing temps? Do I really need to if there are no signs of IR?
Mill has been underweight since fall. She has no signs of laminitis and is barefoot and trimmed every 8 weeks. Fecal egg counts are performed year round and she was dewormed in Dec. after a run of freezing weather with Zimectrin Gold. I have APF on order and will start that soon. My hay supplier tests his crop and I am waiting on the results. I hope it will tell us what we need to know.

Jennifer in TN with Millionairess
Jan 2011


Linda Rollins <lindarollins38@...>

I am posting this for a friend of mine, and the barn manger where Peanut lives.

She's in the, "I can't do this, I can't do that" mode. I told her she CAN and HAS to make changes. She at LEAST called me, but I told her I would pass this on to the gurus and see if someone else can get through to her. She's very, very old school, as you will see from her story. Bonjour has been on grass right up until this recent bout. He is stall-bound, she freaks out when he lies down, but then tranqulizes him so he'll lie down, then has him on bute to make him stand up. (ARGH!!!!) Naturally, I told her to stop the bute, banamine and LET him lie down. She's ordering cubes tomorrow (at least she heard that!) I did get her to switch from liquid pergolide to caps last year - finally.

ACTH went to Antech. I told her to ACTH, insulin & Glucose at Cornell this week. She is very resisnat to change, but has at least reached out because she sees her horse suffering. Also told her to pull those shoes, that she just spent a small fortune hammering on those poor, sore feet.
Visit our site:
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Linda in MA, Peanut in CT - 09.07

----- Forwarded Message -----
To: lindarollins38@...
Sent: Sunday, February 6, 2011 3:57:03 PM
Subject: bonjour

He started about 4 weeks ago slightly foot sore after a warm day then the next
day frozen ground.
He didnt get better just keep getting worse. My vet xrayed him soles are close to ground long toes and his right front may have 2 degrees rotation. He was already on cimeditine trying to help with his melanomas. He eats triple crown
safe starch dengie and he was on purina senior but i switched him to purina low starch very small handful with his pergolide. He was getting 1 mg pergolide. In july 2010 his ACTH 63.6 we increased perg to 1.25mg.

Did new ACTH 98.8 increased perg to 1.75mg. Took more xrays no change. He is on cimeditine, ixsosuprine, 750lb banamine 2x aday and 1 gram bute 2x a day. Was on 900lb banamine just lowered it. He got his feet trimed and heart bar shoes. Walking slightly better with new shoes. He hasnever been able to go
without shoes.

He is 1989 arabian gelding. I just ordered the soft ride boots. I hgave owned him for 16yrs and never seem him lay down. He lays down every night now. The digtal pulses were real strong in beginning now much less.

Re: Breeding a Mare with Cushings


Thank-you Lavinia,

That helps me to understand better.

I am just geussing on the amount of hay, she does share hay with my Mini mares twice a day, and gets her own flake in her stall at night. I am looking into getting a scales to better manage hay.

I'm feeding electrolytes because of our crazy winter weather, trying to keep everyone drinking to avoid a colic, and because they won't eat plain salt in their feed.

Lots to think over, I appreciate your help.

Kim L
Lancaster, PA
Aug. 2010

thyro L


Good Morning, Is anyone using/need THYRO L? After a recheck of Louie's levels, the vet has taken him off of the THYRO L. I just purchased it and used only 3 doses from it. I paid $35 for it and need to sell it. I am asking $30 but will pay the shipping to get it to you.

Brainstorming for fat mare with ulcers

merlin5clougher <clougher@...>

Hi, all: I am hoping for some ideas to help kickstart my brain with regards to my fat pony mare. She is Cushings and IR; she also has presumed ulcers (due to illness on my part in December, so they only got hay morning and evening) and is currently on omeprazole for that (ulcer symptoms improving)

The other two horses in with her are just about the right weight; Maggie is a barrel. She is also a pig in a horse suit, which is what tipped me off on the ulcers - she started refusing her beet pulp. They are fed their soaked hay in nibble nets (with a little on the ground), and so only have a few hours at most without hay in front of them - most days, there is still a little hay in the nets when it is time to feed again. I am concerned about food restriction because of the ulcers (and because the other two horses are not overweight at this time) There's been no exercise except 24 hour turn-out in 3 acre dry lot, because of icy conditions for the last 4 weeks. However, we just got a nice load of snow (11") so hopefully I can at least start hand-walking her soon.

Separating the horses is not an option at this time, because of the icy conditions - the old boy, Merlin, would rush around like a loony, and at age 30 can't afford a slip on the ice. I can definitely separate them when the footing gets better, though.

I know I am not the only person who has ever had this situation; right now I think I am too close to the problem, and can't see the forest for the trees. What have other people done? All and any ideas gratefully accepted.


Jaini (BVSc)Merlin, Maggie, Gypsy
EC Support

link to history:

Re: Mona - Hoof Photos

Lorna <briars@...>

Hi Stephanie,

Just so we're clear,I'm about as far away as one can get from being a hoof expert.But I'm finding that I actually am teachable.

And I agree with you,these feet are in need of an immediate trim.I hope this is going to happen sooner rather than later.

And again,agree with you about the toes.They really need to come back.

If you can take pix on a clean ,level surface it allows a better view of the entire hoof,especially where it meets the ground.

Lorna in Ontario

WOW this group is doing such a good job making the owner's work "do-able"

congleton <juliecongleton@...>

I have just been walking through the process of doing some bloodwork and starting a file on a new horse and I have to say WOW everything is so easy to navigate and work forward:) I sort of "know" how to do what I need to do, but I need to refresh myself as I get started. I will be asking for help.
julie, north carolina, 9/07

need simple boots


First I want to say a big THANK YOU to everyone on this list, for all of your knowledge that I am absorbing to help my Louie!!
Next I am putting out a shameless WANT AD for a pair of black Cavallo Simple Boots in a size 4. I think these would really help Louie and thought maybe I could buy them from someone on the list. So, if you have a pair that you would want to sell, please email me.
Again, thank you to all of the responders and to those asking for help. We all can learn from each others situations.....I sure am!

Re: Threat of laminitis gone?

merlin5clougher <clougher@...>

Hi, Chris -

There was a couple of questions in there which are puzzling me. How come he wasn't showing any signs of footiness **before** the move if he is THAT sensitive? (The adjusted normal was <29 - not 20 as you put in a previous answer.)
****The stress of the move could easily increase his circulating cortisol, which would be already high due to uncontrolled PPID. An ACTH of 37.7 is still WELL OVER the seasonal normal of 29, MORE THAN ENOUGH to cause problems when other factors are thrown into the mix (like moving yards, changing foods etc)

Matty's PPID has been uncotrolled for a long time, with the ACTH number climbing in March 2010 (45) from what it was in Jan (41). That points to his seasonal rise being long and slow to abate. PPID is progressive - it won't get better - so control dose of perg should never go below the 2mg you were giving in June 2010 during the summer seasonal low.

It is important keep up with, if not ahead of, the seasonal rise starting in late July/early Aug by raising the perg dose and keeping it up until at least March as Matty's rise is documented to be long, high and hard to control. Sometimes this requires at least doubling the non-seasonal rise doseage. Doubling the dose does not mean adding another dose/day - 2.5mg/2x/day does not equate to 5mg/day (this from Matty's history). Splitting the dose from 3mg/1x/day to 1.5mg/2x/day in Nov 09 just after moving him for the second time in a month during the seasonal rise may have been counterproductive. We know trim wasn't good at that point and ACTH was undercontrolled. Unfortunately, we don't have enough information to definitively say that one should dose either once daily or twice daily - it seems to depend on the horse. Given that Matty is not doing well right now on twice daily dosing, I would suggest increasing pergolide to AT LEAST 3.5 - 4 mg in the evening, and testing ACTH.*****

Please can you answer my questions - I have asked many in my posts but they seem to get missed - then your answers pose more questions because they don't tie in with the evidence I have in front of my eyes.<<

****Which questions are not getting answered? We know what Matty needs: adequate amounts of pergolide (perhaps at one dose daily instead of 2); balanced, low starch,low sugar diet (which you are trying to implement); proper trim (hasn't happened yet); appropriate exercise. He is footy because these issues are not being addressed. Halfway measures get halfway results. Also, I just learned that Fibrebeet has oat fibre and alfalfa in it - is this true? If so, it ain't a good carrier. That information about alfalfa and high starch products is in the files. Sorry I missed the thing about the Fibrebeet - I assumed it was just Speedibeet. I do realize that your posts do not always get answered immediately - the volunteers here also have jobs, families, and compromised horses to look after, plus the ones in the Eastern US are, yet again, digging out from under a big storm. We all just do the best we can, with the information we are give.*****

I also asked in a previous post when Nancy answered if she thought I should get him tested for IR again. Can a PPID horse look completely normal and still be IR, what are the indications that he could be IR? Is it ONLY the footiness?<<

*****Yes, he should have blood drawn for insulin, glucose and ACTH, now would be a good time. Non-fasting, (hay or haylage only), low stress conditions. Blood to be spun ASAP, and sent out frozen. It is more usual for IR horses to have some fatty deposits over the eyes and on the crest, but horses don't read the texts: advanced PPID horses with IR can present as thin,or normal weight, with no fat deposits.****

***I understand Matty is starting to feel a bit better - don't give up now - he needs you to be his advocate, to feed and medicate him properly. He is counting on you.****

Jaini (BVSC)and crew
EC Support

Re: Threat of laminitis gone?


There was a couple of questions in there which are puzzling me. How come he wasn't showing any signs of footiness **before** the move if he is THAT sensitive? (The adjusted normal was <29 - not 20 as you put in a previous answer.)
Please can you answer my questions - I have asked many in my posts but they seem to get missed - then your answers pose more questions because they don't tie in with the evidence I have in front of my eyes.
I also asked in a previous post when Nancy answered if she thought I should get him tested for IR again. Can a PPID horse look completely normal and still be IR, what are the indications that he could be IR? Is it ONLY the footiness?
Chris/Matty UK 07/09

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Christine" <muff747@...> wrote:
but he stayed that well right up until the move in early December - no sign of footiness at all - surely his ACTH would have been rising since the Autumn and wouldn't jump up suddenly - unless the stress would cause that?
His ACTH should be under control now, he was only slightly over normal. I am hoping also that it should be coming down naturally by now?

Re: Mona - Hoof Photos

Lorna <briars@...>

Stephanie,thanks SO MUCH for posting the link !

You beat me to it.I was just going to drop you a note asking for same.

People are really,really busy these days,but wanting to see the pictures that are posted.

So giving us the link,or the link to case histories,too,makes a world of difference.

It could mean the difference between people leaving the pix til later when they have more time,and people getting back to the poster right away,because they just had to click on your link.

I hope everyone is reading this.:)

Finger prepared to click on your link.

Lorna in Ontario

--- In EquineCushings@..., "shadow111876" <ssexton1@...> wrote:

Here is the link for the photos in ECHoof (folder name Stephanie & Mona). Tried to crop them a bit.

Stephanie & Mona
Oct 2010

Re: Mona - Hoof Photos

shadow111876 <ssexton1@...>

Here is the link for the photos in ECHoof (folder name Stephanie & Mona). Tried to crop them a bit.

Stephanie & Mona
Oct 2010

Re: Hay testing?

stc4qh <stc4qh@...>

Joan, for those who are coming here for the first time or have been a member for awhile, the information about how important the differences are between wet-chemistry and NIR are great decision makers. I don't remember anyone telling me that for Gacy's sake I should use #603 because of the variances. It is overwhelming to say the least when we are trying to learn everything dealing with special diets and some with foundered hooves. Like I said to Kathleen, we should have this information put in a folder in the Files. I've been here for awhile and I'm still learning. I know I was told to use #603 but not told why. So when I received the packet from EA, I reviewed the choices and went with #601 simply because of the cost. Our minds are so cluttered and overwhelmed and I've never been a science person so I didn't understand the differences in the analysis packages. Not to mention the trouble we have dealing with vets who don't know what I'm talking about regarding tests. Won't even mention trimmers/farriers. I'm glad to have had these discussions.

Jackie and Gacy
Iowa and Indiana

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Joan and Dazzle" <horsies4luv@...> wrote:

Hi Diana,

Re: haylege analysis


thank you :)

i think because i have a "visiable" "taunt" staring at me all hte time i am with my girls in the form of their cresty necks, merri (cushings) has got really lumpy now, and crystal's (IR) is so heavy it almost falls over (but her cribbing obviously adds to that)

but yes, i do tend to try and do everything at once and then get frustrated, thanks again for your helpful words

raychell, uk, oct 2010, merri (cushings) crystal (ir)

Mona - Hoof Photos

shadow111876 <ssexton1@...>

I took some new photos of Mona's front feet yesterday. To my experience, they are long right now and I have her on the list for a trim. I'm not sure about the hoof angle and would love some input. The toe seems to be long for me.

Stephanie & Mona
Oct 2010

Re: Hay testing?


--- In EquineCushings@..., "stc4qh" <stc4qh@...> wrote:

We need this information in the Files, this way when one goes to find information, they can make their decision based on known facts.
Thanks for your feedback. Too bad we can't all take a field trip to Equi-Analytical and see how it's done. These things can be difficult to explain in writing but understanding that one is measured (#603) and one is predicted (#601) really cleared it up for me. That plus Joan's explanation of the variability and the tutorial on uses and abuses of NIR (see message #150405 for the link) gave me a better understanding.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
ECIR Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005

Re: Breeding a Mare with Cushings

Lavinia <dnlf@...>

If Estina is doing well now (healthy coat, not acting starving, etc) I thought she was doing well and this diet is fine? I'm working on a very limited budget, so I can't afford all the testing (for Cushings/IR/Testing hay). I have pretty much kept her off pasture, even an hour seems to increase her DP
I do have a farrier coming out on Thursday to help get me on track with her, I'm having trouble with her angles.
Hi Kim,
It's great that Estina is doing better. Keeping her off pasture and feeding at least 3x/day are good. Working with a farrier to address her hoof issues is good. Getting her from a BCS of 9 to 6 is great. Feeding hay/no grain is a plus. That the hay is untested and unsoaked, not so good. This is where the halfway measures get halfway results comes in.
The fact that an hour of pasture immediately results in her having DP points to the fact that she is only barely avoiding a crisis situation. Her BCS of 6 should really be a 5, especially for a pony. The 15 lbs of hay needed to satisfy her appetite/needs is a significant amount as for her size no more than 11 lbs would be expected. At her age (is 16 a definite?) PPID is a consideration but not a certainty and the majority of the symptoms you are seeing point to IR being the biggest issue, esp. with her being a pony. This is treated thru diet not meds. Using any med unneccessarily is not recommended and without a definitive diagnosis of PPID the pergolide is questionable. The TC 30, Remission, electrolytes, MSM and himalayan salt block are expensive shots in the dark to attempt to provide her with what she needs to be healthy.
Soaking her hay is a PIA, esp in winter, but doesn't cost you and will lower the unknown s/s in your hay. Better would be to test the hay and balance your supplements to the assay. This is beneficial to your entire herd and will save you money by not spending on unnecessary supplements and additives and in lower vet bills because your animals are healthier. The Trainor #603 from Equi-Analytical only costs $49. I tbsp of iodized table salt is a lot cheaper than commercial electrolyte mixes and himalayan salt blocks and provides the definite items missing in a horse's diet - salt and iodine. Same rationale for the vit E gelcaps, ground flax and mag ox.
I know the blood testing can get expensive. I used to have 2 IR/PPID boys and had to plan how and when I could manage to do periodic bloodwork to keep tabs on things. If you can, plan to do an eACTH in April and just forgo the IR testing for now but treat/feed her like she is IR. This can't hurt and most definitely will help.
Could you please add your date of joining to your posts so that we know where you are in your learning curve. Adding your location helps us to know what local help/supplies may be available. Thanks.

Lavinia, both Nappi and George over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

Re: Threat of laminitis gone?

merlin5clougher <clougher@...>

Excellent, Chris! Keep on with the 2.5 mg am/ 3 mg pm and let us know how he does. If he continues to improve, great - if not, we could try increasing the pergolide again. Matty was actually more than just slightly over normal on his last ACTH - more than enough to cause problems, especially when we know these Cushings horses can be so very sensitive to any increase in ACTH.

The trimmer came Thursday morning and backed the toes as far as poss without making him more footy. He certainly isn't any worse but this morning.

I am also trying to impress on the BO how important it is to get him out in the bare paddock every day. She is more worried about mud fever and her horses only get out when the weather's fine! This is a problem for me because Matty will not settle out on his own. Hopefully I have got the message across to her today.
Also, great! Keep up the good fight for your boy! Here is the link to "Pulling it all together" - check out the folder on Barn Owners.


Jaini(BVSc)and crew
EC Support

Matty's history:

Re: Hay testing?

stc4qh <stc4qh@...>

Kathleen, thank you for breaking down the formula equi-analytical uses for #601 and #603. This is the very first time seeing this information, imo, this is very important. When I first came to this forum, I was told to use #603, don't remember if there were any specific reasons to do so. I am becoming wiser in my older age to investigate more, that is why I called equi-analytical. How was I to know I had to talk to a person "in charge". I've been led down the wrong road too many times regarding Gacy's care.

Quote from message #116262 "This means that an actual ESC of 6.0 can be come out on the NIR testing as 5.05 or as 6.95 for the majority of the samples."

Your statement in this post, "For labs like Dairy One/Equi-Analytical that have hundreds of thousands of samples and continuously calibrate and update their prediction equations and are certified for wet chemistry and NIR, we should expect comparable results for west chemistry vs. NIR."

We need this information in the Files, this way when one goes to find information, they can make their decision based on known facts.

Thank you.

Jackie and Gacy
Iowa and Indiana

--- In EquineCushings@..., "KFG" <katmando@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Fantov/Rooklidge" <crni@> wrote:

Re: Hay testing?

Joan and Dazzle

Hi Diana,

The question is, what level of accuracy do you want? How big of a risk do you want to take that the testing methodolgy is wrong? If a 2% difference in sugar alone, plus an additional 1-2% difference in starch is an acceptable level of inaccuracy, then by all means go for the less expensive test. For my little Dazzle, a possible error of 4% is not acceptable in the sugar starch levels.

I, too, was very concerned about this very thing. I called Equi-Analytical. Chris was very helpful, but didn't give me any detailed information. I spoke with Paul, the manager and wrote up what he had to say.

Below is my entire post of post 116262 regarding this. Perhaps our concern will make more sense after you read throught this post.


Post 116262:

Great post Donna,

This is a typical demonstration of one of the flaws of NIR.

I followed up with Paul at Equi-Analytical regarding the NIR vs wet chem testing.

This is what he explained to me:

The certification process for NIR only looks at 4 things: Dry matter, crude protein, ADF, NDF.

When you request a package 601, you get the following analyzed by NIR: Crude protein, ADF, NDF, starch, ESC, WSC, Fat and Ash (which are the organic components). In that same package, the following are analyzed by wet chem: Calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium, iron, zinc, copper, manganese, and molybdenum.

In the package 603, all components are analyzed by wet chem.

So then, the question becomes, what's the accuracy of the NIR testing? The way that way measure accuracy, statistically, is to ask, "Do the numbers correlate to the wet chem?"

For ESC the r squared value is 0.93 (with 0 being no correlation and 1 being perfect correlation). The standard error is plus or minus 0.95.

This means that an actual ESC of 6.0 can be come out on the NIR testing as 5.05 or as 6.95 for the majority of the samples.

Some people think that's close enough. Hay testing is not a perfect science. One side of the field may test differently than the other side of the field. Or the part that was started being mowed first thing in the morning may be lower than that mowed later in the morning.

Paul reported that 70% of the tests that they do are done be NIR. He attributes that high number to the following: 1. The tests are reasonably accurate. 2. The turn-around time is fast. 3. The price is more cost effective for the client.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., donna <donnajbrowne@...>

I'm not one of the gurus, but I thought I'd chime in on something I
just discovered about different results. First, it looks like the
difference between 604 and 603 is the addition of lignin, ash, fat,
cobalt, sulfur and chloride. Others will have to comment on most of

What I found out about ash and fat is Equi-analytical uses these along
with crude protein (CP), Acid Detergent Fiber (ADF), and Neutral
Detergent Fiber (NDF) to help determine the DE (Digestible Energy).
When fat and ash are not analyzed (as is the case for 603), average
values for a particular feed type are substituted into the equation.

What happened to me is I used the Fast Track to get a quick answer for
sugar and starch because the hay grower didn't want to hold the hay
too long. They reported my hay's DE as .85 using average values of
ash and fat for Bermuda. When I had a more complete analysis done
(601 Equi-Tech), the actual ash and fat values were used and changed
the DE to .78 for my hay. And I also had the 603 done for my last
batch of hay which I'm still feeding, but don't know the real value of
DE, so I don't know if I'm feeding the correct amount.

DE is used to determine how much you need to feed to meet their daily
MCal requirements. When I compared the amount of hay I had to feed
using .85 and then .78 for DE, it shortened my hay supply by three
weeks because I had to feed them more to get their MCals right.

I imagine it would also have some affect on the mineral amounts when
balancing as well. I would love to know what the balancing gurus have
to say about how important accurate DE is to the whole mineral
balancing stuff.


In the above post, Donna indicated that she was short on her hay by 3 weeks due to the error in digestible energy. That's significant if you have to buy 3 extra weeks of hay due to a testing inaccuracy.

What I've found is that all sorts of people can tell you things in life, but it doesn't mean that it's accurate. My vet told me that my horse's insulin level was "normal", when in fact she's insulin resistant. My trimmer said that there was no hope for Dazzle after she rotated and penetrated, but she's still here today.

I've found that nobody cares for my Princess Dazzle like I do. I'm willing to ask the extra questions to help her. To them, she's just another horse. To me, she's the princess of my heart.

I'll ask the extra questions and go the extra mile for my little girl. That's why I'm here.

Joan and Dazzle
Anaheim, CA 2006

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Fantov/Rooklidge" <crni@...> wrote:

I also called the lab and got the same answer. The lab should know. I don't
understand why this group doubts the lab. They run the tests and see the
results. It is a huge price difference.

Diana, Nor Cal

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