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Chia and carb metabolism

Mara
 

Hi all,

I am assisting someone to develop a healthy diet for their IR horse (not a memeber). She was told before to give her horse chia seeds to help with carb metabolism. She did not provide a source for that claim. I have researched chia on this list and HK list. I just want to make sure I address the question properly. I have blanced the hay, and suggested for her barn situation she contact HorseTech to blend her minerals into a 2oz/day flax base. She then brought up the carb metab and asked if she could give both. From what I have read chia and flax offer about the same, with flax offering slightly higher Omega-3's.

So, where am I on this carb metab?

I found this site, MAYBE this was the source of information she had:
http://equinechia.com/insulin-resistance

In short, I pulled this paragraph:
"Chia is a very low NSC (non-structural carbohydrate). Chia forms a mucilaginous gel in the digestive tract and creates a physical barrier between carbohydrates and the digestive enzymes that break them down, thus slowing the conversion of carbohydrates into sugar. The slower metabolism results in a more even blood-sugar level, a huge advantage for Insulin-Resistant horses."

I am trying to wrap my head around that. A bunch of nonsense?? But, if that were to be true, then flax would operate the same way?

I suppose if she wants to stick with the chia she can, but it being more expensive, and yet another thing to add to the feed bucket, it seems less efficient.

Mara
NJ
2010


Re: Adequan and the IR horse

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Robin Lake" <lake22802@...> wrote:

No laminitic episodes in this guy but is now back in shoes due to flat soles/tenderness when ridden.

I agree with Nanc that you have to highly suspicious of subclinical laminitis in this scenario, i.e. sinking.

One approach would be to try the Adequan to see if that obviously improves things. Another would be to ask your vet to block the front feet to see if that obviously changes how the horse moves.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: From whence did the 10% originate?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Just to add one more factor here.

Ethanol extraction of simple sugars (ESC) is more efficient than water extraction. It may be (not confirmed by any enzyme studies) that the small difference between WSC and ESC in most North American hays (i.e. 2%) disappears with the more efficient extraction.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: From whence did the 10% originate?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., canequin@... wrote:

How did we decide, back when we were using the old NSC, that 10% or less
was possibly safe for our IR horses?
Was there a study that confirmed that?
It was determined by feedback from members. I also have private communication from a prominent researcher that they could not get control of their test horses unless NSC was under 10%.

There have been no formal studies in IR horses on hays of differing NSC/ESC+starch (good thing we're not waiting, huh?). The closest thing is a study using normal and EPSM horses that documented hays of different simple carb contents do indeed influence insulin responses:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=hay%20insulin%20valberg

Why, now that we're using ESC + starch, have we not adjusted that figure
downwards,
Because the experience of members has been that 10% works and there is no need to adjust it downwards.

There will always be hypersensitive individuals. Even with the earlier WSC + starch we had a few horses that needed soaked hay. However, for the majority the ESC + starch of 10% works.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: IR test

 

Hi Ruth,

If I convert to mmol/L by multiplying by 0.0555, & round, I get 59 * 0.0555 = 3.27 mmol/L which is just under the low normal for the range given by U of Guelp of 3.56mmol/L - 8.34mmol/L. It would be interesting to know what his Insulin was at the time, but based on this reading, his glucose certainly isn't elevated.

George & Wind
Mica Bay, ON
EC2010


Re: Prascend

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "millionairess1989" <millionairess1989@...> wrote:

I just learned that Boehringer-Ingleheim will offer Prascend in the US from a FDA approved pharmacy.
Do you have any more details, press release, etc.?

Pharmacies are regulated by the states so there is no such thing as an FDA approved pharmacy.

FDA may have given them permission to market it for equine use, or BI may have applied for a new animal drug application to get FDA approval.

If they have FDA approval as a new animal drug, it will be illegal to compound pergolide from bulk drug. They would have to compound from Prascend, which would make it more expensive than the Prascend itself. However, there have been some court decisions upholding animal compounding from bulk drugs so the issue may eventually make it to the courts.

If they only have approval to sell without actual FDA approval of the drug, similar to the current situation with compounded drugs being allowed, they will not have any more legal status and you should still be able to choose compounded.

No official statements from BI or FDA so that's all I can say for now. Elanco also had pergolide under study for equine PPID use at three US universities but no official word on that yet either.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Paddy's blood results & vet's opinion...

 

Hi Robyn

I presume you had Paddy's blood tested at Cambridge - The Hormone Lab?

I have queried their ACTH normal range before. According to their website they use RIA (radioimmunoassay), as do most labs testing equine ACTH. I don't remember seeing any/many (?) labs with a normal range in excess of 47 pg/ml - Liphook's range for Aug-Oct. And nearly all the labs I've seen used for ACTH testing have a normal range of around <35 pg/mg - other than those that now adjust for the seasonal rise.

See p27-28 of their lab manual for ACTH & insulin testing:
http://thehormonelab.com/core/..uploads/csls/Lab-Service-Information-Manual-March-2011.pdf
"However very high levels (>300pg/mL) are still highly suggestive of ECS and a normal level in the autumn (<100 pg/mL) is more likely to be truly negative."

Is it possible for normal ranges to differ this much??

If not, then yes without a doubt Paddy's ACTH is far too high, and I would increase his pergolide - you don't even know how high his ACTH actually is, it could be far higher than 600 pg/ml. Andy Durham said in his Aug Prascend webinar that horses need different doses of pergolide and he has horses on anything from 1-2 mg/day to 8 mg/day. The correct dose is the dose that controls the clinical symptoms and the ACTH.

For this reason I always recommend that people in the UK ask to have their blood tested at Liphook - not only are Liphook doing a lot of research into endocrine testing, but their results are in line with most of the other good labs recommended by this group.

I would also say that his insulin is above normal - I believe it has been mentioned on here that some labs in the USA have results approx. 2 x higher than Cornell, so perhaps this is similar with Cambridge. But nonetheless you are looking for an insulin result <20 uIU/ml according to most vets, and ideally <10 uIU/ml. And his glucose is right at the top of the normal range given, and over 100 mg/dl.

Cortisol isn't considered diagnostic of PPID by most vets.

I'd be grateful if someone with more knowledge than me could comment on the ACTH normal range mentioned above - I'm currently researching this but it's taking a while. If no one has an answer, I'll contact the lab next week and see what I can find out.

Andrea
UK/France Jan 2010
www.thelaminitissite.org

ACTH *>600 pg/mL (no actual figure as above lab's range - lab's normal range is <100, and >300 considered very high)

Cortisol 105 nmol/L (normal 25-155)

Insulin 54 uIU/mL (normal 8.9-65)

Glucose 5.8 mmol/L (normal 3.4-5.9)


WAS: Adequan and the IR horse NOW: Subclinical laminitis

Nancy C
 

Hi Robin

Members here have experienced that arthritis is often diagnosed incorrectly in many cases. The foot symptoms you describe are often due to subclinical laminitis. Would recommend a close review of DDT+E for your guy just to be sure.

Here are a couple of posts
Subclinical laminitis


<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/140935>
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/140932>
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/144246>

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

ECIRHorse.com - your reference source
for Insulin Resistance and Cushing's Disease
NOLaminitis.org - see you at the next ECIR Group No Laminitis! Conference


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Robin Lake" <lake22802@...> No laminitic episodes in this guy but is now back in shoes due to flat soles/tenderness when ridden.


Re: Paddy's blood results & vet's opinion...

Lorna <briars@...>
 


Am I right to be concerned about those results or am I over reacting and should be more patient?!
Hi Robyn,

You are SO RIGHT to be concerned about those numbers!
Good for you!

No way would I wait another 4 weeks and rely on clinical signs ,if it were me.But you know that already,or you wouldn't have asked.

He's already showing you that a little pergolide can make his feet feel a little better.So let's go big or go home.Let's get those feet *comfortable*.

Would our new data base numbers help your vet understand how much pergolide can be needed ?

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/database?method=reportRows&tbl=11

Good luck!


Lorna in Eastern Ontario
2002
EC Moderator
http://www.ecirhorse.com
http://www.nolaminitis.org/first-annual-no-laminitis-conference


Prascend

millionairess1989
 

I just learned that Boehringer-Ingleheim will offer Prascend in the US from a FDA approved pharmacy. How will this affect getting Pergolide from compounding pharmacies?

Jennifer & Mill in TN
Jan 2011
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/ECHistory3/files/Millionairess


Paddy's blood results & vet's opinion...

bigears298
 

Got the results 2 days ago, vet finally rang this morning.

Have updated case history but here they are:

***These bloods were taken after 3 weeks on pergolide - no prior bloods to compare to for various reasons, see case history for info pls***

ACTH *>600 pg/mL (no actual figure as above lab's range - lab's normal range is <100, and >300 considered very high)

Cortisol 105 nmol/L (normal 25-155)

Insulin 54 uIU/mL (normal 8.9-65)

Glucose 5.8 mmol/L (normal 3.4-5.9)

which by my calculations puts his G:I at 1.93 and RISQI at 0.14 and means severe IR.

Vet however is happy that cortisol, insulin and glucose are all in normal range and says though he's put other horses on metformin alongside the pergolide Paddy doesn't need it. Not interested in G:I ratio. He's (and I quote) "not a big believer in doubling the dose of pergolide" at which point I asked whether we should increase to 1.5mg but he wants to continue at 1mg for a further 4 weeks and then reassess physical symptoms.

We went straight in at 1mg and though Paddy picked up fairly quickly we have been struggling with appetite for the last couple weeks but I have changed his chaff to something even lower sugar/starch (moved from 6% combined to one which is 3% combined) but with different flavour and he loves it and is now licking bowl clean again. Was struggling to get APF into him but is taking it now and is much improved generally. No change to any fat pads, still footy over stones but nowhere near as footsore as he was prior to starting pergolide. Coat seems to have improved a bit, better condition.

I'm concerned at his G:I ratio and that PPID is not under control at all despite 1mg pergolide and feel we should be increasing it not watching him for another 4 weeks.... I also have very little faith in current vet due to events in the past with my other horses, if I was to ask for 2nd opinion from other vets at the practice it wouldn't be the first time I'd done so.

Am I right to be concerned about those results or am I over reacting and should be more patient?!

Thanks in advance,

Robyn and Paddy
Sept 2011, UK

Case History:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Robyn%20-%20UK/
Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/823009075/pic/list


Re: From whence did the 10% originate?

Nancy C
 

Hi Beth

Good questions.....

Hoping Dr K, Joan, Kathleen Lars or other will will chime in if my memory is faulty.

As I recall when joining and the members here were honestly the only ones blazing this trail, there was first talk about NFC, then NSC at 13 percent or less. When too many horses came up laminitic that figure was reduced to 10 percent, still using NSC.

When the labs switched to reporting to ESC & Starch, 10 percent was thought to be okay after much discussion and dissection of changes in lab test protocol.

So, The 10% was maintained when moving from NSC to ESC&Starch and accounting from differences in testing protocols. It was confirmed by the members here. Having a brain cramp at the moment and honestly don't remember if there was a subsequent study, but the members here provide huge amounts of back up to 10 percent or less.

Not adjusting recommendations downwards - ie below 10 percent - allowed for horses that are super sensitive.

Here are a couple of messages that may help or may confuse.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/119267
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/94378
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/90818

The good news is it's all in the archives. The bad news is it's all in the archives. A good winter project to dig out the details.

Just my opnion but I think fewer people have to soak because of a better understanding of what components of the plant cause the glycemic spike, better growing and cutting techinques, but also because of weather. In my area at least, the hays were coming in at higher NSC/NFC back in 2003. The hay was being cut mid-late afternoon with maximum seed head. We had a drought concern, little fertilizer, as well as well as other factors.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

ECIRHorse.com - your reference source
for Insulin Resistance and Cushing's Disease
NOLaminitis.org - see you in August at
the first ECIR Group No Laminitis! Conference

--- In EquineCushings@..., canequin@... wrote:


How did we decide, back when we were using the old NSC, that 10% or less
was possibly safe for our IR horses?
Was there a study that confirmed that?


Re: feeding minerals/ was Delayed pergolide veil - REPOST AND PANICKING!!

Nancy C
 


Today while at the barn at feeding time I added some water to his feed and mixed it. Zar licked the bucket clean. Maybe he leaves the powder because, well, it's powder.
Hi Nancy

This is a very, very common problem for folks who are having trouble eating the minerals. It's why soaked BP works so well but with cubes and such, all it takes is some water and a stir. I use three cups of water for about 1.5 pounds of ODTB cubes.

The caps will stick to the food better too.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

ECIRHorse.com - your reference source
for Insulin Resistance and Cushing's Disease
NOLaminitis.org - see you at
the next ECIR Group No Laminitis! Conference


Re: Adequan and the IR horse

Robin Lake <lake22802@...>
 

Thanks! Sounds like Adequan itself is doable but no generics..... No laminitic episodes in this guy but is now back in shoes due to flat soles/tenderness when ridden.

Robin Lake
Harrisonburg, VA
2010


Re: Anyone heard of live yoghurt as a remedy for Cushings?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Jill,

My first question would be who/what was the source of this information?
Depending on the answer I'll want to know more,or not.

I would want to know how many horses this had been used on,their breeds and their ages.Time of year would be good to know.
Also what were the lab numbers before the horses were put on yoghurt,and after the trial was over would be other questions?

Have you had time to explore on PubMed,or Google , by any chance?
I haven't.

But my gut feeling is that if yoghurt controlled Cushing's there would be a run on it,and I'd want to buy some stock in the companies who make it.

That sounds flippant in print,but it wasn't meant that way.

Lorna in Eastern Ontario
2002
EC Moderator
http://www.ecirhorse.com
http://www.nolaminitis.org/first-annual-no-laminitis-conference


Anyone heard of live yoghurt as a remedy for Cushings?

Jill Allsopp
 

I heard a mention the other day that in Africa they succesfully treat Cushingoid horses with live yoghurt - fed at a rate of a couple of tablespoonfuls a day. Anyone know any more about it?
Jill
Shropshire UK
Member since 2008


Re: Adequan and the IR horse

Valeree Smith
 

I have been using Adequan on a PPID/IR/DSLD horse for a long time.

My vet likes to refer to it as the 'glue' that helps hold older horses together. Not the best recommendation, I'll admit, but he has had much success with it.

It does help my guy where Legend did nothing. However, after refreshing my memory with the archived messages listed, I may ask him for the non-generic brand (although it is about twice the price of the generic version.) (We had an odd rise in insulin in our last blood work, but I really can't point a finger at the Adequan for that - he's been on it for a very long time.)

That said, I've noticed nothing out of the ordinary with regards to Adequan and IR.

Valeree
ECHK Support Team
SoCal
09/03




















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: feeding minerals/ was Delayed pergolide veil - REPOST AND PANICKING!!

tolzarg
 

The fact that his feed starts out as pellets and ends up as powder at the bottom of his bucket leads me to think that he's eating around what he doesn't like
Nancy,do you moisten the pellets at all? That might help,if you don't now.
Lorna,

Today while at the barn at feeding time I added some water to his feed and mixed it. Zar licked the bucket clean. Maybe he leaves the powder because, well, it's powder.

So one more thought....have you tried top dressing the supplements instead of mixing them in? That would be on top of moistened whatever-your-base-is?
The BO puts the feed in smaller buckets, then dumps those into their feed buckets, so anything top-dressed ends up at the bottom of their bucket. It is shaken a bit to knock it down. Putting it in the small bucket first probably wouldn't work because these aren't cleaned regularly (I usually get disgusted and do them myself) and their not assigned to any particular horse. The powder would kinda stick to whatever else is lining the bucket.

I may mention adding some water to his feed, though I don't know if she'll take the time to do it. After telling me he doesn't eat the capsules whole, I found one mixed in leftover powder---why add it that way??! I bought a forbidden treat, Uncle Jimmy's Squeezy Buns, which are very soft and tasty and easy to hide a pill inside. So far, so good. A few seconds of extra work is like asking for the moon.

Nancy and Zar
NW NJ, June 2011


Re: Pergolide, another question

Missy Libby
 

Thanks, Jaini. My thoughts exactly. Think I may have made some headway
with my vet on the value of caps.
Missy, Buddy, Angel Abby in Maine
Nov 2008

-----Original Message-----
From: EquineCushings@...
[mailto:EquineCushings@...] On Behalf Of merlin5clougher
Hmmm.... doesn't make sense to me to freeze dry pergolide in any
carrier, because pergolide is degraded by freezing.


Re: Essence - Update

Missy Libby
 

Dear Sarah, I am so sorry to hear this. I send you huge hugs from Maine.
I know that my dearest Abby, Samantha, Tilly, and so many others will
welcome Essence, and await our reunion with our wonderful equines in
time. I can barely say Abby's name without crying. The pain is deep but
it will get better, with the wonderful memories you have. Much love.
Missy, Buddy, Angel Abby in Maine
Nov 2008

-----Original Message-----
From: EquineCushings@...
[mailto:EquineCushings@...] On Behalf Of slafortune36


I just wanted to let you all know that I had to let Essence go today.

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