Date   

Re: Newbie here...new some info

Mandy Woods
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lori" <calypsofarm@...>
To: <EquineCushings@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 5:59 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Newbie here...new some info


I have a 21 year old TB mare, former upper level eventer. Now retired. Her symptoms are: drinking 3 buckets of water at night (and it has been in the 40's and 50's at night here in Central Fla), and consuming alot while out in the field during the day; off her grain (eats her hay, which is alfalfa/orchard mix); normally wears a sheet at 59 degrees, in a heavy sheet in low 50's, then into blanket in the 40s, however, due to excessive sweating (especially belly and elbows), have had to alter what she wears and at what temps. Even in the 40's with a heavy sheet on, she was sweating; grew back her winter coat that was clipped last month; random swellings off and on of joints, mainly ankle area, that is not stocking up as they stay swollen for days.
UA was done this week and showed RBC's and WBC's and calcium carbonate. Blood was drawn today.
Did not use my usual vet, he sent another one who is very well respected. I have not used her before. She stated that you cannot get an accurate cushings test in the fall, that the season alters the readings, so she would't do one until spring. My friend, who has a sister that is a vet, and did a paper on cushings 5 years ago, says she has never heard this. Is this vet nuts? Or is this true?
Pending the blood results show nothing (UTI, kidneys, etc), should I just go ahead treat her as if she has Cushings?
What about her diet? Her grain is Seminole Wellness Senior.
Thanks for any help!
Lori
calypsofarm@...
www.calypsofarmeventers.blogspot.com



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Re: Newbie here...new some info

Mandy Woods
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lori" <calypsofarm@...>
To: <EquineCushings@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 5:59 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Newbie here...new some info


I have a 21 year old TB mare, former upper level eventer. Now retired. Her symptoms are: drinking 3 buckets of water at night (and it has been in the 40's and 50's at night here in Central Fla), and consuming alot while out in the field during the day; off her grain (eats her hay, which is alfalfa/orchard mix); normally wears a sheet at 59 degrees, in a heavy sheet in low 50's, then into blanket in the 40s, however, due to excessive sweating (especially belly and elbows), have had to alter what she wears and at what temps. Even in the 40's with a heavy sheet on, she was sweating; grew back her winter coat that was clipped last month; random swellings off and on of joints, mainly ankle area, that is not stocking up as they stay swollen for days.
UA was done this week and showed RBC's and WBC's and calcium carbonate. Blood was drawn today.
Did not use my usual vet, he sent another one who is very well respected. I have not used her before. She stated that you cannot get an accurate cushings test in the fall, that the season alters the readings, so she would't do one until spring. My friend, who has a sister that is a vet, and did a paper on cushings 5 years ago, says she has never heard this. Is this vet nuts? Or is this true?
Pending the blood results show nothing (UTI, kidneys, etc), should I just go ahead treat her as if she has Cushings?
What about her diet? Her grain is Seminole Wellness Senior.
Thanks for any help!
Lori
calypsofarm@...
www.calypsofarmeventers.blogspot.com



------------------------------------

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Nil worm count again

equestherapy
 

Hi All,
Has been a while since getting on :) Hope you and your four leggeds are all doing well.
I just wanted to re fresh a post I made some time ago re worming.
We are continuously getting a NIL worm count on our cushings gelding.
He is with 2 other horses who both get med to high worm counts.
We change wormers and pick up manure everyday.
Has anyone else found nil worm counts.
This gelding has had nil worm counts since being on pergolide...about the last 6 years. The other two do not have cushings but get worm burdens.
Picking up of the manure does not make a difference as the other two still get it. The other two do not have cushings.
The cushings gelding used to get worms in past worm counts prior to pergolide.
We do still worm him but more around bot season as these do not show up in worm counts.

Love to hear of your experiences

best wishes
Connie


Re: Help, climbing gluscose, high insulin

Judy Slayton <jslayton@...>
 

On Dec 3, 2011, at 1:39 PM, merlin5clougher wrote:
-

>>>What is the actual ESC+starch of your hay?
Thanks, timothy is esc 8.6 starch 1.3 orchard 6.7 starch 0.1


Diet maybe not tight enough. Any chance she is getting quite a few carrot pieces during training, or access to any weeds, or is there a lot of glucosamine or yucca in her smartpak joint supp? How about iron overload? How much iron is in the Grand Digest?
It may not be 100% tight. I will recheck her supps. Shes been on them a long time but maybe a problem now. I have wondered about the iron, our hay is high but below toxic levels.



Insulin and glucose can also be in>>> but the values are too high for that in my opinion.
Yes, I agree. I also tested my icelandic on Monday for control and a baseline for him and he is very normal so I believe my vet and the lab handled the samples properly.
Lyme disease? I don't know if you have it there, but it is worth thinking about.
We have no ticks where we live, should not be an issue. vet also said no.

Here's what I would do:
I will look at the supps again and try soaking her bags just for extra water and sugar reduction. She's not good with wet hay when it is cold out but worth a try. I think I will have the vet do the acth. to many wierd things are happening and we are not getting pointed in any other direction but ir/cushings.


Trim: If you could post pictures of her feet, that would be awesome.
Tried to upload some this am but it did not happen. Our internet is poor, it kept dropping the connection but I will keep trying. I am proud of her feet. The grooves from the 1/11 lamy flare up are gone and her hooves look as they have when I adopted her at age 2 yrs.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Judy-SoCal/

And if it were me, I would start her on pergolide, even before the blood results come back. Something is driving this insulin/glucose, and if it is Cushings, no amount of diet fiddling will bring it down enough. Start at .25 mg every 3 days, until you reach 1 mg; by then, you should have blood results. Adding APF from Auburn labs will help with any "pergolide veil" (loss of appetite, spaciness). Since she seems sensitive to drugs, the APF might be a good idea.
This is what I was wondering. I've thought about the APF or chasteberry before but did not pursue and I will discuss the pergolide trial with the vet.

If your vet digs in her heels and refuses to start pergolide without a dex suppression test (which you absolutely must not do - you are correct on that!), then you might have to find a new vet.
She is coming around thank goodness. She is the best one I have to work with. Vets are in short supply here.

Here's the link to your case history: I just copied and pasted it.
Ask any and all questions.
Jaini(BVSc)Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support
Thanks so much for all the advise. Appreciate it.
Judy/SoCal US


I have been trying to bring my vet on board and she now finally agrees with the IR diagnosis and may be starting to believe early cushings which is what I think. I am trying in between caring for Katie to send her info. She has not believed in diagnosing cushings without dex suppression which I refuse to do.

Please help, should we retest for cushings now even though Katie is in pain? Try a trial of perg? I posted her history in the ecir4 file but cannot figure out how to provide the link. Katie is eating tested low sugar orchard and Timothy with a 1/2 lb of alfalfa and TC lite to mix Supps in. She has eaten orchard hay for over 5 years. I live in the high desert, no pasture here!

Judy Slayton SoCal.


Re: Cushings horse EPM postive on blood test

Dawn Wagstaff
 

Kathy,
I do not have a horse diagnosed with EPM, however, I do have a friend with a Cushing/IR mare on pergolide, who was recently diagnosed with EPM and is undergoing a new drug protocol of Oroquin-10. She has been experiencing positive results with the drug. There is also a blood test protocol available now with different sensitivities being used instead of spinal taps to diagnose prior to administering oroquin.
The information for this protocol is at http://pathogenes.com/

Also, here is more reading than you might have wanted,http://pathogenes.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/WHAT_IS_EPM.144162502.pdf

The above is also from the pathogenes website.

Dawn Wagstaff
Angel Ellie
Saline, MI 2003

--- In EquineCushings@..., "godivakathy" <godivakathy@...> wrote:
Does anyone here have personal experience with or know of any sources where I can learn more about what to do or what I should know about when your Cushings horse tests positive for EPM on a blood test?


Newbie here...new some info

Lori <calypsofarm@...>
 

I have a 21 year old TB mare, former upper level eventer. Now retired. Her symptoms are: drinking 3 buckets of water at night (and it has been in the 40's and 50's at night here in Central Fla), and consuming alot while out in the field during the day; off her grain (eats her hay, which is alfalfa/orchard mix); normally wears a sheet at 59 degrees, in a heavy sheet in low 50's, then into blanket in the 40s, however, due to excessive sweating (especially belly and elbows), have had to alter what she wears and at what temps. Even in the 40's with a heavy sheet on, she was sweating; grew back her winter coat that was clipped last month; random swellings off and on of joints, mainly ankle area, that is not stocking up as they stay swollen for days.
UA was done this week and showed RBC's and WBC's and calcium carbonate. Blood was drawn today.
Did not use my usual vet, he sent another one who is very well respected. I have not used her before. She stated that you cannot get an accurate cushings test in the fall, that the season alters the readings, so she would't do one until spring. My friend, who has a sister that is a vet, and did a paper on cushings 5 years ago, says she has never heard this. Is this vet nuts? Or is this true?
Pending the blood results show nothing (UTI, kidneys, etc), should I just go ahead treat her as if she has Cushings?
What about her diet? Her grain is Seminole Wellness Senior.
Thanks for any help!
Lori
calypsofarm@...
www.calypsofarmeventers.blogspot.com


Re: muscle wasting

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

My question is, does that go for horses who are IR, or Cushings? Or both?
And WHY? what is the problem with oil?
Hi Valerie -

Here are two previous posts that address fat in the diet, and fat as related to IR/PPID type horses.

Hope these help explain some of the issues. Short and sweet - fat worsens or induces IR.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/106608>

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/120961>

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


muscle wasting

vwp06
 

I posted a couple of weeks ago about my 26 yr old Morgan (IR and
Cushings) and his muscle wasting. I talked to my vet and he wants me to
add oil. My daughter, who is also an equine vet, wants me to use
EquiJewel, a pelleted product that has a lot of oil in it. I have been
reading the files and archives about this and it seems contraindicated
for him.

My question is, does that go for horses who are IR, or Cushings? Or both?
And WHY? what is the problem with oil?

Thank you,
Valerie Pedersen
Jazzman 2001
Columbia, CT
____________________________________________________________
60-Year-Old Mom Looks 27
Mom Reveals Free Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4edaa4222cd9a954eem03vuc


Re: You need to stop the pain cycle - Can you talk me off the cliff

Nancy C
 

Just a last comment from experience. Even 100 feet long run could be too long.

When my guy was rehabbing he was kept in an area of about 40x40 until we knew he was stabilized. It needs to be an area larger than a stall but small enough that they can't get up a head of any steam.

Make sure you check the AAKG guidelines. First doc in this folder.

<http://tinyurl.com/yge6g9z>

So glad he's feeling better. Relief is a very good thing for the human!

Nancy C in NH
February 2003


Re: Cannot get horse to eat supplements

Nancy C
 

Yes, I'm sure he's not happy about the taste. I've found that they learn we're trying to jump through hoops for them. It can become them training us.

So, limited alternatives. Did you try adding extra beet pulp or flax?

The Big Box stores usually have dried peppermint but it sounds like you looked.

Try this for the sample flavor packets

<http://www.witcheyladypotions.com/index_files/Page721.htm>

Here's another herbal source but they won't have the sample packets

<http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/>


You probably can't get Triple Crown feeds in your area. Is there another low ESC&Starch feed? Making a slurry of a small amount of that has also worked after I've convinced them that what ever I'm using is a special treat. About a cup of the feed and add warm water to make like a gravy.



Nancy C in NH
February 2003

--- In EquineCushings@..., "gypsy1_ca" <jo.king@...> wrote:
I was interested in ordering the 10 pack of flavour samples that was mentioned in the article but can't seem to find where to order them.


Re: Help, climbing gluscose, high insulin

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Judy -

Welcome to the list! I am tres sorry you have to be here, but I am glad you have found us. Since you have been reading list stuff for a couple of months, you have a head start.

First of all: breathe. It is horrible when our horses are in pain. Sounds like you have indeed been doing everything you thought was right, then got thrown a curve ball.

What is the actual ESC+starch of your hay?

This creep in insulin/glucose from spring to mid-summer to now can be caused by a number of things:

Diet maybe not tight enough. Any chance she is getting quite a few carrot pieces during training, or access to any weeds, or is there a lot of glucosamine or yucca in her smartpak joint supp? How about iron overload? How much iron is in the Grand Digest?

To me, the most recent events do suggest Cushings: the scratches, the surge in insulin and glucose, and now the laminitis. Many horses will be normal ACTH in summer, then show an inappropriately large seasonal rise in ACTH (closet Cushings?)

Insulin and glucose can also be increased from a high sugar/starch diet (but she doesn't get any food like that); or from pain and distress/stress - but the values are too high for that in my opinion.

Lyme disease? I don't know if you have it there, but it is worth thinking about.

Here's what I would do:

Diagnosis: Get a Lyme titre, and pull blood for ACTH at the same time. Even though she is in pain, it apparently doesn't have an enormous effect on the ACTH, so it would be worth getting that info.

Diet: Just for now: cut out the Grand Digest, and even the SmartPak joint supp (unless there are no ingredients in it that might be problematic -could you post the ingredients?). Increase the vitamin E to 2,000 IU, in soy-based capsules. Add 5 grams of magnesium, in the form of magnesium carbonate (17 grams) or magnesium oxide (9 grams). Add 2-4 ounces of ground flax, or 1 ounce of flaxseed oil. 1-2 tablespoons salt. And, I hate to say it, but for now at least: soak the hay. Rats!

Trim: If you could post pictures of her feet, that would be awesome. Here's a link to taking hoof photos:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Judy-SoCal/

And if it were me, I would start her on pergolide, even before the blood results come back. Something is driving this insulin/glucose, and if it is Cushings, no amount of diet fiddling will bring it down enough. Start at .25 mg every 3 days, until you reach 1 mg; by then, you should have blood results. Adding APF from Auburn labs will help with any "pergolide veil" (loss of appetite, spaciness). Since she seems sensitive to drugs, the APF might be a good idea.

If your vet digs in her heels and refuses to start pergolide without a dex suppression test (which you absolutely must not do - you are correct on that!), then you might have to find a new vet.

Here's the link to your case history: I just copied and pasted it.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Judy-SoCal/

Ask any and all questions.

Jaini(BVSc)Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support


I have been trying to bring my vet on board and she now finally agrees with the IR diagnosis and may be starting to believe early cushings which is what I think. I am trying in between caring for Katie to send her info. She has not believed in diagnosing cushings without dex suppression which I refuse to do.

Please help, should we retest for cushings now even though Katie is in pain? Try a trial of perg? I posted her history in the ecir4 file but cannot figure out how to provide the link. Katie is eating tested low sugar orchard and Timothy with a 1/2 lb of alfalfa and TC lite to mix Supps in. She has eaten orchard hay for over 5 years. I live in the high desert, no pasture here!

Judy Slayton SoCal.


Re: Can you talk me off the cliff - I'm quickly losing ground?

barefooted4
 

Thanks for the links Linda! I'll certainly look into all these. I've been putting his flared shipping boots on the fronts only. I've got 2 pairs - one pair is quilted and the other is fleece-lined.

Kristie & Sashi
OH 2004

I have these for Pap and my arthritic old mare.

http://www.whinnywarmers.com/index.html

These are an option as well:

<http://www.adamshorsesupply.com/browse.cfm/cashel-boomer-bandages/4,1913.html>

As are those outdated knee high tube socks!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: You need to stop the pain cycle -Banamine

barefooted4
 

No problem! I've given him a 1000# dose every other day and he's had a total of 4 doses with his last being yesterday morning. It's been well over 24 hours and his improvement from even this morning w/no banamine is nothing short of amazing. I'm guessing at least the 2mg is kicking in strong but I may still play with that dosage up to 2.5 and see where to go from there. I'm for whatever dose it takes.

Thanks so much,
Kristie & Sashi
OH 2004

--- In EquineCushings@..., "cathyjomitchell" <haywire@...> wrote:

Sorry. Didn't realize he was already on Banamine and running laps. Darn horses.

The group is giving you some good suggestions. It's not a fast process, but it does get better, and these folks know their stuff.

Just keep tweaking until you find what works for him.

Cathy and Natalie
2009


Re: Cushings horse EPM postive on blood test

Saucier Kathy
 

Kathy,
We went through the EPM ordeal just a year ago. I did not have him tested though. Had heard it is very expensive and can't tell if they have EPM or just exposed to it as many horses are exposed to it. I don't know for sure on those ideas if they are factual. But my vet recommended trying the Marquis. If in two weeks we saw an improvement in the symptoms we were seeing, then we would continue. And they reevaluated at the end of each month whether to continue the expensive drug for another month or not. We ended up seeing great improvement at 2 weeks so continued with the Marquis. Each month we still wanted to see more improvement and ended up continuing the Marquis for 3 months. We have a little muscle atrophy in the right hind and some weakness there too that seems permanent. But a year later he seems to still be doing well. There are a bunch of products out there with claims to treat or prevent. No proof if they work. I am giving him Vit E & folic acid supplements for the immune system.

If you have tangible symptoms that you can monitor, I would suggest giving the Marquis a month trial and see. I totally get though that it is very expensive. But with the C's horse you already have to deal with muscle wasting and if the EPM is contributing more, you have your hands full.
Kathy Saucier
TX
2005 (although I do not currently have an IR or PPID horse, I stay in touch and continue to learn from this wonderful group)


Re: You need to stop the pain cycle - Can you talk me off the cliff

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Cathy/Natalie and Laura/Chappie:

Nope, no blasting here! Pain meds can be lifesavers, in the right situations. The list recommends not being on NSAIDs for two reasons: 1) potential ulcers 2) retards healing

Having said that, if the NSAIDs are needed to get a horse over a crisis, then by all means use them, but for as short a time as possible. There is a knee-jerk reaction to put horses on the NSAIDs, often for prolonged periods, when it is totally unnecessary, and even counter-productive. If you can avoid them, you should. If a horse has been on NSAIDs for a longish period of time (more than a week), then be sure to wean the horse off by increasing the length of time between doses. Sudden cessation of NSAIDs can cause a NSAID rebound, and make them more sore than they were originally. (same with people)

Regarding the acepromazine, it will indeed aid in circulation, but for such a very short period of time (couple hours, max) that it really isn't much use for that. So in Chappie's case, it didn't hurt, and may have eased his anxiety somewhat to boot, but any benefit to the feet would be pretty short-lived. An important consideration for Cushings horses is that Ace can interfere with the action of the pergolide. One low dose is nothng to signify, but long term use in Cushings horses is a definited no-no.


Laura, once the acute laminitic phase is over, try Jiaogulan for improved circulation. Works well, and cheap like borscht. Info here, in the J-herb and supps folder:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Jiaogulan%2C%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support%2C%20AAKG%20%26%20Supps/

Good source of high quality J-herb is:

www.mybesthorse.com



Jaini, Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support

--- In EquineCushings@..., mark knie <mknie@...> wrote:


When my lad 1st foundered, my vet had me do a couple of days Banamine for pain and had me do a little Ace to aid in circulation. Would that help or was that not great advice? (I'd never had a foundered horse before)

Laura K. & ChappieIl. 2011




























Ok I am going to chime in here and I'm sure I will get blasted. Sometimes you have to use pain meds for a few days. I think being in pain causes stress, excaerbates the pain, and starts a vicious cycle that you need to stop! I can't pinpoint why, but my mare went through a "rough patch" several weeks ago.She was ouchy and heading quickly in a bad direction. I prefer Banamine when necessary, so I did 4 or 5 days of Banamine, headed off the crash, and we are back doing well (knock on wood)



If you improve the pain situation, she will lie down.



Cathy Mitchell and Natalie (Morgan Mare)

since 2009


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: You need to stop the pain cycle -Banamine

cathyjomitchell
 

Sorry. Didn't realize he was already on Banamine and running laps. Darn horses.

The group is giving you some good suggestions. It's not a fast process, but it does get better, and these folks know their stuff.

Just keep tweaking until you find what works for him.

Cathy and Natalie
2009


Re: You need to stop the pain cycle - Can you talk me off the cliff

barefooted4
 

I do Nancy and as I just finished partially clipping him I took off his halter to wander around the barn and paddock. Sun is shining, he's feeling good and off he tried to go right after a roll but I stopped him. It's about a 40x100 mud lot after all our rain so he's on restriction. He won't be needing banamine today that's for sure. Tomorrow is calling for rain all day so that will help.

I'll have to go into the files to refresh my memory on length of time getting the banamine out of his system. I know it's counterproductive as far as the herb goes but didn't know it was counterproductive to the Mov-Ease.

I did forward his xrays to Linda. I've not used the AAKG before but will be more than anxious to order it but will need help with dosage!

Thanks so much. This horse and how he feels determines how my day is going to go and it's going great!

Kristie & Sashi
OH 2004

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

And that's why the group recommends not using pain relieves except during an acute phase along with keeping them in the stall or very small trn out while on the NSAIDs.

They also negate the jherb and I think the movease, but you probably know that.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003



--- In EquineCushings@..., "barefooted4" <kristiebrand@> wrote:
However, as soon as he feels even a bit better he wants to run.


Re: Cannot get horse to eat supplements

gypsy1_ca
 

Hi

I was actually at the bulk food store looking for flavourings yesterday but outside of the very basic foods and spices there was nothing there like that.

I was actually looking at the Koolaid and wondering the same thing:-) That I can get lots of!!

Joanne
NL, Canada
2003

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Chanda" <chandab@...> wrote:

What about Chia seed, more as a flavor enhancer rather than Omega 3 source? I think fenugreek is safe and many horses like the flavor (one of my horses, the only probiotic he'd eat was the one with fenugreek added). Instead of ordering bulk flavorings, why not try the flavorings in the spice aisle and find ones without sugar added (probably most as they are just flavoring); at least while you are finding a flavor he likes, you are only purchasing a small bottle.
I'm fairly new here, so have a question/suggestion in one: is unsweetened Kool-Aid an option (just the flavoring packets - lots of flavors and fairly cheap)?


Re: Cannot get horse to eat supplements

gypsy1_ca
 

Hi

Yes I had already seen that and have tried everything that I could. The problem is that I live in rural Newfoundland Canada and I don't have the access to things that you guys do. Anything out of the ordinary has to be ordered in. I cannot get the ODBC at all. I was interested in ordering the 10 pack of flavour samples that was mentioned in the article but can't seem to find where to order them. He is eating the magox, calcium carbonate, salt, flax, etc. He's been eating this for years. He started objecting when I tried to add the copper, zinc and CTB. I stopped trying to add the CTB a few days ago. Today I put the copper and zinc in some sugarfree applesauce and syringed it in. When I get the Monosodium Phosphate he will need 17.7g of it and I've already been warned that it tastes really bad. I don't believe that he is pulling one over on me because he lives to eat. He really doesn't like the taste:-/

Joanne
NL,Canada
2003


You may have found this already but there are a ton more suggestions in the Picky Eaters Checklist

Go to File Folder 8 Pulling it Together

<http://tinyurl.com/ya6sflv>


Re: You need to stop the pain cycle - Can you talk me off the cliff

cathyjomitchell
 

I think Joan already suggested to continue to up the pergolide. Don't be afraid of raising the pergolide dose. Bump it til it works. This time of year, my mare is on 8 mgs, but that's what she seems to need. We'll go down to about 1/2 that later.

I tried J-Herb, but My mare responded better to 8mgs APF and AAKG dosed 2x per day in the winter.

Move- Ease is slow acting, may take several days to see an effect.

I guess what I am saying is sometimes you have to keep plugging away until you find what works best for your horse. They all respond a bit differently.

It does get better.


Cathy Mitchell and Natalie (Morgan Mare)
since 2009

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