Date   

Re: Psyllium and IR and Questions IR Calculator and Conventional Ranges

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi,

I put psyllium and glucose into the rectangular Search Box on the Messages page,and came up with a number of messages.

This is from Joan,and should answer your question.I hope.


153553

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: Psyllium and IR and Questions IR Calculator and Conventional Ranges

Mandy Woods
 

Hey ~
Welcome to the list. Its good to see you've been cruising around the files!
There is pleanty to learn here. I"m not sheepish to say this group is light
years ahead of most vet schools so what you read here is new, cutting edge
and you may have some conviencing to do with your vet! Tell your vet about
www.ecirhorse.org


The list philosophy is DDT/E.

DIAGNOSIS is by bloodwork. To confirm PPID (Cushings) you would have your
vet pull blood for an eACTH test. This test requires special handling so
reviewing the Blood Testing file will help you. To confirm IR you'd have
your vet pull Insulin and Glucose from the same draw on a NON fasting
horse. I hope your horse was not given grain or worked before the test! We
often recommend a Thyroid panel for a base line. PPID is treated with
pergolide. IR is managed by DIET.

DIET is a low sugar/starch/fat diet. Testing your hay is the only way to
know what you are actually feeding. Balancing the minerals to your hay
analysis is your goal. There are few commercially made bagged feeds that
are safe enough for an IR horse. One is Ontario Dehy Balance Timothy and
this can be used as a complete feed. It was formulated by Dr. Kellon. We
do recommend soaking/draining your grass hay until you get the analysis
back. The Temporary Emergency Diet in the Start Here File is what your
horse should be put on until you get your hay balanced. The ER minerals can
be purchased at any drugstore or Walmart. Vitamin E in soy oil, loose
iodized table salt, magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed. NO
Pasture! NO grains and no treats like cookies, apples, carrots and no
supplements either. You want to 'wipe the slate clean' with this diet as to
remove as much sugar/fat possible so you can track everything you add back
in. It works.

Feed her soaked/drained hay as the major portion of her diet now until you
know the sugars/starch value. Many of us use soy hull pellets as a carrier
for the minerals. I use one cup of SHP twice a day. Another safe feed is
rinsed/soaked/rinsed plain shredded beet pulp. If you r/s/r it in hot
water you can lower the sugar that is left in it from the processing. Its
full of good fiber, warm water which is great in the winter and has a nearly
identical mineral base as OATS. Oats convert to 100% glucose when eaten!
Feed her atleast 4 small meals a day. Feed her 2% her body weight a day in
dry hay. I use haynets and fish scales. A muck tub works great for
soaking.

TRIM is a balanced foot with toes backed from the top and heels lowered.
EXERCISE only if the horse is able. Never force a laminitic horse to move.

You didnt mention if your horse is having foot issues, slow, stiff, back
sore or hock sore. Many times smoldering low grade laminitis is confused
for these. Can you feel digital pulses in her fetlocks? Can you see red
bruising in her feet? on the walls? These are subtle symptoms.

Please join the ECH5 group which is were we keep the medical files on the
horses. Answering the questionnaire paints a big picture for the gurus to
help zero in on tightning her diet or other issues. Keep reading the
files, ask questions as they pop up and we'll help. You may need to
start building a 'drylot' for her!

Psyllium is mainly used to remove sand from the cecum. It may help lower
insulin and glucose somewhat but I'm not aware of anyone doing followup
testing on it. It would be better to feed a low sugar/starch meal to avoid
an insulin spike! If you live in a sandbase area you'll feed psyllium one
week out of each month. Many of us get it at www.herbalcom.com for $5.65 a
pound.

So much to learn! It will overwhelm you in the beginning but you'll learn
quickly especially when you see your mare improve. Remove the sugar
quickly. Add new minerals slowly.

Please sign your posts and delete the post you're resonding to. (highlite
and delete) Tell us where you live (state) and of course sign the date you
joined (Jan 12?)

Welcome again and get ready for new year of equine management!
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Re: Psyllium and IR and Questions IR Calculator and Conventional Ranges

rainbowfarm140
 

The Sept 2011 Equus had a short article re: new research into the use of psyllium (from the husks of the seeds of the "Plantago ovata") a high fiber dietary additive used to help expel sand from a horses digestive system. The study indicated that horses, when tested after use, had lower blood glucose and insulin levels after meals. Any one have any experience w/this?

Re: the IR Calculator, we just joined this great group and we downloaded the IR Calculator and plugged our mare's numbers in. To our shock,her numbers for insulin (20.75 uIU/mL) and glucose (88 mg/dL), although they are both well within the "normal" range listed on the diagnostic report, put her G:I ratio at 4.4, her RISQI at 0.22 and her MIRG at 9.37. All adding up to a Severely IR mare. We suspected that she was IR but were reassured by the blood work and the seemingly safe ranges within which she fell. Then when we used the calculator, we were simply shocked. Have others had this experience and how did you adjust your horse's diet? We sent hay samples off and intend to balance nutrients when we get the report.


Re: question feeding this to princess.. help

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Sue,


I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but don't forget about things like total cleanliness of pail, consistency of mush.

I'm living with picky eaters,too.Drives me crazy.
Actually ,it's a short walk!



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: question feeding this to princess.. help

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

thanks linda,
I was using warm water... but last night I don't think I did, not sure? and she ate it all..  I'll try the cold water..
Thanks
sue & princess
oh 6/10

--- On Fri, 1/27/12, Linda <PapBallou@...> wrote:


Re: question feeding this to princess.. help

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hi  kathleen,
 I tried with out salt no luck. I'll stay away from the barley...  I'm going to try the banana flavoring next.
sue & princess
oh 6/10

--- On Thu, 1/26/12, KFG <katmando@...> wrote:


Re: question feeding this to princess.. help

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hello,
she does drive me nuts... last night she ate it all, and I did nothing different..  I did the top dressing and she took her nose and pushed it a side and ate around it.. she such a brat...  on the stevia, she hates it... what kind of banana flavoring do you use... that I didnt try..... I took all the salt out and no difference so I added the 1 1/2 tea she would eat back in... she hates the timothy cubes soaked.  this is what I did last night like so many nights before.. her beet pulp soaked in peppermint tea water, she loves. mixed with timothy pellets with her flax, vit b complex and bition, with vit e.... and 3 tablespoons of alfa pellets crushed....and she ate all of it last night... I've done it with the timothy cubes and she didnt eat it at all. maybe I'll get lucky and she'll be nice to me and want to make me happy and eat it all, yea I know I'm dreaming..I want to add the source in to her diet soon... but the banana sounds like something that
I can try.. let me know what you get , brand ect of banana stuff...
what I did if she didnt eat it all I would give her a little timothy or alfa pellets during the day and mix it with what she left over and some times she ate it all or most of the time only some..
thank for the ideas... it helps... I'll keep tiring..
sue & princess the brat
oh 6/10

--- On Fri, 1/27/12, merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...> wrote:

F
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: ACTH?

skyappy95
 

Can you tell me how to put that link into email...not sure what you mean or how todo that.
sky

--- In EquineCushings@..., "merlin5clougher" <janieclougher@...> wrote:

Hi, Sky -

Okay, excellent work on doing a case history.

Here is the link to it:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/CopperTop-%20Oregon/

Any time you post, could you please include that link? I have mine copied into my email, so I can copy and paste it into my posts when necessary.

Hmmm... now that I think of it, I have been very remiss about my own link!

Got my thinking cap on for Copper. I do think you need to test ACTH, insulin and glucose. Let us know if you need any help with blood handling info for your vet.

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "skyappy95" <skydove103@> wrote:

yes, there is a file history on her Coppertop

--- In EquineCushings@..., "merlin5clougher" <janieclougher@> wrote:

Hi, Sky -

Here is a link to a study from Liphook lab in the UK, comparing ACTH levels (which is one of the things to drive cortisol levels) in normal and PPID (Cushings) horses.

In normal horses, the ACTH starts to rise in late summer, early autumn, and is well on the downswing by the end of November.

In PPID horses, the lowest levels are April and May, but they start to rise again in June; highest levels September, October, November; starting to drop off in December.

BUT (and this is a big but) some PPID horses maintain those high levels even longer, so one cannot assume that ACTH will start dropping in December - testing is the only way to know for sure.

Do we have a case history for your mare? I can't remember. If not, then you can go to EC History 5:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/?yguid=494976346

You have to join, but that is quick. Download the case history template, fill it out on the computer, then upload it into your own folder in the files. The instructions are on the site also.

Good luck!

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support




Hi,
I'm wondering if my horse is showing signs of elevated cortisol or pre-Cushings. She has been having Laminitic Episodes this month. We have been having alot of frozen ground this year [unusual] but her diet is pretty tight so am looking for other possibities.

So, if it IS cortisol then at what time of year does it start to go
down again? & up again?
Thankyou!
sky
oregon 2009


Re: What to do for Laminitis?

skyappy95
 

Hi Lisa,
Thank you for the info.

What kind of muzzle do you recommend?

She is not on pasture but there is like stubble but she is standing around mostly now & I really don't see her even trying to eat it much & why would now make such a big difference? That's the part I don't understand. Everything has been the same for the last 2 years & no
problems then all of sudden there is.

I did cut out all treats & am stopping the Triple Crown 30 just in case that is it even tho' she is on her second bag of it but did not
have that last year.

I'm just at my wits end trying to figure out what is the trigger!
sky

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lonestarquarterh" <mostlyaggies@...> wrote:



--- In EquineCushings@..., "skyappy95" <skydove103@> wrote:


I've been posting about my horse having some Laminitic episodes. What can I do for that?

Sky,

I know the moderators will post with help for you and will ask you to update your history--or fill one out, if you haven't already--but in the meantime I just want to make sure your horse is not getting any grass.

My gelding continued to have flare ups as long as I let him eat grass, even when he was only getting a blade or two through a tiny hole in his grazing muzzle. Our grass was very stressed and I am sure was full of sugars and that is what kept setting off his episodes of pain.

I also wouldn't hesitate to go back to the emergency diet till you get everything sorted out.

My gelding still gets his hay soaked even though it tested very low in S&S. I find that he has no problems when his hay is soaked, but when I fail to soak, he will have frequent 'ouchy' days.

Good luck!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010


Re: What to do for Laminitis?

skyappy95
 

Hi Jaini,
Are you one of the Moderators?

You can call me sky, that is fine.

The vet, Dan Cochran does not come out to my area.
So, I called my regular vet who is on the cusp of retiring & I really
tho't he would not be open to all of this but he is willing & will
do the testing for me. I just have to send him all the info which I
printed out from the ecir site. So, that is in the works.

Why do you want pics of her hooves? They are in casts right now & Pete Ramey has been helping me along with someone he recommmended & also now Equicast is helping me. So we are really doing all we can
for her hooves to hold them together & get her as comfortable as
possible with a good breakover.

She has pathological feet from many years of wrong everything so it's only the last 2 yrs that I took over & started learning about this
& she was growing out new hoof capsules & then this Laminitis thing started happening which, thank goodness, has been mild. She is able to walk & no strange stances,but it is not doing her feet any good.

I was wondering about feeding before the testing. Does she need to have, like a full meal before the blood draw? & does the blood draw need to be during a certain time of day or anything? I know it should not be fasting. So, can I just feed her when I know the vet is coming?

Thank you,
sky

--- In EquineCushings@..., "merlin5clougher" <janieclougher@...> wrote:

Hi, Sky - or do you prefer to be called Catherine?

Here is what you must do next:

Continue feeding the diet she is currently on. The 8% ESC+starch grass hay should be fine without soaking. Cut out all treats of carrots and turnips and other treats.

Get a vet out to test ACTH, insulin and glucose. In message 162541, Susan posted about a vet near you:

******"I answered her privately but thought I would also email the list in case there is anyone else in this area that would like to know. I live near Gold Hill and use Dr. Dan Cochran. His number is 541-826-6752. My Arab gelding has mild cushings and Dr. Dan is so great with explaining things to me. Andy is 28 and I have had him since he was born.
Susan
Sam's Valley, OR
May 2010"*******


Take pictures of Copper's feet, so we can see what is happening with them, and the post a message with the link once those pictures are uploaded. Here is info on how to take good hoof pictures:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/files/%202How%20to%20take%20hoof%20photos.htm/


Those are your three missions: no treats; get vet; take hoof pics.

Hope that helps!

Copper's case history:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/CopperTop-%20Oregon/

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support


What should I do next???? How do I get the Laminitis under control?

sky
Grants Pass, OR
2009


Re: question feeding this to princess.. help

ferne fedeli
 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Linda <PapBallou@...> wrote:
My old mare tends to turn her nose up to her mashes if they are warm and have her supps in them. I think the warm water either accentuates the taste of the supps or enhances their smell.
At least your mare usually eats them... My old gelding does eat most
of his supps overnight, but at the morning feeding, I'm lucky if he
eats maybe half. Frustrates the heck out of me! All of these picky
eating things have happened since he has been on Pergolide. I gave
him APF all through the ramping up phase and then stopped after awhile
and the the bottle was empty. Maybe I should continue to give APF???
He's been on Pergolide since October... He gets the Jherb. Isn't it
an adaptogen also?
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


new blood work

millionairess1989
 

Hi,
This is Mill's latest blood work from Cornell which now puts her as IR.

ACTH 22.4 pg/ml (9-35) previously on 7-9-11 40.3
Insulin 20 uIU/ml (10-40) 12.58
Glucose 83 mg/dl (71-113) 88
Free T4 1.49 ng/dl (1.2-1.8) 1.35

She has been on 1.5 mg Pergolide since the end of Dec. and gets approx. 16 pounds of an orchard/bermuda grass mix. The hay is almost gone and I do not have a lab report on it. I am still working on finding new hay. Mill gets 1 1/2 pounds of Wellsolve LS, 2 cups of beet pulp r/s/r plus salt and supplements. When stabled due to weather she also gets 2-3 pounds of TC Safe Starch forage and 1 1/2 pounds of TC Lite pellets.

Any suggestions on where we go from here?

Jennifer & Mill
Jan 2010
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Millionairess


Re: Angela/ WAS New vidoe of Hope walking after trim to x-rays and new boots

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Angela?

Can you get in touch with me at briars at kingston dot net??

Some of your messages aren't getting through,and my messages to you are bouncing.

Thanks.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


cushings and shedding

Roger
 

We have a 13 year old tennessee walking horse that was diagnosed with cushings today, he's been having a lot of problems with hoof abscesses. However, he is shedding like crazy, can horses with cushings shed?


Re: Irregular Heartbeat

Martina Shaw
 

I have a 24 year old Appendix Quarter Horse who has an irregular heartbeat
and is not a Cushing's horse. At the Guelph University, Ontario Veterinary
College they told me that irregular heart beat is not that uncommon it is
just most people never find out about it. The only thing the vet at the
college said is they like to know if they have to tranquilize the horse;
which they were doing to my horse.



Martina and Doc

Collingwood, ON

July 2011





_____

From: EquineCushings@... [mailto:EquineCushings@...]
On Behalf Of kathy52656
Sent: January 26, 2012 10:02
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Irregular Heartbeat


Re: update on Prince,

Amy T <aet001@...>
 

Oh no. I dislike this time of year. Fly free, Prince, green grass and
blue skies forever... Amy in PA '06ish (Herbie IR, Darby, lost beloveds
on HIH site Echo, Dylan, Pebbles, Cherry, Misty C/IR and started my
journey here)
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Anne Louise" <annelouise@...>
wrote:

last vet was here. Sweet, gentle young man. Agreed there was no hope.

Prince is gone now.
Anne Louise
Nova Scotia Canada
Feb 2011


Re: question feeding this to princess.. help

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

My old mare tends to turn her nose up to her mashes if they are warm and have her supps in them. I think the warm water either accentuates the taste of the supps or enhances their smell.

She'll usually eat them during the night, even when somewhat frozen.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: What to do for Laminitis?

Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "skyappy95" <skydove103@...> wrote:


I've been posting about my horse having some Laminitic episodes. What can I do for that?

Sky,

I know the moderators will post with help for you and will ask you to update your history--or fill one out, if you haven't already--but in the meantime I just want to make sure your horse is not getting any grass.

My gelding continued to have flare ups as long as I let him eat grass, even when he was only getting a blade or two through a tiny hole in his grazing muzzle. Our grass was very stressed and I am sure was full of sugars and that is what kept setting off his episodes of pain.

I also wouldn't hesitate to go back to the emergency diet till you get everything sorted out.

My gelding still gets his hay soaked even though it tested very low in S&S. I find that he has no problems when his hay is soaked, but when I fail to soak, he will have frequent 'ouchy' days.

Good luck!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010


Re: question feeding this to princess.. help

ferne fedeli
 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:07 AM, merlin5clougher
<janieclougher@...> wrote:
Lorna wrote a while back about top dressing the minerals - I started that on my three last week, and so far, touch wood, it is working.
I tried the top dressing for a little while after reading Lorna's
post, but my oldie then didn't touch anything!!! I keep trying new
things with him, as he almost never finishes his dish of supplements
with some soaked ODTB, etc. Now I tried leaving off the salt this
morning and put all the salt into his slurpy (some ODTB in a quart or
so of water in a bucket). He ate the TC Lite pellets off the top of
his food in his dish and slurped up all the liquid stuff in the
bucket... Maybe I need to try putting all his supps into the
liquid??? Overnight, he usually eats "most" of what is in his dish.
He used to eat a lot of soaked ODTB with his supps--maybe 5 or 6 cups
of it--and then suddenly didn't want to eat it a month or so ago. He
is a pain in the you know what! The other guys just gobble their
stuff up.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


Re: What to do for Laminitis?

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Sky - or do you prefer to be called Catherine?

Here is what you must do next:

Continue feeding the diet she is currently on. The 8% ESC+starch grass hay should be fine without soaking. Cut out all treats of carrots and turnips and other treats.

Get a vet out to test ACTH, insulin and glucose. In message 162541, Susan posted about a vet near you:

******"I answered her privately but thought I would also email the list in case there is anyone else in this area that would like to know. I live near Gold Hill and use Dr. Dan Cochran. His number is 541-826-6752. My Arab gelding has mild cushings and Dr. Dan is so great with explaining things to me. Andy is 28 and I have had him since he was born.
Susan
Sam's Valley, OR
May 2010"*******


Take pictures of Copper's feet, so we can see what is happening with them, and the post a message with the link once those pictures are uploaded. Here is info on how to take good hoof pictures:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/files/%202How%20to%20take%20hoof%20photos.htm/


Those are your three missions: no treats; get vet; take hoof pics.

Hope that helps!

Copper's case history:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/CopperTop-%20Oregon/

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support

What should I do next???? How do I get the Laminitis under control?

sky
Grants Pass, OR
2009

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