Date   

Re: Pauli in trouble.. help needed

Marianne Herzberger
 

Cheryl,

maybe I'm wrong but I would consider hoof boots if the sole would be sensitive. And this isn't the case at all.
I got her a pair of stable boots ( look like transportation protectors) with a soft, thick and warm lining inside. These boots cover the heel and part of the hoof, so should give some help in keeping it warm.

Yes, I will consider getting APF as that is one of the few things that are recommended on this list that can be bought in Holland. Unless one of the experienced guru's tell me not to.
I'll wait patiently for one of them to chime in..

I feel I must give her bute right now - she's getting two satches a day for now and she still is in severe pain. I realise that - if in the end the present situation turns out to be an abcess afterall, bute will not help.

Marianne | The Netherlands | EC 2011
Pauli's daily progress: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Marianne/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "capnmrgn2000" <capnmrgn2000@...> wrote:

Marianne,
Laura's suggestion to try APF is spot on - I would definitely give that a try. I'm thinking it may not work if you're giving bute, though. Hopefully someone else will chime in if that's the case! Personally, I would not use bute unless the pain was severe enough for her to go off her feed. Even then, I'd most likely try other things first. Another supplement to consider would be ALCAR - there should be info in the files and you'd get lots of feedback using an archive search. I'd also still put her in boots, even with your current set-up. It really couldn't hurt and may well be very helpful.

Cheryl and Ollie
Newbury, MA
Jan. 2004
EC list support


Re: Sonny's new blood work

Nancy C
 

Hi Deb

What do you mean exactly by supplier, please? Is it the grower? If it's remotely from the same field, cut the same time of year it would be better than nothing.

While it's not as accurate as the 603 test we recommend, you can get the 601 hay test for $29.00

You need 3 grams of magnesium for the emergency diet. At two tabs per day, you've been giving him 500 mg. To feed these 250 mg tabs looks like this: 3 grams = 3000 milligrams ÷ 250 = 12 tabs a day.

When I said to stop the Remission, it was in favor of using the more cost effective Mag Oxide from Blue Seal or other feed grade product. You had indicated wanting to lower expenses due to vet bills, etc. A teaspoon is about 3 grams. At that rate a 40 pound bag for $20 (or so) will last a long, long time. The Remission at this point is better than the 250 mg human tabs but is more expensive than the Mag Ox.

If you let me know what you decide about the hay thing, there are some suggestions I can make about copper and zinc. It would require that you buy the minerals or a supplement. We can give you a couple of good ideas.

Hope Sonny liked the boots.

I'm really sorry about your husband. Rehabbing these guys isn't easy but it can be done. Sorry you are having a bad time. Best of luck and a pat for Sonny.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Sonny's new blood work

Deb Barnes
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Deb

Sorry you've not had a response. If you've found the IR Calculator, you know he is very severely IR.

<http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html>
He really could use more support on the diet front. You have not tested your hay, am I right? With about 50/50 ODTB Cubes and hay, Sonny's really getting at best, only half of what he needs for nutritional support. When might testing be a possibility? Can we brain storm getting that done?
My husband just told me today that I should put Sonny in his stall and feed him, if he gets better OK, and if not, oh well. You think I'm going to get hay tested right now? Only if I get a divorce.

He's getting a tablespoon of Remission according to your CH. I think I recall he was getting extra mag? Can you tell us how much?
You told me to stop the Remission so I did. I bought 250mg mag tabs at the drugstore and have been giving him 2 of those a day. I just looked back at the emergency diet and see he should be getting more than twice that, so I'll up it.

The thing about testing the hay is this: if we knew better what he was eating via testing, we may be able to really fine tune the magnesium. Get it much tighter. Magnesium is critical but you don't want to over do it. We'd need to know how it balances with the calcium and phosphorous. He also needs more selenium and iodine than what he's getting.
We just got a new load of hay from the supplier we were using last year when Sonny got better. I have the results from the test last year, do you think that would be at all helpful?

You're working on your trim, every three weeks or so, yes? He needs copper and zinc to help with more healthy foot growth. Have some thoughts on that too but wanted to hear about the above first, if I may.
Cheryl has been here twice, last time was a week ago, she is coming again in 2 weeks.

I hope he's better in the easy boots. If he is still that sore, I would be concerned about asking him to move. Providing an area for him to move in at his discretion may be good. If you can monitor how he does in that environment, he may begin to tell you when he's feeling better for a hand walk.
If I let him out of his stall while I'm in the barn cleaning, he will walk around on his own, at least until he finds some hay to eat.
He has developed thrush from all the deep soft bedding he was in and that might be a big factor in his not wanting to walk. I'm working on that.

It's a catch-22, this exercise thing. You want to move them for the insulin sensitizing aspect of the exercise but if they are still actively laminitic and/or still rotated within the hoof capsule, it may not be the right time.

Hope we can work on the diet a bit.
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Deb & Sonny
2010, PA
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Deb%20B%20in%20PA/


Re: William

muff747
 

I'm so sorry Maxi, I really feel for you. He will be peacefully grazing now in that warm lush meadow in heaven with the sunshine on his back.
Thinking about you,
Chris & Matty UK 07/09

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Macs McCutcheon" <samccutcheon@...> wrote:

Just to say my beautiful boy William has gone. He fell asleep this
afternoon. My world is shattered.


Re: William

Amy T <aet001@...>
 

Oh Maxi. I'm so sorry for your loss. Fly free, William, green grass
and blue skies forever. Amy in PA '06ish (Herbie IR, Darby, lost
beloveds on HIH site Echo, Dylan, Pebbles, Cherry, Misty who was C/IR
and started the journey here)
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Macs McCutcheon"
<samccutcheon@...> wrote:

Just to say my beautiful boy William has gone. He fell asleep this
afternoon. My world is shattered.

Maxi


Advice Sought for Introducing the Emergency Diet and Adding Supplements

rainbowfarm140
 

We are a bit overwhelmed by both the amount of information and our needed learning curve for dealing with our newly diagnosed IR Morgan mare.

We began the emergency diet and she was receiving 1cup of timothy pellets, 2000 iu of Vitamin E, 1/2 cup ground flax, 3000mg mag oxide each night along with her hay. She readily ate this.

Last weekend we began adding, a drop of iodine, a part dose of Cu/Zn, an ounce of jiaogalin at the evening feeding and she started leaving part of it each morning.

Question: we want her to receive the supplements she needs to prevent laminitis and enhance health, with her eating the emer. diet of Timothy, Vit E, mag oxide and flax, what would your recommendations be on the introduction of the other supplements? What order of importance do you place on adding these other things?

Thank you for your feedback.

Belinda and Kari
Vermont


Re: Laying Down

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lindy Max and Matrix joined 8 2010" <lgriff6540@...> wrote:

Greatly appreciate guidance on these topic - we have been fighting a mechanically induced founder - from a botched resection for the past 25 months -
Hi Lindy,

Do you have a case history and photos/radiographs posted? Why was the resection done in the first place? Was anything done to help stabilize the hoof wall afterwards?

Horses in flat out lateral recumbency for a long period of time can develop lung issues or muscle issues from pressure. If they move frequently and are often sternal, this isn't so much of a problem.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Laying Down

Elva J Mico
 

Replies to this are being sent privately to me, Elva. However, the horse in question is in Florida and belongs to Lindy. I have left her post to the Cushings list below. I have forwarded the PM's to her, but I think it would be better to send directly to her or to answer on the list. Thanks so much tho, for caring and for responding to Lindy.

Lindy's email <griff6540@...> or reply to <EquineCushings@...>

Elva/Corrales, NM/June 2004

Lindy Max and Matrix joined 8 2010 wrote:

Greatly appreciate guidance on these topic - we have been fighting a
mechanically induced founder - from a botched resection for the past
25 months - for some time he has been laying down a lot but has been
able to stand four or 5 times a day for periods of 20 minutes up to
an hour or more - depending on the day. Matrix is a 12 year old QH.
As of yesterday - he has been down since 2 pm yesterday. We have not
been able to get him to stand. He seems to be having problems with
his hind end - have a body worker coming this afternoon in case she
can figure out what is going on.
He is eating, drinking and doing all bodiy functions laying down - is
in good spirits, bright eyes......
Two Questions -
1. how long can a horse lay down before serious complications arise?
2. what should I do to help him?
Thank you very much for any advice you can give. I love my horse
very much - and want to do the best things for him.
Lindy & Matrix 8/2010


Re: William

Pauline <takarri@...>
 

I's so sorry to hear your sad news. My heartfelt sympathies to you Maxi


Pauline
Jack/Spur
Angel Harry
Aust Aug 07


Re: William

Valeree Smith
 

Maxi,

I am so very sorry. He has definitely gone on to a pasture crowded with friends.


Valeree & GD
ECHK Support Team
SoCal, 09/03





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Re: Pauli in trouble.. help needed

capnmrgn2000 <capnmrgn2000@...>
 


Anyway, back on topic: I donot have boots, but will be getting some legwarmers for her today. I realise that this may not help for the hooves but I guess when the legs are being kept warm, the bloodflow will be kept going in a way. We'll see..

I was wondering: might APF help her - I hate having to give all thos chemical medications like bute, ascal600, tranquigel or even ace.. :(
Marianne,
Laura's suggestion to try APF is spot on - I would definitely give that a try. I'm thinking it may not work if you're giving bute, though. Hopefully someone else will chime in if that's the case! Personally, I would not use bute unless the pain was severe enough for her to go off her feed. Even then, I'd most likely try other things first. Another supplement to consider would be ALCAR - there should be info in the files and you'd get lots of feedback using an archive search. I'd also still put her in boots, even with your current set-up. It really couldn't hurt and may well be very helpful.

Cheryl and Ollie
Newbury, MA
Jan. 2004
EC list support


Re: Laying Down

Elva J Mico
 

Lindy Max and Matrix joined 8 2010 wrote:
Two Questions -
1. how long can a horse lay down before serious complications arise?
2. what should I do to help him?
I forgot to say that with him lying down you should offer water several times a day so that he does not get dehydrated.

Elva and Angel Satin
Corrales, NM
June 2004


Re: Sonny's new blood work

Nancy C
 

Hi Deb

Sorry you've not had a response. If you've found the IR Calculator, you know he is very severely IR.

<http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html>

You've cut his insulin by half which is great but I think there is more that can be done.

He really could use more support on the diet front. You have not tested your hay, am I right? With about 50/50 ODTB Cubes and hay, Sonny's really getting at best, only half of what he needs for nutritional support. When might testing be a possibility? Can we brain storm getting that done?

He's getting a tablespoon of Remission according to your CH. (Thanks a TON for filling that out and supplying the link. An incredible help.) I think I recall he was getting extra mag? Can you tell us how much?

The thing about testing the hay is this: if we knew better what he was eating via testing, we may be able to really fine tune the magnesium. Get it much tighter. Magnesium is critical but you don't want to over do it. We'd need to know how it balances with the calcium and phosphorous. He also needs more selenium and iodine than what he's getting.

You're working on your trim, every three weeks or so, yes? He needs copper and zinc to help with more healthy foot growth. Have some thoughts on that too but wanted to hear about the above first, if I may.

I hope he's better in the easy boots. If he is still that sore, I would be concerned about asking him to move. Providing an area for him to move in at his discretion may be good. If you can monitor how he does in that environment, he may begin to tell you when he's feeling better for a hand walk.

It's a catch-22, this exercise thing. You want to move them for the insulin sensitizing aspect of the exercise but if they are still actively laminitic and/or still rotated within the hoof capsule, it may not be the right time.

Hope we can work on the diet a bit.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Deb" <myprettypaso@...> wrote:


The only thing he is not getting is exercise. I've tried hand walking him but he only goes so far and plants his feet, then I have to coax him back to his stall. Going to try him with easy boots tomorrow.

Deb & Sonny
2010, PA
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Deb%20B%20in%20PA/


Re: Laying Down

Elva J Mico
 

Hi Lindy,
I am not one of the experts here but I do hope the moderators will respond to you with some advice. I can only tell you that my experience has been that a horse can lay down for a couple of days, and note that my "experience" is with two horses, and then get up on the third and walk around. I don't know if sometimes they just need to rest in order for repair and recovery to begin or what but good that you have a body person coming. See how things are after she does her thing.

Elva and Angel Satin
Corrales, NM
June 2004




Lindy Max and Matrix joined 8 2010 wrote:

Greatly appreciate guidance on these topic - we have been fighting a
mechanically induced founder - from a botched resection for the past
25 months - for some time he has been laying down a lot but has been
able to stand four or 5 times a day for periods of 20 minutes up to
an hour or more - depending on the day. Matrix is a 12 year old QH.
As of yesterday - he has been down since 2 pm yesterday. We have not
been able to get him to stand. He seems to be having problems with
his hind end - have a body worker coming this afternoon in case she
can figure out what is going on.
He is eating, drinking and doing all bodiy functions laying down - is
in good spirits, bright eyes......
Two Questions -
1. how long can a horse lay down before serious complications arise?
2. what should I do to help him?
Thank you very much for any advice you can give. I love my horse
very much - and want to do the best things for him.
Lindy & Matrix 8/2010
--
Elva
I was a dancer. One night at a gypsy camp, I drank a potion meant for
another and lost my heart to a horse named Satin.


Re: William

Nancy C
 

Maxi, I am so very sorry. Such a hard time for you. For anyone who's had to go through this.

May your memories in time come to fill in what I know is a huge hole in your heart. William knew how much you loved him.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Treating Teddy Arthritis

Nancy C
 

Hi Josey

While it is a potent supplement, Injected glucosamine can make it worse. The jury is out on oral supplementation but many members have seen worsening IR using oral glucosamine.

MSM may interfere with copper absorption so the group recommends not using it if at all possible.

Goal is to avoid laminitis at all costs. Often laminitis is diagnosed as arthritis. You may have already thought of this but wanted to throw it out for consideration. Some horses could be really laminitic vs arthritic or could have a combination of both going on.

What members are reporting as the best approach currently is a bioflavanoid like Movease, HA and chondroitin.

More info on movease here

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/159864>

and at www.mybesthorse.com. HA and chondroitin cn be purchased there as well or at www.purebulk.com

Not all horses are HA responsive. Getting the products separately will allow you to judge effectiveness better, raise or lower dosages as needed and eliminate one if it's not working.

Hope this helps.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Josey" <JMillwood5@...> wrote:

I have been treating him with Devil's Claw Plus without much improvement. And he doesn't like to eat it.
I would like to treat him with a product with Glucosamine, HA, MSM and Chrondoitin.


Re: LEPTIN TESTING

skyappy95
 

Hi Jane,
I'm going to be doing my first testing on my horse & all this is new to me & my vet.
Is there a link that I can print out for my vet?
Thank you,
sky
oregon 2009


Re: William

Karen <ksb-c3@...>
 

My heart aches for you. Fly Free Sweet William. Blue skies and Green Grass forever.

KarenTommi and Angel Chantilly
3-2005 Bend,Ore
Happy Trails Tilly-Until We Meet Again


Re: Jana and Mikado Update still not getting better- now new trim

jennifer
 

Oh no, I meant the ridges! I thought the ridges are only rasped off for aesthetic purposes, I didn't know it's beneficial to rasp them off. :) I'm making a really bad job of making myself clear, just as bad as getting my brain around everything, these days. Haha! Having a busy week, probably just too exhausted to post!

Thank you for thinking of Larry. We are very relieved too!

Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barb" <bmccray@...> wrote:

Hi Jennifer,

No need to feel like a dunce!! The wedge doesn't necessarily have to be totally rasped off


Re: William

palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...>
 

Maxi,

My heart aches for you.
Fly free sweet William.

Susan
EC Primary Response
San Diego 1.07

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