Date   

Re: HELP please?? greener hay - am i heading for trouble?

Nancy C
 

Hi Rachel

"Green" is not the problem. "Yellow" does not make hay safe.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "rory1mickey1" <rachel@...> wrote:

thankyou - ive just had another delivery of 10 bales of greener than i would like hay and im desperately trying to source some yellow stalkier stuff is this necessary?


Re: HELP please?? greener hay - am i heading for trouble?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Rachel,
Ok,I found your file in the Template section.

Here is the link:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/_Case%20History%20Template%20and%20Ins/rachel/

So now when you sign your posts please have name,location,date you joined us,and the link to the CH, ok?

Are you feeding vitamin E ?
Are you feeding flax oil, or flax seed?



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: Please advise w/Sabrina

sunshine12982000
 

Thanks, Lorna and Nancy. We've been down this road before, but never so severely.

Nancy, you're absolutely correct - 2010 hay. The truckload we managed to buy this past season tested OK in protein, etc., but higher in sugar/starch. Then it turned out even our cow won't eat it. Expensive bedding for the cow. We've been trying to meet up w/a man with supposedly low s/s prairie grass for several months, but he's out of town on weekends. Is prairie grass an OK hay in general?

No, we weren't using boots with our barefoot trimmers. Stopped using them as soon as she was sound. Like I said, she hasn't been this bad since maybe the first time in '06.

This AM she not only didn't want to stand, she was lying out flat and didn't even pick her head up much. It killed us, but we left her and her breakfast and came in to get hubby off to work. He ran out 20 min. later to peek, and she was up, eating her soaked ODTB breakfast. We didn't see her walk. Wondered if the extreme symptoms could be reaction to her first dose of J-herb that she got last night?

OT, but I'll only be able to check in intermittently because my computer got a virus yesterday PM and is totally frozen. Have to get to another PC to get online.

Just checked her again-one hour after hubby did. She's cleaned up her cubes and is munching hay. Still haven't seen how she's walking but last night was clump, clump.

Thanks again.

Gayle and Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/


Re: HELP please?? greener hay - am i heading for trouble?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Rachel,

I looked for your file in Case History 5, but couldn't find it.Can you tell us where you put it?

I'm afraid there is just mo way to know how appropriate your hay is by looking at it.It needs to be tested.

Failing that,as Dr. Kellon has said,it needs to be soaked(be sure the soak water is drained away where he can't get at it).
I would not soak for as long as 12 hours myself.


i have since tried 5hrs instead of our normal routine and this caused some footy/squity problems.
Is that the only change made at that time? No changes in weather,turnout,etc?
What is 'squity' ?

Ok, so let us know where you posted your case history.
And when you reply please add the date you joined the group to your signature,ok?

We ask everyone to delete the message they are replying to before hitting Send.This makes it everso much more pleasant for people who are reading the Digest format.Otherwise they have to scroll and scroll through all the repeated text before they can get to a new message.
It also makes it easier for people helping .

Thanks.
We'll get there.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: HELP please?? greener hay - am i heading for trouble?

rory1mickey1 <rachel@...>
 

I dont know how to reply like you have so i'll just list my answers here;
a rough history is done its 'mickey.doc' im not sure how to link it
i tried for about 3 months butyes i agree about that time period being alot to do with 'time needed'

i have since tried 5hrs instead of our normal routine and this caused some footy/squity problems.

however 12 hrs suits my routine with them this is really not the problem; the problem is my fear of colour.

yes his feet have now completely grown out bar about 2mmm of detached wall; since he foundered on all 4 feet the back 2 still have about 1 inch of wall to grow down.

thankyou - ive just had another delivery of 10 bales of greener than i would like hay and im desperately trying to source some yellow stalkier stuff is this necessary?

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:

Hi Rachel,


i did 1 hour and there was no improvement, then 5, then 8 - he improved at 8
Can you give us a time line?
For how many meals did you try soaking(draining) your hay for an hour?
What improvements did you see as soon as you began soaking at 8 hours?
Is it certain the improvements were from the 8 hour soaks? Or could they have been that enough 'soaking' days had gone by to allow the improvements to happen?
I'm asking because usually there is nothing to be gained by soaking longer than an hour.

Sorry for all the questions, but the devil is often in the details.

but still wasnt enough to get him through founder and ready for the exercise he depsterately needed.
By this you mean he was still very uncomfortable,even with the soaking?
What else were you doing to help him at this time?

I then did 12 hr with a water change (on the day one obviously as im not going to sit up all night) and then rinsing throughly twice.
For how many meals did you do this?
What improvements,if any,did you notice?

Now doing an hour of work
I've managed to get myself lost here. Do you mean that the above was all in the past,then, and that he is sound now,except going over stones?
He has had enough time to grown new feet after foundering?


what are your oppinions on rye
Rye has the potential to be high in sugar and not recommended.

http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/safergrasses.pdf


It will be really helpful to see your case history as soon as you have time to get it done.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42879/*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5

Hang in and we'll get this sorted out.

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: HELP please?? greener hay - am i heading for trouble?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Rachel,


i did 1 hour and there was no improvement, then 5, then 8 - he improved at 8
Can you give us a time line?
For how many meals did you try soaking(draining) your hay for an hour?
What improvements did you see as soon as you began soaking at 8 hours?
Is it certain the improvements were from the 8 hour soaks? Or could they have been that enough 'soaking' days had gone by to allow the improvements to happen?
I'm asking because usually there is nothing to be gained by soaking longer than an hour.

Sorry for all the questions, but the devil is often in the details.

but still wasnt enough to get him through founder and ready for the exercise he depsterately needed.
By this you mean he was still very uncomfortable,even with the soaking?
What else were you doing to help him at this time?

I then did 12 hr with a water change (on the day one obviously as im not going to sit up all night) and then rinsing throughly twice.
For how many meals did you do this?
What improvements,if any,did you notice?

Now doing an hour of work
I've managed to get myself lost here. Do you mean that the above was all in the past,then, and that he is sound now,except going over stones?
He has had enough time to grown new feet after foundering?


what are your oppinions on rye
Rye has the potential to be high in sugar and not recommended.

http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/safergrasses.pdf


It will be really helpful to see your case history as soon as you have time to get it done.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42879/*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5

Hang in and we'll get this sorted out.

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: HELP please?? greener hay - am i heading for trouble?

rory1mickey1 <rachel@...>
 

hi - thankyou but i tried various; i did 1 hour and there was no improvement, then 5, then 8 - he improved at 8 but still wasnt enough to get him through founder and ready for the exercise he depsterately needed. I then did 12 hr with a water change (on the day one obviously as im not going to sit up all night) and then rinsing throughly twice. I was just concerned that despite all of this if all i could get was rye hay or greener ;eafier hay; this would create a problem and with this founder pony; i am for all the world - heading out the other side. Now doing an hour of work (ponying) 6 times a week or 3 times with increasing intensity groundwork/online stuff slowly introducing trot. the 'ponying' includes differnt terrain including tarmac but not w#quite stones yet as he tells me he isnt ready.

what are your oppinions on rye and colour of hay if this is all i can get hold of whilst my hay is growing to be cut? I will of course analyse then but pointless now. I am analysis grass soon also and wondered if i cut all the way along the 'W' or just at points?

thankyou!
Rachel (mickey and Rory - rory history coming soon)
Kent UK

--- In EquineCushings@..., Linda Rollins <lindarollins38@...> wrote:

Hi Rachel,
We recommend soaking hay for 1 hour in cold water, or 1/2 hour in hot water.
Linda

Visit our site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Linda in MA, Peanut in CT - 09.07





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Duke's latest hoof pictures: Help!

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Mini Duke definitely had winter laminitis this year and his best friend, Nancy (!). felt his diet was tight and therefore it must be the trim.
Donna -

Yeah, the trim has gotten away from where it should be. I took a quick peek.

These little guys can be a challenge to keep where they should be - they are hard to trim, those tiny feet are hard to trim, and when they develop a fast growing heel as can happen with laminitis, they seem to grow it back faster than the bigger horses. A weekly trim schedule with major attention to the heels is needed.

I don't know what the farrier is using to trim the feet as far as tools go. I have struggled with regular sized nippers, older hands, and finally ended up buying a pair of farrier nail cutters. Are just the perfect size to maneuver around those little feet and can get in there and get the job done. And the grinder!

So with the heels so high, his hoof capsules have become ballet slippers to him. His toes can't help but hurt. You should see my deformed toes from ballet - never mind.

Do you need some markups? If you were to take x-rays, you'd be surprised at how much foot is there that shouldn't be there.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Duke's latest hoof pictures: Help!

Donna Coughlin
 

Dear Hoof Gurus and Friends of Duke,

Mini Duke definitely had winter laminitis this year and his best friend, Nancy (!). felt his diet was tight and therefore it must be the trim. I've finally managed to take hoof pictures and post them on EC Hoof; see the Feb. 2012 pictures: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1892079714/pic/list

Somehow, they downloaded totally out of order from my one-foot-all-views-to-the-next-foot iPhoto file, and once in EC hoof, "move" does not move them within your file, but somewhere else, or at least that's what I understood. So I apologize, they are completely scrambled. Also, last April I was able to label each one so it showed on the overall file, but this time the labels show up only when you click to enlarge each image. I have NO idea what I did wrong, but hope I got them labeled correctly--I was trying to go from iPhoto to the ECHoof file.....and my brain was turning to mush.

The blacksmith was here on Feb. 2nd and I have rasped his front toes even blunter twice since then. I'm a bit nervous when I do it, trying to follow Linda's mock-ups from last April. The new-in-September blacksmith was rolling his front toes, but when he saw how much better Duke was walking after I got brave with the rasp, he realized "our" method was better--but I'm not sure he had done enough.....I may have to get the vet and digital x-ray here for his next visit if you all think the trim isn't yet right.

I had the vet come out late Dec. when the laminitis started and she did chiro and acupuncture, which helped a lot, and suggested treating him for Lyme's. He just finished 60 days of doxy, which helped, but not at much as I had hoped. Some days he seems more comfortable and walks around with only one or two longish (flat out) naps during the day. Today he was good--boots off for part of the day (ground is no longer frozen) and only one nap! He is eating well, seems happy, still no pulses, no heat, but I think he could be more comfortable. He is very ancient, and perhaps it's just age too?? He does get Mov-Ease and "safe" joint supplements (see his file below).

Thank you for any help!!

Donna Coughlin
Duke, Obi and Robin
CT Dec. 2009
http://pets.groups.yahoo. com/group/ ECHistory3/ files/Donna% 20Coughlin% 2C%20CT/


Re: Please advise w/Sabrina

Nancy C
 

Hi Gayle

Always go with what Dr Kellon says!

The hay in your file looks to be from 2010. Is that what you are feeding? If not, you want Equi-Analytical #603. Hay can vary from year to year depending on grower practices.

They can have extreme discomfort with out heat and/or pulses. When you had barefoot trims before were you using boots as well?

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Please advise w/Sabrina

Lorna <briars@...>
 

HI Gayle,


I checked the hay report in my case history. I guess the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, etc. are not what you need.
Yes,we need those.We also look for the trace minerals,copper,zinc,manganese.
Test 603 will get these.

Here is your case history link.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/

Can you include it in your signature when you post? That makes it easier for folks to find it,rather than having to dig for it amongst all the others.

Hang on.It will get better soon.
Things will start falling into place for you.It's just a bit of a nightmare at the beginning, but really worth the sweat, and tears.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: Please advise w/Sabrina

sunshine12982000
 

You mention in you CH you are feeding hay tested at low ESC and starch. Did you also get the minerals analyzed? If not would you? That will allow us to cut to the chase and finely tune the diet.
I checked the hay report in my case history. I guess the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, etc. are not what you need. I looked at Equi-Analytical website. Is #604 what I need?

Add the Integrity Hoof.
Will order.

For now yes, on the Platinum Performance at 1 mg and 1/4 tsp of Source.
Will order.

You may have winter laminitis but you've got all the helpful components in place or on their way, right? Wraps, jiaogulan, aakg.
This is where I get confused. Dr. K told me to stop AAKG. Message #163954, which I had already done. I started her on J tonight. Put it with a tbs. of flax and she gobbled it right down.

Did you ever work with a barefoot trimmer? Seems to me there was one in TN that members had reported being very happy with.
All four we worked with were barefoot trimmers. I'd love the name of another to try. There's a really good one, a lady named Gwen, who came once, but she won't come as far as we are anymore.

She was so painful this PM she could hardly walk, but I still couldn't detect a pulse or any heat. I just don't get it.

Thank you again for all your advice.

Gayle & Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN


Re: Hay Testing

covicp
 

I've also uploaded a completed excel spreadsheet/worksheet for Nowee with this data (from the testing)on it but I don't know where to go from here.
Can someone please look over my numbers and tell me what to do next?

Thanks!

Peggy
Nowee, Oreo RIP 6/2011
Montana
Nov 2010
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Peggy_Montana/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "covicp" <covicp@...> wrote:

I have the numbers from Equi_analytical for test #603 and will post it in my history file. Can someone please help me figure out what I need to balance Nowee's diet?


Re: Please advise w/Sabrina

Nancy C
 

Hi Gayle

You're not dumb just stressed out and rightfully so. Hope I can simplify.

You mention in you CH you are feeding hay tested at low ESC and starch. Did you also get the minerals analyzed? If not would you? That will allow us to cut to the chase and finely tune the diet.

Keep the mag as you are doing or better yet, look for feed grade mag ox. You may have to special order it. You may be able to add more if we know what our hay mineral profile looks like.

Add the Integrity Hoof. The amount of alfalfa has not effected IR horses that have trialed or regularly used the product. Distillers grains in this amount are not an issue.

For now yes, on the Platinum Performance at 1 mg and 1/4 tsp of Source. That maybe can come up a tad more but I need to run some numbers and if you have or get a hay analysis, I can do it all at once.


<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/104392>

You may have winter laminitis but you've got all the helpful components in place or on their way, right? Wraps, jiaogulan, aakg.

Did you ever work with a barefoot trimmer? Seems to me there was one in TN that members had reported being very happy with. Not that you guys aren't doing a good job, but sometimes it helps to have another pair of eyes. Seeing pics would be great but getting a trimmer out might be the fastest, best way to go, if I'm remembering correctly that there is a good one in TN.

I don't think I would transport her 35 miles for rads right now either based on what you have described. But if you can get some trim help, maybe you can make her comfortable enough to make the ride.

Hang in there, Gayle. Hope I got everything?

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Dumor Equistages

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Barbara, I meant to include the analysis and ingredients for Dumor Equistages in my last post.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/dumor-reg-equistages-horse-feed-50-lb--5109922

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI 2007

--- In EquineCushings@..., "edain_rides" <edain@...> wrote:

Does anyone have an analysis for Dumor (aka Purina) Equistages, especially the ESC and starch? >


Re: Dumor Equistages

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Barbara,

I searched and I can't find the Esc and Starch numbers for Dumor, but I might make a suggestion for helping you track them down....

Based on my search, it is my understanding is that Dumor Equistages is made by Purina for the Tractor Supply Company to sell as their house brand horse feed. It is supposed to comparable to Purina's Strategy Line of feeds. You might want to give Tractor Supply a call/email and ask for the S/S number or at least see if they will verify it is comparable to the Strategy feeds. What I have found on line is that Strategy has a very high NSC. I have found references of 28-30%. I can't find anything on the Purina site or Tractor Supply regarding NSC, Esc or Starch for Strategy or Dumor Equistages.

Someone else may have more information for you. There is a Strategy Feed Tag posted in the Feed Analyses File, but it doesn't have the S/S.

I agree with you that just based on the analysis and ingredients, regardless of S/S that there are much better options to feed.

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI 2007

--- In EquineCushings@..., "edain_rides" <edain@...> wrote:

Does anyone have an analysis for Dumor (aka Purina) Equistages, especially the ESC and starch?


Dumor Equistages

edain_rides
 

Does anyone have an analysis for Dumor (aka Purina) Equistages, especially the ESC and starch? I know what the ingredients are, and I would never feed it to an IR horse. Molasses as the fourth ingredient and wheat middlings the first. But, my hope here is to convince a person who is feeding it to a horse that used to belong to me (a long story that doesn't bear going into)to stop doing so, and for that having the ESC and starch numbers would help.

Thanks,
Barbara
Middle Tennessee (formerly southwest PA)
Sept 2007


Re: Firocoxib- Was: Vet that will prescribe pergolide (compounded) in LA

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

My understanding that Equioxx did the same thing with the Firocoxib, by labeling it for horses as Prascend by labeling Pergolide for Horses. I think Firocoxib is not available in generic, no brand name form. It would be nice if it was available through a compounding pharmacy.

A bit of a Catch 22 with this. Using the firocoxib for a horse is off label. It is not illegal per se, and is used by many. If there is a complication from it in the horse, its use would be considered *not meeting standards* which a health care practitioner of any kind does not want to flirt with.

So a vet has the right to be wary and stand her/his ground. When my vet brought up possibly using the dog version (she is very conscious of money problems, especially in the area I live in), I questioned her (I was actually surprised) about using it off label. We discussed it and both agreed to try it, knowing there are some *sticky* points about it.

The AVMA is adamant it can't be used, but what they don't know...

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Firocoxib- Was: Vet that will prescribe pergolide (compounded) in LA

Skylane <skylane@...>
 

I attended a clinic for geriatric equines and the following was also discussed. The vet said that when he realized that Equioxx was essentially re-compounded Previcox (Firocoxib)labeled for equines
and eight to ten times the price. $300/mo is just not financially doable for many.
Previcox and Equioxx are the same thing... Firocoxib.
Previcox is labeled for dogs and comes in two sizes...
227 mg and 57 mg.
The horse and dog metabolisms are very different and a dog will get a much higher dose/weight than a horse.
My vet prescribed the 57 mg Previcox
If only the 227 mg pills are available, they can be divided by 1/4.... almost exactly the same dose.
Depending on how you do it, based on the 1800petmeds pricing, you can get that price down to $22.50-50/month as opposed to your Vet's price of $300/month.
The "danger of overdose" is present with all meds.
My understanding that Equioxx did the same thing with the Firocoxib, by labeling it for horses as Prascend by labeling Pergolide for Horses. I think Firocoxib is not available in generic, no brand name form. It would be nice if it was available through a compounding pharmacy.

Michael~
aka Mike & Spike
San Jose, Ca
Oct, '10


I was told Previcox is the dog version of Equioxx? My vet will not
prescribe anything other than Equioxx, which is $10 a day. I can't do that
for my elderly pasture puff. My young one is insured, so she just did a
dose of Equioxx..but insurance paid for that.

Is it possible to get a generic equine formulation of Equioxx?? I was told
by my trainer that because of the issues with the dosage for dog vs
equines, our vet refuses to prescribe it due to the dangers of overdose.
So, Equioxx only.


Re: Hay Testing

ferne fedeli
 

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:58 AM, covicp <covicp@q.com> wrote:
Hi Ferne,
Are you able to get to my history folder? I posted both in there.
Oh sorry, didn't realize you had posted both. I will check. I'm
almost through with the current #601 tested hay, and will get
the #603 next time anyway, but was curious. Thanks!
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

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