Date   

Re: Sugar's Blood Work

psalm23grl <joyful.heart.18@...>
 

I see that sometimes the link is not working: try this instead:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20%26%20Sugar/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "psalm23grl" <joyful.heart.18@...> wrote:

Hi there,

I have a 13 year old Fjord horse mare
who is perfect weight and does not have a long coat. She has been diagnosed with
Cushing's by the vet. The only symptoms she has is reoccurring laminitis, fat
pockets over her eyes, and warm feet. The farrier put her in some type of hoof casting and her feet are no longer warm. Today she walking as if she was completely normal, the best I have seen since she got sick. The casting will come off at the end of the month, and we are thinking of using EasyBoot RX's after that.

We are also getting our hay tested.

Sugar's blood work was faxed to us today.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20%26%20Sugar. Sugar's
ACTH result is 14.5 and her insulin is 270. She was not tested for anything else
according to the blood results. The actual fax on the blood results are in that
folder.

If anyone could comment on the results it would be much appreciated.

Laura & Sugar
February 2012
Ontario, Canada


Re: Sugar's Blood Work

psalm23grl <joyful.heart.18@...>
 

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all of your input. So you think that she does have IR as well as Cushing's? Even though her insulin range is considered "normal"?

I had hesitated to start the Emergency Diet because I thought it was only for horses who are insulin resistant. I'm going to start it now, though! I have a question: in the Emergency Diet document, it speaks about changing 1/3 of the horse's hay weight for beat pulp if the horse is underweight or if hay cannot be soaked. She is around 985 lbs and is 14hh and stocky and the vet says she looks to be at a normal weight. Should I still interchange 1/3 of her hay diet with beet pulp?

It also mentions that this is only a temporary diet. When we do get our hay tested and potentially get new hay, what diet should we switch to? Is there another document for this?

Also, as a third question, it says in the document "the colour of the hay has nothing to do with the sugar content". The problem we have is that if we are to change hay, we will have to buy it without getting the hay analyzed as it takes a LONG time. We were going to look for hay that didn't look very green, but if this in not an accurate way to tell, how will be able to tell if the hay is appropriate to switch to or just as bad as the hay we are switching from?

Thank you so much for all of your help. The vet assigned to us only 1 mg of pergolide but we have been giving her 2 mg since the hay has not been tested yet. She is doing MUCH better and is walking almost normally now..we weren't sure if it was the casting she is in, doubling the pergolide, or something else. We would like to try doing 1.5 mg though, especially once we start the emergency diet and other interventions.

Thank you SO much for all of your help! Any suggestions and observations are most welcome, as we do not yet know much about Cushing's and sometimes feel very lost in what we can do to help. The vet basically gave us pergolide and didn't suggest much else to do. It made me feel helpless, but coming on her makes me feel as if there is something I can do to help her.

Thanks again.

Laura & Sugar
February 2012
Ontario, Canada


Re: New Source for Pergolide Not 100% Successful

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

I apologize for any adverse effects caused by the switch to the new source and wanted to make everyone aware of what was going on and the steps that we have taken to ensure that we continue to produce the highest quality Pergolide available.
Hi Ian -

My vet was here the other day and I talked with her about how hard it is to control my horse's symptoms in the fall, but that this year I did so by increasing his pergolide over and over to the point that he had his best fall in 7 years. It's the same with him every fall so I doubt it's the pergolide.

She did question if the pergolide was tested for potency and if so, could those data be shared with clients if asked for...so, I think many of us utilize your service and would like to know.

I have not questioned the quality - it's just that my boy has had PPID for so long and there are so few that seem to take the amounts of pergolide that he does, only in the fall. I don't think my vet has ever dealt with this sensitive of a PPID horse, so she has a point to question if the pergolide is the potency it's supposed to be.

I am not going to switch sources, but she's pushing it...

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Optimum times of year for testing

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Marianne and Jon -

Here is a link to a very nice study done in the UK at Liphook - shows seasonal ACTH of normal and PPID horses.(near the bottom of the list in the "ACTH testing and information" folder)

http://tinyurl.com/335t73

You can see that the normal horses will have lowish ACTH in November through February, with a couple of blips in the spring, then low in the summer. Normal seasonal rise is August through October, in these horses in the UK.

PPID horses, on the other hand, have only one low time of year, which appears to be in May. I suspect that early PPID (including those not yet diagnosed) will have a longer period of lowish ACTH, so it is possible to miss these horses if testing April through July. (no hard data - just extrapolation from what we already know)

There is a small study, somewhere, of ACTH levels in the southeastern US; I believe the ACTH trend is similar, but the levels are slightly "flatter" - less change in normal horses going in to the rise. Don't know what happens to horses in the tropics, where day length doesn't change. It is primarily the change in day length that drives these changes, but it is possible that temperature has an effect also. Dr. Kellon would know.

So - to find a baseline, test in May. To be sure of catching the early PPID horse, test in September. To monitor dosage, test any time, but particularly August/September, to make sure the ACTH is in the middle or low-normal range going into the seasonal rise.

A cold snap will cause a rise in insulin - not sure about an increase in ACTH.

HTH!

Jaini(BVSc)Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod

I would like to have a "baseline" on him (if that is even necessary) and then test before seasonal rise (in August)??
Am I on the right path for getting the best picture of his IR?
Thanks,

Marianne in Northern Illinois
Eddie, Scout, and Diesel too!
ECIR-Jan2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Marianne%20in%20Northern%20IL/

Weather / seasons spring to mind.  Is this because of a temperature height, a nearing of a change of seasons?  Is this uniform from the humid cool of northern Maine to the scorching of the southwest?  

The answer notes looking for a rise and worsening.  Does that presume an even situation the rest of the year?  Is there a best time to test for a "baseline" or the "lowest point"?

Thank you,

Jon
Texas '08


New Source for Pergolide Not 100% Successful

ianwiththrivingpets <ian@...>
 

Hello ECIR folks. I wanted to quickly post that the companies I am associated with- Todd's Pharmacy, Vet Pet Solutions, ThrivingPets- switched suppliers for Pergolide in December 2011 after much due diligence. Prior to shipping, the new source independently tested and I spoke with a number of pharmacies that have switched to the new source and had good results. This was the first time we switched sources for Pergolide in more than 3 years and I made the change only after doing all that I could to ensure a smooth transition.

Unfortunately, we have received 5 calls over the last 3 months from clients that have re-tested their horses and gotten worse results or clients that have re-tested when switching to a higher strength and gotten similar ACTH results rather than lower ACTH results. Although I am not sure whether the new source of Pergolide is a cause for the increased number of complaints, I have decided to discontinue using this source and switch back to the previous supplier effective immediately. For comparison, we received about 5 calls in 7 years questioning the efficacy of our Pergolide prior to the switch in December. I believe that the absorption of the new source of Pergolide may be different (because the testing came back saying the new source was the same US Pharmaceutical grade Pergolide Mesylate) than our previous source and this is accounting for the worsening results. We switched to 1/3 new, 2/3 old source for our compounded Pergolide at the beginning of February and will switch to 100% of the old source of Pergolide effective immediately.

I apologize for any adverse effects caused by the switch to the new source and wanted to make everyone aware of what was going on and the steps that we have taken to ensure that we continue to produce the highest quality Pergolide available.

Ian
Denver CO
02/2006


Re: WAS: Blood screen + further questions NOW: UPdated Cse History

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Marianne - Just looked at the latest pictures of Pauli; thank you for posting them!

Pauli has the typical crest of an out-of-control IR horse.

As a three year old, she was still too fat. People prefer the look of the "nicely rounded" horse, but it isn't all that good for the horse. You can tell yourself that those of her line don't have hollows over their eyes because that is their genetic nature; however, I would say they don't have hollows because they are too fat, and probably borderline IR even as youngsters.

Ditto the crest. You can tell yourself it is just her, but it is not normal. Not for any horse. Even the baroque breeds that are "cresty" have a crest that melds smoothly with the rest of their neck, not one that sticks up separately.

The eye? Well, her body is full of inflammation. That can't be helping her eye.

Her diet needs to be modified: low sugar hay (or soak the hay you have, for one hour in cold water, then drain where the horses can't get at it). Feed at 2% of her ideal body weight (which is about 75 kg less than it is now); or 1.5% of her current body weight, whichever amount is greater. Minerals balanced to her hay.

Do you know the normal values for the ACTH? It would be nice to be absolutely sure she is not also Cushings.

Jaini(BVSc)Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod


Marianne | The Netherlands | EC 2011
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Marianne/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/2102639087/pic/list?prop=eupdate


Re: Sugar's Blood Work

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Laura -

With an ACTH of 14.5 at this time of year (or any time, with a PPID horse - different for non-PPID), I would increase her pergolide. She is on one mg now? Go up to at least 1.5, but do it in .25 mg increments. As Lavinia says, be super tight with her diet.

Many Cushings horses don't have the long coat - that actually tends to be a late sign in the condition, but it is the one that everyone knows about! The ACTH tells the tale.

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod

I have a 13 year old Fjord horse mare who is perfect weight and does not have a long coat. She has been diagnosed with Cushing's by the vet. The only symptoms she has is reoccurring laminitis, fat pockets over her eyes, and warm feet.
ACTH result is 14.5 and her insulin is 270. She was not tested for anything else


Controlled cushings and laminitis

lynn.formica <lynn.formica@...>
 

My 22 QH has been cushionoid for about 7 years (diagnosed when he had multiple sinus infections), and his cushings has been well-controlled with pergolide ever since. I have him tested each spring. He has been non-symptomatic. However, he foundered 2 weeks ago - hind feet only. He was barefoot, the ground was hard (winter here), and he has a bad left knee so perhaps he was loading his hind legs more? He has some rotation behind - vet called it moderate. The vet thought bad trimming may wasn't doing him any favors - long toes. I had a new farrier out the next day and he didn't think the xrays looked too bad and suspected a mechanical contribution to his laminitis. He trimmed him but said his soles are very thin - not a candidate for shoes yet. After duct taping foam pads to his feet for over a week I got him Soft-Ride boots which he seems pretty comfortable in. He shows no signs of IR - no cresty neck, no fat deposits, not overweight, he doesn't gain weight easily, but I will get him tested anyway. I'm trying to understand what the trigger may have been. We tested his ACTH and it was normal, so the pergolide seems to be doing its job. Any ideas? I'm wondering if I need to eliminate grain from his diet if he is not IR? We've dropped the amount quite a bit already. He has allergies to soy, oats and barley, so it makes finding a feed difficult since most low carb/low sugar feeds have soy. Also wondering about glucosomine if he has cushings but not IR. Can cushings trigger laminitis even if its controlled? Could he have had a ACTH spike last fall/winter??


Re: For trimming help

layzdequineservices <layzd@...>
 

I don't think Rose was advocating the ABC group for diet advice. (Rose and I were both at OSNCH for the same session a few years ago) That is why I joind this group myself. I am dealing with more and more IR and Cushings horses and wanted more education those conditions. Yes, I can put a perfect trim on a foundered horse, but if I dont address the reason for the condition, the horse will not get better. This is where the EC group helps me get a handle on the condition. ABC is more focused on trim and hoof pathologies. But it is a good reference for those hard to read and distorted by disease or founder hooves. I have been both a student and an instructor at the Oregon School of Natural Hoof Care, affiliated with ABC Hoof Care. I don't think one group is better than the other, just different focus. Both groups offer good educational information.

BTW, there are no "Guru's" at ABC, just instructors and professional references.

Debora Lay
Montana 2012

--- In EquineCushings@..., "kathybrinkerhoff" <kathbrink@...> wrote:

Hi Rose,

I am, also, a member of ABC Hoof and I have never seen any diet recommendations by Cheryl. I traded an email with her last week regarding this topic when I had concerns regarding a poster who is recommending a diet protocol that is 180 degrees from what is recommended for an IR, PPID or compromised horse. Cheryl said she focuses on the hoof trimming posts and doesn't have time to read the nutrition posts.

I agree that Cheryl has put a lot of energy into helping horses with compromised hooves. I am familiar with her trimming gurus/teachers. I attended seminars by the same teachers. I, also, know that one needs to have strong education in hoof anatomy to understand when and when not to implement the hoof trimming suggestions on the ABC Board. Cheryl strongly recommends attending her trimming clinics to learn how to trim, hoof anatomy, practice on cadavers and to trim a live horse in a supervised environment under the guidance of a qualified instructor.

The case study you posted is incredible..you are a gifted trimmer. I would strongly suggest that you start by reading the nutrition advice here in the files and if you have the chance consider signing up for Dr. Kellon's NRC Plus Course. The information you can learn here will be a huge asset to your clients and more importantly to the horse.


Regards,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI 2007



Re: These are expensive. Are they worth it???

annettescherr@ymail.com
 

I just received the magnesium citrate powder from herbal com. I have no idea what the concentration is or if i can use it in place of magnesium oxide. I have a whole pound of it. Can somebody comment please. Thanks.
http://www.herbalcom.com/store.php3?list=cats&alpha=yes&lett=m-qM-Q


Re: Stopping Emergency Diet

Nancy C
 

Hi Laura

To be absolutely sure of my reply to you I need to see your Case History. I can't find it. It's why we ask folks to include the link when they have questions.

If you can save it as a .pdf or word doc, try uploading again, that might help.

I can give you a "probably" answer but I really don't want to do that.


Thanks for helping us help you.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lauramollrich" <lmollrich@...> wrote:


I did a private consultation with Dr.Kellon. Linda uploaded my case history but my computer keeps telling me it's not compatible so I can't open it. She says she can read it so I don't know what to do. Maybe I should try uploading it again? Also, I know it's not on this subject, but I need to send photos of his feet too.

Laura
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012


Re: new IR horse has arrived

Janet Citron <horselady9@...>
 

He is a very adorable rocky mountain gelding.
Soaking his hay feeding Purina wellness along with insulin IR in the am and freshly ground flax seed.
Is turned out on dirt.
Any other suggestions?

Janet from SE PA


Re: Diarrhea and Remission

Marianne Henze
 

Jaini,
Thanks very much. I have been reminded twice now about that darn calcium and keep forgetting. I get so tunnel-visioned about everything else - the right hay, exercise, getting his blood work done, are his feet cool. I will now be diligent about his minerals and get them balanced this week.
Thank you so much for your reply. I will certainly share if it makes a difference.

Marianne, who is slightly brain dead in Northern Illinois
Eddie, Scout, and Diesel too!
ECIR-Jan2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Marianne%20in%20Northern%20IL/

He is getting 30 grams of calcium; (just about 2X NRC for him)
Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod


Re: Need help with weight gain

pintogdss <leela@...>
 

I have been buying the Standlee Timothy pellets. There is Sugar/Starch analysis on their web site for some of their products. Here is the description and analysis for the Premium Timothy Pellets. It appears they changed the name and packaging very recently and are now called Certisure Premium Timothy Grass Pellets
http://www.standleehay.com/ViewProduct.aspx?type=of&id=cotgp

Description

Timothy Grass Hay Pellets have created a huge stir in most market places across the country. These pellets have been used in a wide variety of feeding regimens due to their consistent nature within the analyzed tested component elements. Timothy Grass Hay Pellets are low in sugar (8%) and low in non-structured carbohydrates (9%)

Analysis

Protein - Not Less Than 8%
Crude Fat - Not Less Than 1.8%
Crude Fiber - Not More Than 35%
Moisture - Not More Than 12%

Ingredients: Sun Cured Timothy Grass Hay Forages

Leela
Kindred Hill Farm, NH
Feb 2012


Hi Sue,
Trouble with the Standlee cubes and pellets is that there is no guarantee of the sugar/starch levels in each batch.


Re: Diarrhea and Remission

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Marianne -

Here is my take on Scout's hay, at 16 lbs daily:

He is getting 30 grams of calcium; (just about 2X NRC for him)

26.4 grams phosphorus

25.8 grams magnesium.

The ideal ratio for calcium:phosphorus is 1.5:1, or 2:1 (or somewhere in between) The current ratio is 1.1:1. In order to bring up the ratio, he needs 40 grams of calcium, total (40/26.4= 1.51)

Ditto for magnesium.

So, if you add 10 grams elemental calcium (= 26 grams of calcium carbonate), and stop the Remission, then his calcium:phosphorus:magnesium will be balanced.

So, yes, he is getting too much magnesium!

I appreciate your vet wanting to do the best for him, but what IR critters need is not life-long Remission, but rather life-long balanced minerals and low sugar hay.

I am dying to know if his diarrhea stops when you add the calcium and stop the Remission!

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod

My question is that Scout, who is recovered from his January laminitis episode, is still on Remission. Maybe, twice a week, he will have a REALLY loose poo.
The vet believes that he should be on Remission for the rest of his life - since he most likely is IR
Always a huge thanks!

Marianne in Northern Illinois
Eddie, Scout, and Diesel too!
ECIR-Jan2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Marianne%20in%20Northern%20IL/


Re: These are expensive. Are they worth it???

ferne fedeli
 

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:23 PM, palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...> wrote:
The Vit E many members use is human grade gel caps with soy oil.
www.swansons.com or www.putitanspride.com are 2 companies
Oops! Should be Puritans Pride. I have their website as www.puritan.com ...
They are the company I usually order my Vitamin E (400 IU in soy oil) from,
although sometimes Costco has Nature Made brand ones on sale and I get
them there... I get the Mag Ox 60% from Horsetech.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


Re: Sugar's Blood Work

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

I have a 13 year old Fjord horse mare who is perfect weight and does not have a long coat. She has been diagnosed with Cushing's by the vet. The only symptoms she has is reoccurring laminitis, fat pockets over her eyes, and warm feet.
ACTH result is 14.5 and her insulin is 270. She was not tested for anything else
Hi Laura,
Can't access the file in the link. By the bloodwork, Sugar is not Cushing's(PPID) but looks to be severely IR. What are the lab's units of measure for those results?
Hi Laura,
Just saw the Idexx Lab report. Sorry, I was using the wrong units of measure in my earlier response to you. Sugar IS positive for PPID/Cushings and also IR. She really should be started on pergolide to manage the PPID and her diet should be appropriate for an IR horse.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Diarrhea and Remission

Marianne Henze
 

I saw Jaini's response in post 164836 that:
If his hay has adequate, or more than adequate, magnesium, sometimes
magnesium (as in Remission) will cause diarrhea.

My question is that Scout, who is recovered from his January laminitis episode, is still on Remission. Maybe, twice a week, he will have a REALLY loose poo.
The vet believes that he should be on Remission for the rest of his life - since he most likely is IR (haven't done blood tests yet). I appreciate that she wants the best for Scout, but according to my hay analysis, he is getting 25.76 grams of Mg a day from his hay, but only needs 8.19 grams of Mg a day based on the NRC requirements.
What would be the group's thoughts on this?

Always a huge thanks!
Marianne in Northern Illinois
Eddie, Scout, and Diesel too!
ECIR-Jan2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Marianne%20in%20Northern%20IL/


Re: Need help with weight gain

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Here in Mich. we have access to Standlee products which includes low NSC timothy or a timothy/alfalfa combo pellets and cubes. I can try adding those to his bp.
Hi Sue,
Trouble with the Standlee cubes and pellets is that there is no guarantee of the sugar/starch levels in each batch. Plus, they would still need to be mineral balanced for each batch. All this is already done in the Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy Cubes. Alfalfa is not recommended for IR horses as it can cause problems for many of them.
Is your hay tested and mineral balanced? How much is he actually consuming? Salt being added?
Would you please delete most of the message(s) you are replying to, only leaving a sentence or two as needed for clarity. This helps enormously to those reading on digest and helps us volunteers to find and answer your most recent questions promptly.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI EC Support Team


Re: Optimum times of year for testing

Marianne Henze
 

I am wondering about this too. Scout's laminitis is cleared up, had his x-rays done, had him trimmed to lower heels and bring back toes (with follow up every two weeks), is doing wonderfully, but wondering about best time to do blood tests.
I would like to have a "baseline" on him (if that is even necessary) and then test before seasonal rise (in August)??
Am I on the right path for getting the best picture of his IR?
Thanks,

Marianne in Northern Illinois
Eddie, Scout, and Diesel too!
ECIR-Jan2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Marianne%20in%20Northern%20IL/

--- In EquineCushings@..., Jon Jon <pecanrancher@...> wrote:

Regarding Dr. Kellon's: Definitely late August or early September to see the magnitude of the ACTH rise and any worsening of IR. Use the second testing to either follow up on diet or pergolide dose changes, or for emergencies.

The following question:

Weather / seasons spring to mind.  Is this because of a temperature height, a nearing of a change of seasons?  Is this uniform from the humid cool of northern Maine to the scorching of the southwest?  

The answer notes looking for a rise and worsening.  Does that presume an even situation the rest of the year?  Is there a best time to test for a "baseline" or the "lowest point"?

Thank you,

Jon
Texas '08


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