Date   

Soreness in newly barefoot horse

 

Well, I got brave and pulled Shahtahr's shoes two days ago. Shahtahr foundered several months ago and has approx 5 degrees rotation in right front, and just very slightly in left front. I think he has had some ongoing laminitis since then too, as there are some rings in the hoof wall above where the bulge from rotation is.

He was actually never very lame - at most a grade 1 maybe when lunging circles. He has been in NB shoes with frog support pads, and had been since 2005.

We pulled his shoes on Tuesday. He was a little tender and walking a little gingerly, but honestly, he was moving around pretty darned well even on my concrete driveway and I thought I'd be able to get away without boots.

Well, as of today, he is dead lame on his right front. I have never seen him so lame. I know I need to get boots. But my question is - is this normal to have happen after a couple of day of doing pretty well after pulling shoes? Should I be panicking? Could the trim have set off another laminitis attack? It rained yesterday and all through the night, so his pasture is now all squishy mud. I would think that would make him less sore, but could it do the opposite?

His trim is apparently pretty good - someone from here (thank you!!!) has looked at pics and I'm waiting for final touchup recommendations, but she gave it a basic thumb's up.

I'm just so disappointed to see him get worse after two days instead of better...I'm very worried!

Jennifer & Shahtahr
Clovis, CA
2012


Repost request : Consult reuested for the experts High Insulin

Sandra Smith-Reynolds
 

Dr Kellon I am reposting this as I was told you were out of town at the time I originally posted. for reference my first post was # 166747 on April 6.
I have made a small change in her diet adding .75# Timothy hay pellets .25 beet pulp and .5 cup flax meal. I can't get the Triple crown pellets here in Oregon according to the feed stores so this is a local product that advertises as low starch but I couldn't get any other details. In any case she eats it so I can use it to bribe her to take a little beet pulp and flax.
Thank you for your help,
Sandi & Cassie Oregon 2007


Hi Dr Kellon,
We redrew the labs as you instructed under the same conditions.
Glucose is 99
Insulin 68.
GI ratio 1.46
on the last draw it was
Glucose 140
Insulin 40.7
GI ratio 3.45
What do you recommend?
This pony is at stable weight, active and cheerful, really doesn't drink much she is on soaked hay and drinks around 4 gallons/ day. She sweats appropriately after work. I would not suspect she was in trouble to look at her. the Cushings seems to be controlled. Her feet are cold with no pulses and she is shedding for the first time in years. Could the pergolide dose be to high? we moved her up in November from 1 mg to 1.5 mg/ day.

Thank you for your input.

Sandi & Cassie 2007
Oregon
this is the link to our history including her current diet.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sandi%22s%20ponies/


Under what circumstances in relationship to feeding should the insulin/glucose be redrawn?
Try to duplicate the same conditions as the last test.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Normal Fecal Egg Count-Still Need to Worm?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>
 

I have kept Pabatsa in a stable with turnouts in working arenas (sand) since he came into my life 7 years ago. He has always had a normal fecal egg count. I am trying to learn everything I can to keep Pabatsa alive and well--Cushing's and IR. Thanks to this group it is getting easier!

His Fecal Egg Count of 4/26/12 for Strongyle Ova/Parascaris Ova came back 0 units per gram. Do I still need to worm him? The last time I did was in September, 2011.

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20Mollrich/


Re: OK to Soak ODTB Cubes in Hot Water?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>
 

Hi LeeAnne,

Thanks for this bit of information. I have been putting tap water in a sauce pan and heating it up on the stove. I hope this meets with Dr. Kellon's approval.

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012

I think I remember Dr. K cautioning about using hot water from a hot water TANK. Something about added iron from the guts of the tank or the pipes. Can't remember for sure but to be safest, I use a kettle when heating water.
Would love to know if I can use tap and save time though.

-LeeAnne & Dawn, Newmarket, Ont PPID & IR 03/2004


Re: Good low s/s feed for older hard keeper?

 

Thanks for the suggestion Chanda!

Jennifer & Shahtahr
Clovis, CA
2012

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Chanda" <chandab@...> wrote:

Try the Triple Crown Senior, its lower in s/s than Purina. Purina is around 17% s/s, and TC senior is around 13%; the TC has about 1/3 less starch than the Purina. Personally, I'll take TC products over Purina any day. I know they cost more, but worth the expense.
Chanda
MT 9/04


Re: OK to Soak ODTB Cubes in Hot Water?

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

I think I remember Dr. K cautioning about using hot water from a hot water TANK. Something about added iron from the guts of the tank or the pipes. Can't remember for sure but to be safest, I use a kettle when heating water.
Would love to know if I can use tap and save time though.

-LeeAnne & Dawn, Newmarket, Ont PPID & IR 03/2004
Case History: http://tinyurl.com/yk7mvd6
Photos: http://tinyurl.com/6h64yh
All Season Muzzle Photos: http://tinyurl.com/55c52m
Hoof Pics: http://tinyurl.com/6qc79x6
Videos: http://tinyurl.com/5u2pdkv


Re: Good low s/s feed for older hard keeper?

Chanda
 

Try the Triple Crown Senior, its lower in s/s than Purina. Purina is around 17% s/s, and TC senior is around 13%; the TC has about 1/3 less starch than the Purina. Personally, I'll take TC products over Purina any day. I know they cost more, but worth the expense.
Chanda
MT 9/04

--- In EquineCushings@..., "luvmyapbt" <jlfleet@...> wrote:

Hi all,

In addition to Shahtahr, I also have a 22 yr old Arabian mare. She is the opposite of him in that she is a hard keeper. I don't think she is IR, but I don't want to invite any problems either >
Purina Equine Senior has helped keep her weight up these past few years, but I'm wondering if there is something better with less sugar and starch, but still enough calories to keep her weight up. > I have Shahtahr on TC Lite to carry his supplements, but I think she needs something more caloric? Any suggestions for something tasty that she'll eat? She LOVES the Equine Senior...

Thanks,
Jennifer & Shahtahr (and Mahriah)
Clovis, CA
2012


selenium

Lisa
 

I have been getting my selenium with my vitamin E. I have decided to change and have bought selenium and E gel pills instead. The selenium says 2000ppm/gram. Am I reading this right 2000ppm per gram of selenium. My horse need 1.5 milligrams Selenium. I am not quiet understanding the math for this one I was wondering if someone could help me with this. Thanks so much,

Lisa
Nov 2011
Vermont


Re: Safe to Muzzle?

skyappy95
 

Thankyou Kim,
That is what I am wondering about...
Some people post that they let their horses "graze" with the muzzle on & some say their horse can't even have one mouthful of any grass.

I guess maybe it is trial & error?
Or, thinking maybe only allow it in mornings & then not in Spring or Fall?

She gets alot more walking around when the muzzle is on & gets to go
see the nieghbor's horse.

I'll keep a close eye Kim! Thankyou. :-)
sky
oregon 2009
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/CopperTop-%20Oregon/


Good low s/s feed for older hard keeper?

 

Hi all,

In addition to Shahtahr, I also have a 22 yr old Arabian mare. She is the opposite of him in that she is a hard keeper. I don't think she is IR, but I don't want to invite any problems either and am now thinking that probably all horses should be on low s/s diets if they aren't in regular work. She is lame from a torn stifle ligament and is just a pasture potato. I don't want her to develop any metabolic issues in her old age if I can prevent it.

Purina Equine Senior has helped keep her weight up these past few years, but I'm wondering if there is something better with less sugar and starch, but still enough calories to keep her weight up. She gets all the timothy and/or orchard she wants (she just picks at it) and a flake of alfalfa per day which she hardly ever finishes (teeth have been checked and are fine).

I have Shahtahr on TC Lite to carry his supplements, but I think she needs something more caloric? Any suggestions for something tasty that she'll eat? She LOVES the Equine Senior...

Thanks,
Jennifer & Shahtahr (and Mahriah)
Clovis, CA
2012


Nutrena Empower Balance

michellelow22@rocketmail.com
 

Hi All,

Wondering if Nutrena Empower Balance is a safe feed for IR/Cushing's horses. Has any one used this? Our equine nutritionist recommended we try this for the protein value, but we're concerned about the sugar. The tag says starch is 8% and sugar is 6%, but not what type of starch and sugar.

Thanks for any help you can give us.

Michelle


Too Much Protein if Split Peas are Added?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,
You told me in a consultation that Pabatsa's hay has enough protein at 10.7%. I feed him around 24 lbs. total soaked Timothy hay/day. Would the additional split peas be adding too much? The bag they came in says there is 18% protein. Serving size is 3 tbsp.

It has been hard finding what Pabatsa will eat. I read where a lot of horses like split peas so I ordered some from Bulk Foods. I gave him 1/2 cup soaked in hot water, on top of his soaked ODTB cubes yesterday and he licked the bowl clean. I finally have found the right combination he likes!

(Bbty, I am feeding him 1/2 lb cubes per day in the evening. If he loses weight can I feed more cubes or would it not be safe?)

He is losing a little topline.

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012


Re: NUTRENA SPECIAL CARE

ymemags
 

Dr. Kellon,
       I am new to the group so if I ask questions that have been answered before please forgive me. What do you recommend as a "safe" level of starch/sugar in the feed and /or hay of an IR horse. My vet recommends less than 10% but you are saying even 8% is too much.
     Thank you
Judy

"Take Care Of Your Goodness"


________________________________
From: drkellon <drkellon@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:49 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: NUTRENA SPECIAL CARE


 
Here's another one, same group, that concluded 18% starch was appropriate for horses with metabolic issues because insulin and glucose responses were lower than with 28% starch:

http://www.crfarms.org/new_gfx/trials/Equine/E08%20UK25%20-%20CRF.jpg

However, lower does not mean low enough.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Help Please, I am New to Site- Have Laminitic Gelding

annettescherr@ymail.com
 

Hi Linda. I am relatively new to the group also, but I can tell you the information here has been the difference between life and death for my horse. DON'T WAIT TO GET A CORER TO HAVE THE HAY TESTED. Equine Analytical told me to just make sure I got a good sample. The test is only $25.00 (little more than the cost of a bag of ODTBC) and you get the results back within a week. I am now testing hay just for fun. I bought some timothy the other day and it was over 13% sugar/starch. My last load of Orchard Alfalfa was only 8% s/s. Orchard grass and Timothy grass are erroneously believed to be safe to feed and alfalfa is villainized. In reality, they are too rich for most IR horses. You can't tell from looking or smelling a hay how much sugar it has. Although I noticed the meadow grass I just bought smelled sweet. The test results should be interesting because the supplier told me he sold the hay to UC Davis in California specifically to feed to their IR horses. I also watch to see how my horse feet respond to the hay. His feet tell me if the s/s is to high because he will get soreness or inflammation or both. There is a direct correlation between high insulin levels and inflammation. I don't know how to describe it inexact biochemical pathway terms but I am sure Dr. Kellon can! My horse Sparky went from grade 4 lameness to grade 1 or 2 and is almost ride-able. Some days are better than others. He goes up and down but the general direction is up!

Annette Scherr & Sparky(IR not PPID) Mustang
Member since Jan 2011
Southern California
ascherr@...
annettescherr@...
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Sparky/
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjvUiGq3


Re: Salt and flax amounts for pony

Mandy Woods
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chanda" <chandab@...>
To: <EquineCushings@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:59 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Salt and flax amounts for pony


While not on the emergency diet, my 350# Cushings gelding gets 1 tsp salt, and 3/4 ounce of flax (I think its around 3 tablespoons - he's getting Omega Horseshine in his SmartPaks at .75 scoop dose, so should be 3/4 ounce). [My normal minis gets 1 tablespoon to 3 tablespoons flax, depending on their needs; the ones on just a tablespoon could probably use a little more, but its ok for now; and those on 3 tablespoons it seems to be about right.]
Chanda
MT 9/04

--- In EquineCushings@..., Teri Riley <teririley@...> wrote:

Can someone tell me how much salt and flax to give a 300 lb pony on the emergency diet? � I've been guessing and giving her 1/2 tsp. salt and 2 tsp. flax (before grinding) am and pm on her BP.

Teri

Indiana
4-2012�








------------------------------------

***PLEASE BE SURE TO REMOVE UNNECESSARY DUPLICATED MATERIAL FROM THE MESSAGE YOU ARE REPLYING TO BEFORE YOU HIT SEND -- ONLY LEAVE ENOUGH SO YOUR REPLY IS UNDERSTOOD***

Shortcut URL to this page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/messages/?expand=1

All posts copyrighted the year posted, all rights reserved to the author of the post and list owner. Posts may NOT be copied or intellectual property used elsewhere without written permission of the author and/or list owner.

Post message: EquineCushings@...
Subscribe: EquineCushings-subscribe@...
Unsubscribe: EquineCushings-unsubscribe@...
List owner: EquineCushings-owner@...

Off Topic but horse discussion list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHorsekeeping/
Hoof related sister list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/
Case History list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: help with new blood work

millionairess1989
 

Hi Lavinia,

ACTH is still quite high given this is the time of year when it should be at it's lowest so definitely need to up the pergolide dose. What form (liquid/powder/caps/tablet) is your perg?
They are capsules from Thriving Pets.

Jennifer & Mill in TN
Jan 2011


Re: help with new blood work

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Just got back the results on Mill's latest blood work from Cornell. I am not sure where to go from here. I will get this to her file later today. She has been on 1.5mg of Pergolide.
ACTH 68.1 (9-35)
Glucose 91 (71-113)
Insulin 37 (10-40)
Leptin 4.339 (1-4)
http:/pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Millionairess
Hi Jennifer,
ACTH is still quite high given this is the time of year when it should be at it's lowest so definitely need to up the pergolide dose. What form (liquid/powder/caps/tablet) is your perg?
Insulin and glucose certainly not outrageius but definitely IR. Could be due at least in part to PPID not being well controlled.

Lavinia, Dante, Georeg Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Help Please, I am New to Site- Have Laminitic Gelding

Mandy Woods
 

Ok,
Where were we?
Linda!
I cannot explain why some barn owners and vets are threatened by their lack of knowledge about IR. Believe me just about half the list members have gone through this! The ego is fragile so you must find a way either by humor or begging them to help you! I have changed vets numerous times. Some of them have now gotten ''in to'' IR. Farriers are just as bad if not worse! You will probably learn how to trim yourself. My only suggestion is to be diplomatic (not my strong suit!) because you dont want to burn any bridges. Show them the science we use, ask to test the hay and show the barn owner the analysis, so he sees exactly what he's feeding. You may end up changing barns, vets and farriers. Its done all the time. You should talk to Mr. Frizzer's people!

On feeding Triple Crown Lite. We dont recommend a large serving of it. Its very condensed minerally. It would be better if you switched to ODTB cubes exclusively especially if you cant soak untested hay. If you can affort this product - its $20 a bag in VA and that would probably last you 3 days - its easy to feed. Just get a kitchen counter scale and measure out 5#s into an individual bag or container. See if you can get a barn person to drop feed in his stall or drylot 3 times a day. Then when you visit in the evening you could take him a presoaked flake of hay from home. Some boarders rent a space at their barn to store their specially bought hay, or keep it at home and hand deliver each day. I carried 5 bales of my low s/s hay to the barn I boarded at with the minerals premixed and put in sandwich baggies to feed my mare for a month. Point is ~ it can be done if you get creative. You may have to 'tip' the barn help!

Do what you can. You are just one person. I'm going to send the IR calculator so you can plug in your numbers. Go ahead and show it to your vet! Did you find the VPI proxie papers that Dr. K mentioned? Thats the place to start.

Dont feel bad about not riding Roo. You can continue his training by hand walking all over Alabama! Teach him to back, disengage both front and back end and in general send him to cowboy school! You can have as much fun on the ground as onboard. Its the quality of time you spend........ And DO NOT beat yourself up. How were you to know?

Linda, you have joined a very exclusive group of equestrians so open your self up to the new way of horse management! People will be calling you asking YOU for help! So be strong!

http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003

ps: please delete all previous posts that you respond to. Also, sign your name, state, date of joining and always include the link to Roos Case History. Cut and paste everything to an email to yourself to use.


Re: help with new blood work

millionairess1989
 

Hi Dr Kellon,
I know and that has me worried. She has been on 1.5mg since probably January, down from 2mg during the fall. What sort of dosing protocol should we try? This is really a surprise since she looks great, shed out better than she has in years and is even showing dapples in her coat.
Jennifer & Mill in TN
Jan 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "drkellon" <drkellon@...> wrote:

You need to talk with your vet about adjusting pergolide dose to get better control. This is the best time of year for PPID horses but the highest ACTH you have on record.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: help with new blood work

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You need to talk with your vet about adjusting pergolide dose to get better control. This is the best time of year for PPID horses but the highest ACTH you have on record.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

116641 - 116660 of 280098