tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>

ECIR Files Table of Contents:

To help members quickly find information in the files, the ECIR Group has posted a search-and-click Table of Contents (TOC) at, or near, the top of each of the Files sections in the ECIR groups.

The TOC is a listing of all documents in the all ECIR Groups so contents of folders can be viewed without you having to open folders. It is up-dated at least monthly. Case Histories, Hay Analysis, Member Work Sheets and Photos excluded.

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File inquiries, comments, suggestions and reports of broken links or missing documents can be sent to LeeAnne at ThePitchforkPrincess <at> gmail <dot> com or posted in the ECIR Group.

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Thank you for your cooperation.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists

mixing supplements


I currently measure/weigh and mix these ingredients into my morning buckets, over wet ODTB's, and into plastic containers to mix into the evening feeding:

mixture #1(Chancey--IR, hay only diet)

HT Phos 4
Mag Ox
Ca trace
a LITTLE extra Cu and Zn to balance my hay
ground stabilized flax seed
Acetly L-carnitine

mixture #2 (Spiral--non IR/PPID, but respiratory allergies, hay and pasture diet)

Ca trace
Diamond VXP yeast
ground stabilized flax seed

Their salt and Vit E are added to the bucket before I add the warm water to the ODTB's. Does anyone see a reason why I couldn't mix a weeks worth of these 2 mixes, separately, for my horse sitter when I go away for a week this summer? I'm afraid asking her to measure out all the ingredients on the gram scale might be a litte intimidating :). Thanks so much!!

Maggie and Chancey in VA
March 2011

Soft hoofs and biotin


Since being very ill this winter (some of you may remember the horrible abscess caused by tetanus vaccination) my horse's hoofs have been very soft and his walls are split and thin. While not being born with mustang hoofs (he is a TB/WB), they have never been this bad.

Need to buy him some biotin. Is there a particular form of biotin that is better? Should it be combined with anything else for maximum effect?
How much will a 670 kg horse need?

Do you know of any good topical products that make the hoof harder?

He is of course on a mineral balanced diet.


March 2011

Re: Anhidrosis


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Brent" <barrettdvm@...> wrote:

Has anyone actually fixed their horse's anhidrosis with balancing the diet or meds or supplements?

Hi Tracy,
I don't know if I have anything great to add, but Beau's anhidrosis seems better this year and we're in the middle of a string of blistering hot, humid days and nights. What is different this year? I started his OneAc earlier this year to get it on board ahead of time, he's getting some of Chappie's APF,and except for 1 1/2 hr grazing in the morn he is on the IR diet with Chappie, and they are both losing weight nicely. He gets his usual servings of iodized salt am & pm along with a small white block in a nice smooth Safe-T Salt holder, I added a small helping of Source to be sure his iodine was OK. At the start of this heat he got several servings of his Guinness, and of course I have the fans set up. He and Chappie both just seem more comfortable this year, so maybe the low s/s diet and supps., the resulting weight loss and the APF are helping them deal with the heat.( It's early days tho, so I'll see how he's doing as the heat settles in.) The next thing I'm going to buy are the fans with the little misting rings, they're supposed to cool things down nicely.Good luck with your boy.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau

Re: NOW: Strategy for Barn Change (OLD Help Have Lamini Gelding)


--- In EquineCushings@..., LINDA HOUSE <roodle20@...> wrote:
I picked the barn with drylot where I could control the hay and have witnessed a miracle..

3) Does everyone agree at least 6 months  from end of laminitis  to ride the recovered horse?

Hi Linda,
What a wonderful new start for Roo and you! He's beautiful in the video. I don't know enough to comment on his crest, but wanted you to know that I also had some bad advice at the beginning of Chappie's and my journey but we made it thru. You have Roo in a good place now. It's been a year since Chappie's founder and I am just now starting to do little rides. I wanted to give the hoof time to "grow out" (Part of the bad advice was a vet saying" Ride that boy, get him moving again" well,once he was feeling better, I sat on him a little, but didn't feel it was the right thing and quit riding for the year. I just did the hand walking. (I had to get my hip fixed anyway, so we healed together).
I don't have any experience with the Work 4 Feeder,but it looks interesting.( Chappie has a Nibble Net, but 24/7 hay, even in Nibble Nets would be too much for him. But I'm at home now so can give him hay meals thruout the day.) Good luck with Roo.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau

Re: NOW: Strategy for Barn Change (OLD Help Have Lamini Gelding)


Thnak you Lorna and the other wonderful responder (whose message I now cannot find) for giving me the courage to do the right thing ! Also Dr K for checking out my new hay!
I picked the barn with drylot  where I could control the hay and I have witnessed a miracle.   2 days prior to move, I cried because he could hardly walk at all. Had had moderate pulses and warmth in feet on/off for weeks.   I put him in his stall for the 24 hours before I could move him across the street and around corner to new barn. 
 Assumed I'd have to trailer him but with double padded boots I walked him because within 24 hours of zero grass, his feet were cool and no pulses.  I just don't know what to say.  I could rant about the incompetent vet who pushed him back to pasture in May. ( or at myself because Dr.K told me in first post not to put him back so soon)   Or I think I just need to be grateful for the wonderful new barn owner who tilled up a paddock and removed the grass for me.  He even fills my slowfeed haynets. Amazing. 
 I have posted a video of Roo on YouTube as he is put into his new dry paddock. He has Boa boots with double soft pads..he is feeling so much better from just 24 hours in old stall.  Can any of you look at him and tell me what you see as far as neck crest...the vet says it is nothing...just his conformation. Also, he had a weirdly  long coat in winter, though it did shed out. ACTH was 17.6 in April but I am concerned nonetheless.....he was NQR all winter with the bizarre coat and periods of lethargy.  Then Spring laminitis.    Could  PPID be in early stages?
1)  We just completed 3 weeks at new barn.  Is it too soon to retest Ins/Glucose?   Should the Insulin be back to normal already 
2) Has anyone tried buying a used centrifuge & pulling/spinning blood samples themselves?    I believe Cornell will accept the blood from owners.  Am I crazy to try?
3) Does everyone agree at least 6 months  from end of laminitis  to ride the recovered horse?
4)Has anyone used the "Work 4 Feeder" to slow feed their hay?  (Does this need to posted to EC Horsekeeping"?)
God bless to all of the angels of mercy on this site,
Linda for Roo
Alabama April 2012


From: Lorna <briars@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 8:39 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: NOW: Strategy for Barn Change (OLD Help Have Lamini Gelding)


Have located 2 new barns and ready to move him within days but REQUEST ADVICE:
A friend of mine running a boarding stable here was amazed when he finally decided to convert his round bale feeders into slow feeders!
He was so pleased with the savings in money and labour.
And his boarders took to the idea well.Instead of thinking he was starving their horses,they loved the way the fat ones lost pounds and the thin ones regained what they needed.

Just a thought.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*


Heike Bean

One of my horses had anhydrosis about 5 or 6 years ago. This was before the
mineral balancing. He never used the salt block and I never fed salt with
his food. I think this was the reason that he became anhidrotic.

Over the last few years, after putting him on the balanced minerals and
adding salt to his food, his sweating pattern and endurance have
continuously improved. Today I consider him totally normal.



Heike Bean


Tapering metformin?


Just wondering if it's necessary to taper down when stopping metformin? Thanks,
Alison/Diesel 08/11
Parker, TX

Re: Anhidrosis


Hi Tracey,
It's been a year to the day since Diesel crashed big time with full-on laminitis from unrecognized ir and what also turned out to be PPID. He stopped sweating last summer and it was a nightmare, but happily, after getting things under control w/ddt, he is sweating normally so far this season. I do give him 1AC (which he also got last year to no avail) but I believe it is because his condition is managed now w/diet and .95 pergo. We are in TX, where we have already had several days over 100 (although it's better than last year at this time!), and we haven't seen below 70 at night for a month.
Best of luck with your guy.
Alison/Diesel 08/11
Parker, TX

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Brent" <barrettdvm@...> wrote:

Has anyone actually fixed their horse's anhidrosis with balancing the diet or meds or supplements?
Tracey and Chance, Ocala FL, Jan 2010

Re: Anhidrosis

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>

Hi, Tracy -

The only thing I found that you might not have tried is APF, or APF Pro (message number 155908). I think you said over on EC Horsekeeping that Alcar didn't help, and neither did beer?

Pat Land over on EC Horsekeeping suggested 12 ounces of beer (she used Milwaukee Lite) twice a day for three days.

I would try the APF Pro.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
EC support

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Brent" <barrettdvm@...> wrote:

Has anyone actually fixed their horse's anhidrosis with balancing the diet or meds or supplements?

Tracey and Chance, Ocala FL, Jan 2010



Has anyone actually fixed their horse's anhidrosis with balancing the diet or meds or supplements? I know most will sweat normally when the temperature goes down below 70 at night. I have tried most of the products they sell and he is on a balanced diet and gets lots of salt and electrolytes.I live in Florida where every farm has pasture turnout. My last effort may be to create a dry lot to keep my nonIR/Cushings horse off the grass but I may have to buy a farm to do it. I just want to know if anyone has had anything work cause I will try it. I am doing more bloodwork now that the heat is here to see if anything has changed. Please help.

Tracey and Chance, Ocala FL, Jan 2010

Re: IR Pellet from KER

Linda <PapBallou@...>

What do you guys think about this product?

Michelle -

It's OK as far as supplements go. There is nothing special about it other than they have added the initials IR to it.

Of concern -

- the magnesium is not even a gram. Many hays are deficient in Mg with large numbers of grams needed to achieve a balance. Even our emergency diet suggests a minimum of 3 grams.

- added iron. There is too much iron in the typical equine diet.

- biotin - you need about 20mg to be effective. This provides 0.5 mg

- vitamin E - it is in dry form, so not as readily available as vit E in oil. Should be 2000 iu for an IR/PPID or older horse.

- iodine - you need at least double what it provides

- calcium and phosphorus - don't know why they added either, and in such low amounts. At least they are in a decent balance to each other.

You'd be better off simply balancing your own hay, or getting a supplement that provides you with approprate amounts of needed ingredients.

You end up paying for things you don't need, or things that are really a drop in the bucket as far as what is effective.

I have no connection with either, but California Trace and Arizona Regional Mix, while named for specific regions, are both reasonable fits for a balanced diet until you can do your own.

EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

Re: IR "clue"?

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>

Melinda, this is anecdotal information, that has surfaced because there are so many people on this list who are willing to give time and effort towards reporting their horses responses, and including their horses information in the Pergolide Database and so on. Even after more than 10 years, vets are still discouraging testing during the seasonal rise, and using the dex suppression test, and refusing to prescribe more than 1 mg pergolide. There is still a ton of information to be learned about PPID in horses; there is still a ton of information to be teased out about pergolide dosing rates and timing.

The files are updated by volunteers when new information is confirmed (as in the new information about Leptin testing) It is unlikely that
anecdotal reports of PPID symptoms with normal ACTH will be found in the files any time soon because there are no real data to back it up.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
EC support

Jaini, I would be very happy to know that when the next "Cato" comes along the information that it is possible that PPID is uncontrolled even with normal ACTH is available to his owner. Preferably before he has suffered for months, and without the owner having to ferret it out from archived posts (which IMHO requires unlimited time, prior knowledge, and/or a psychic gift.) If it is available now anywhere in the files, please direct me to it!
Thank you all again.
Melinda and Cato
August 2010

IR Pellet from KER

mpw709 <sophie@...>

What do you guys think about this product?

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Joined 6/12
Lexington, KY USA

Re: Repost: Prairie Diagnostic Lab,Saskatoon for ACTH? Titers, & lab questions


Hi Linda,

If you enter ACTH in the search box at the link in Lorna's message below, you will see ACTH – chemiluminescence , Code acth, Lab C which is the test done in-house at the Guelph Lab.

Also listed is ACTH, endogenous – RIA, external, Code Xacthe, Lab X, which is usually sent to Michigan State University for testing there.

I have just confirmed this information yesterday by calling the Guelph Lab. You must specify the correct code to get the test you want.

You need to confirm with your Saskatoon Lab where they are sending the ACTH samples, since their test guide does not specify. Are they sending ALL samples for ACTH to Guelph, (and then Guelph forwards the samples again to MSU if you want the RIA test), or are they sending any samples for RIA testing directly to the lab (which one?) that will actually perform the test.

If the samples are being redirected a second time, there is the possibility of the sample thawing in transit and the results may not be accurate, (especially given the high temperatures we are having right now).

The chemiluminescence test is different for the RIA test, but I do not have the knowledge if one is "better" than the other.

For anyone interested, Guelph's cost to veterinarians for the MSU test is $81.50 CND. … Plus HST ($28.25 for the test, $9.25 handling, $44.00 shipping. If multiple tests (e.g. samples from 2+ horses) ordered, there is only one handling and one shipping fee charged). (Note, horse owner's will have to pay additional fees for vet time, etc. Guelph will only accept samples from and communicate results to veterinarians.)

Also very interesting, is that if anyone wants a sample forwarded on to Cornell for testing there, this IS possible. On the Guelph submission form, just write that in the History section, and do not tick the usual test boxes listed.

Eva and Mel,
SW Ontario, 2005

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:

Hi Linda,

In our Canada Sources File you will find more information,but here is a link to AHL,in Guelp, wrt ACTH:

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*


tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>

Your horse's Case History is the most important step to be completed upon joining the Equine Cushings List. A well filled out and up-to-date Case History is critical for obtaining timely and relevant advice from the volunteers.

Provide as much information as possible. There are sections to enter data on physical symptoms, diet, exercise, blood tests, owner observations, past veterinary care or anything that you feel may be relevant to your horse's condition.

Please use standard units of measurement. To ensure the usefulness of your blood work results, be sure to include the type of units used by the lab and the lab's normal ranges. This will not only help the volunteers to help your horse, but will provide scientific data to help the ECIR group gain the trust of science-based equine professionals and shape future protocols.

Don't delay posting your case history if you are missing some pieces, it can be updated when you have the information you are still gathering. However, the faster your case history is up and completed, the faster you will receive support from the List Greeters, Volunteers or Dr. Kellon.

Don't be afraid to link to additional information about your horse. Links that take volunteers to photos, x-rays, specific messages in the ECIR groups or other sources of information can help support staff better understand your horse's situation.

When posting questions in the group make sure you include a link to the folder that contains your case history so volunteers can find your information quickly and easily.

When the time comes that you or your horse no longer needs the ECIR List's advice, as a gesture of “giving back� to the group please leave your Case History, photos, x-rays etc. for the group to access. Your horse's information can be used to provide answers to future questions and help other horses. Additionally please fill out any of the polls or database tables that apply to you.

Instructions for posting Case Histories can be found here:

Templates can be found here

New Case Histories should be posted in ECHistory5

An example of how to fill out a case history is here:

Thank you for Thank you for your cooperation.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists

Re: Testing procedure for IR: to eat or not to eat

Nancy C

Hi Marianne

Besides Lorna's suggestions, Liphook Equine recognizes the potential of stress influencing insulin in a fasting the horse and recommends that "low quality hay" be given to the horse.

i. Resting hyperinsulinaemia
High serum insulin in a single blood sample is strongly suggestive of IR as long as potential confounding factors such as pain, stress and recent feeding are controlled. Standardisation of sampling is desirable to minimse the effects of these factors although protocols and reference ranges are still poorly defined. Grazing certainly has a marked hyperinsulinaemic effect and even some hays can do the same. On the other hand the stress of fasting could have a hyperinsulinaemic effect in some individuals. Nevertheless it is preferable to standardise the sampling protocol by fasting for 6 hours. In occasional cases where the fasting procedure causes obvious distress then poor quality hay (perhaps soaked to reduce soluble carbohydrates) can be offered. IR is likely when fasted serum insulin is >20mIU/L (or >30 mIU/L on hay) using data derived at The Liphook Equine Hospital Laboratory (NB low fasted insulin values do not rule out IR – see below). Evidence suggests that different methodology and analysers in different laboratories may produce significantly different results so it is vital that laboratories accurately determine their own acceptable reference ranges. <<

You can find more info on their web site.


Over the course of many, many years of testing, the only time my horse tested as *not* IR was on a fasted sample.

Agree the simplest way is to just have the horse on low ESC&Starch hay
throughout the night/morning prior to blood draw.

Tons of discussion in the archives.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003


--- In EquineCushings@..., Jannepauli <jannepauli@...> wrote:

Every now and then we bump into vets who are totally convinced that a horse should not eat prior to blood taking for IR.

Re: Testing procedure for IR: to eat or not to eat

Lorna <briars@...>

Marianne,the instructions are in the Files,and also in a lot of archived messages if you use the Search Box.
The web site also provides this information

However,with a vet such as you describe most members find the best thing to do is proceed as this group advises,and ahem embellish the truth a bit if asked if the horse were fasted.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

I would have fwd him to Dr Kellon's site but reading through quickly, I did not find the testing instructions there.

Testing procedure for IR: to eat or not to eat

Marianne Herzberger

Every now and then we bump into vets who are totally convinced that a horse should not eat prior to blood taking for IR.. sigh.. well most of us have become quite good at telling a little-white-lie. Someone I know had her horse tested for IR and was told to withhold food for 12 (!!) hours - you can guess the outcome "not IR" and money lost. The horse is a perfect IR candidate, even her vet thought so.
Anyway, I ve done my best explaining that fasting is not the way to go and now her vet 'demands' scientific evedence that the horse should not be fasted ( except sweetfeeds etc). Would anyone have a link (PubVet??) to information written by his peers?
Telling this guy about our EC|IR and the evidence we have found.. is no good, the man is quite arrogant and thinks that anything from the web is unprofessional and nonsense.
I would have fwd him to Dr Kellon's site but reading through quickly, I did not find the testing instructions there.
Who can help?

Marianne ( *Jannepauli*)
EC June, 2011 -
The Netherlands

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Emergency Diet questions

palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...>

Hi Karen,

Your remaining unanswered question, I am assuming is in regard to pergolide or Prascend dosage increase.

If this is correct on my part, the answer is :For unknown reasons, some horses do better on one larger dose of pergolide daily,
rather than two smaller ones, even though the total amount might be the same.

EC Primary Response
San Diego 1.07

One other thing re medication dosing. I presently feed 0.5mg which is half of a 1mg tablet. If/when I increase dosage from 0.5mg to 1mg should I feed 0.5mg morning and night or is it more benficial to feed 1 x 1mg dose?

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