Date   

Re: Equimins Advance Concentrate Meta Balance Formula 1 or 2?

capnmrgn2000 <capnmrgn2000@...>
 

thank you Lavinia - I want to be prepared as last year he did get quite skinny do I just wanted to make sure I knew what to do of I needed to.

Sarah and Shesky, UK
Hi Sarah,
Sounds like you are on the right track!
Just a quick reminder to trim your posts (delete all or most of the post you're responding to) and to also add your date of joining the list to your signature - Thanks so much!
CHeryl and Ollie in MA
Jan. 2004
EC list support


Re: new to this site ,need advice on supplements for my mare with IR

palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...>
 

Hi Renee,

Welcome to the group. So many of us have been in your place- with confusing information as well as misinformation. The list philosophy is DDT/E.

Now get comfy........:-D

DIAGNOSIS by bloodwork. This includes non-fasting glucose/insulin and leptin blood draw at least 3-4 hrs after a morning meal of hay only. Was your girl diagnosed IR through bloodwork? If so, please post the tests, lab results/labs norms and units of measurement.

DIET: low sugar/starch/fat hay with minerals balanced to it
The Temporary Emergency Diet should be started now. The Temporary Emergency DIET is in the Start Here File.

First, if she is on pasture, take her off. NOW. Grass is high in sugar. Stressed grass is higher in sugar. You need to feed her 2% of her body weight a day in dry hay . You can feed this amount in 3-4 small meals a day. Put in small hole hay nets, soak in cold water for 1 hr and drain the water where the horses can not get to it. Soaking the hay can reduce the sugar up to 30% which could be critical for her. Feeding in hay nets will better satisfy the ravenous appetite of IR horses.

Next step will be to core the hay and send to Equi-Analytical and have it tested and major and trace minerals are balanced to the hays excesses and deficiencies. You will then have a custom made diet just for her. This plays a HUGE role in diet management for an IR horse. Let us know when you are ready to do this and we can help.

Stop feeding:

Any grains, bagged feed, commercial supplements and treats,apples carrots, salt/mineral blocks etc. The ER Diet is soaked hay with Vitamin E, loose iodized table salt, magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed. You can purchase all of those minerals at Walmart! You can also purchase a hanging fish scale to weigh the hay, if you need a scale.

You can use a pound or more of rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp(R/S/R BP) as a carrier for the emergency minerals.

TRIM is a balanced foot with a trim that aligns to the coffin bone.
You can use boots/pads if she's foot sore.

Xrays: Please post the xrays in your history file....this is your file for lab results/hay analysis and xrays. Please go here and join:

http://pets/groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6

EXERCISE only if she's able. Never force a laminitic horse to move.
Handwalking is great even for 5 minutes a day. Let her have room to move but you do not want her ripping around right now being foot sore.

Is she on pain meds? If yes, please tell us which one/dose and how long she has been on pain meds. Prolonged use of NSAID's can prevent healing and there is always the potential of ulcers.

Please take some time to inhale deeply and relax! Tell
us where you live as there may be a member close by that can help with sourcing supplies.

Start reading the Start Here File and ask questions as they come up. We will help you on this journey. It can be quite overwhelming in the beginning and as our members have been down this road, we can help ease the steep learning curve of proper IR management.

As far as L Carnitine, Biotin, etc- let's get the Emergency Diet in place, fill out a case history, post the xrays, breathe and we will tackle all of this with you and your girl.

Again welcome!

Susan
EC Primary Response
San Diego 1.07





----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

I just found this site and am I ever grateful!! my horse is a Missouri Fox Trotter,newly diagnosed with Insulin Resistence.......
I have made some dietary changes that her vet reommended,however ,all the researh I`ve done is confusing me as to what supplements she should be on........

her feet do seem tender ,x rays were done ,no sign of laminitis ,but the vet said it is very possible for her to have sore feet anyway with Insulin Resistence............

I heard L Carnitine is good for horses with tender feet ,also biotin supplements ,as well as magnesium supplements........

can someone share what has been successful with their horse with IR??

Most Grateful,

Renee


Re: Help please: Need to justify high pergolide dose to vet

aliby100
 

I sent an apology to Lisanne; Just wanted to say that I didn't mean to be thoughtless and hijack her post. I know how frustrating it can be when you are just trying to get answers so apologies to all. Sometimes in the heat of the battle I forget stuff.
Alison/Diesel 08/11
Parker, TX


Re: Sonny hay

Deb Barnes
 

You only need to add copper and zinc if you drop the IH.
Right on the biotin and methionine if you keep the IH.

See? Easy.
Easy for you! No, I think I've got it. Since I just got a new batch of IntegriHoof today, I think I'll stick to IH for 1/2 dose once I get the biotin and methionine. I'll add the Phos and adjust the Mag ox and all should be well. Right?

Deb & Sonny
2010, PA
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Deb%20B%20in%20PA/


Re: Help please: Need to justify high pergolide dose to vet

aliby100
 

Yes, thank you, Andrea (again!). Diesel is IR/PPID and on Metformin (as well as pergolide), and hasn't been doing very well since his last chemo for SCC in early June. I am busy in the trenches with him and so haven't had time to keep up with the group like I was, but try to scan the posts in hope of finding something to help him. That's how I realized that my vet's RX for Metformin was only 1/2 the recommended amount, and so was wondering if recommendations had increased.
Diesel hates the Metformin anyway. Has anyone else had adverse reactions/effects from using it? He is a super trooper, but when he sees the dose syringe with the Metformin he does what he can to get away and it is breaking my heart. I know it causes stomach upset in some human patients. I have been trying to justify it because of purported cancer-fighting properties, (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22847511), but that is getting more and more difficult.
We are having a hard time, and I am in despair.
Alison/Diesel 08/11
Parker, TX
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Alison%3B%20Parker%2C%20TX/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "andrealefley" <androbjon@...> wrote:

Just to clarify, this is for metformin (for insulin resistance), not pergolide (for PPID).


Re: lost blood samples

millionairess1989
 

Thanks, Lavinia. Fortunately the samples arrived at Cornell which I found out when the prelim glucose results were faxed. The USPS server was down so their tracking showed nothing since last night which is what got me worried.

Since I borrow the centrifuge from the animal hospital at which I work and my friend/co-worker who is a vet tech does the blood draw, the only real expense for me is the testing and shipping. Repeating it all would just be a matter of time and coordination. But we are all glad not to have to, especially Mill.

Jennifer & Mill in TN


Re: Grade 1 Laminitis?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "drkellon" <drkellon@...> wrote:

Hi Dr. Kellon,

From what you are seeing on these x-rays, should I be changing Pabatsa's diet?

I am concerned about the inflammation you say is there. My shoer says to me Pabatsa has laminitis because of the way his feet look at the stretched white line (which looks decayed) and because of the rings on all 4's. I am wondering if I should be expecting an abscess? When I can get him out again (he lives over 1 hr. away) I will take photos.

I was told this can be infectious arthritis? If so could can a farrier cause it by driving in a nail?

Can Pabatsa's LF broken back axis be fixed because it's the low heel part of his low/high conformation?

Also, can you tell me which feet your are describing for the ringbone, widened joint space, lamellar zone, and sinking? Is the zero palmar angle and broken back pastern axis something a shoer can cause in the way they trimmed the foot? If so I am going to keep looking for a qualified person that can shoe him. Can it be fixed?

Just how serious is all of this for Pabatsa? I am having a nervous breakdown over all of this. As Lorna says, "Take a deep breath."

By the way, I posted this on this group when the site was down because I was told this would be answered here. Should I move this over to ECHoof?

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012


There's no change in the coffin bones. He has active ringbone, widened coffin joint space likely from inflammation and increased joint fluid. There is sinking but it hasn't changed in years. The horn lamellar zone is wider than normal for a thoroughbred but probably not for a warmblood. He has zero palmar angle and on the left his hoof pastern axis is broken back.
Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Jiao Gu Lan etc

danissyo
 

My miniature pony isn't recovering fully from a bout of founder despite correct diet and management.

Carol Layton advised Acetyl Carnitine, AAKG and Jiaojulan and said I should join this group and ask for dosages.

The pony would weigh less than 150kg.

Help please.

Helen


Re: new to this site ,need advice on supplements for my mare with IR

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "kitty_catlady59" <kitty_catlady59@...> wrote:

I just found this site and am I ever grateful!! my horse is a Missouri Fox Trotter,newly diagnosed with Insulin Resistence.......
can someone share what has been successful with their horse with IR??
Hi Renee, You'll be getting a welcome with alot of details from one of the pros, but in the meantime... The 1st thing I did was pull Chappie off pasture completely and do the drylot. You'll be getting straight grass hay, magnesium, vit E capsules made with oil, Stabilized ground flax seed , (Horse Tech or Omega Fields) and iodized table salt, to start out.
The hay should be analyzed for sugar and starch to see if it's safe and minerals for balancing. You can soak your hay for now to remove sugars - 1 hr cold or 1/2 hr hot. There's alot to it but once you get going with it, it's not bad. I've been doing the protocol with Chappie for over a year now and he's doing well , you and your horse will too. When I joined, I was bad at computers . The way I get to the files from the e-mails, is to click on an e-mail, then scroll down to " short-cut to url" .....messages., and click on that.Then when the messages pop up, along the left side there's a "files" you can click on and just start with "Start Here". You'll have alot to read for a start and can ask questions as they pop up. I'm so glad your girl didn't founder and you caught it in time.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: how to calculate total protein

Nancy C
 

Hi Jean

Your spread sheet shows she's getting adequate crude protein at 767 grams. Maintenance requirements for and average horse of her size would be 573 grams. (See Line 8)

She might benefit from additional amino acids though: lysine, leucine threonine if you are not still using the Tri Amino.

The control of the PPID is critical though and the protein won't over ride uncontrolled Cushing's.

Could also add more BP and or up the Cubes. Check Dr kellon's message just now to Sarah re: older horse muscle issues for chewing. If the ACTH is controlled upping the Cubes could be a huge help for her. At 26 she may be having a hard time getting all she can from the hay

I'd skip the enrich.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/166280>
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/165484>
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/165521>

Let us know about your blood work!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Jean" <bdzfarm@...> wrote:

Hi, Could someone please tell me how to calculate the total protein in Lady's diet.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory2/files/LadyBey/


Re: Equimins Advance Concentrate Meta Balance Formula 1 or 2?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "shesky1996" <shesky1996@...> wrote:

thank you Lavinia - I want to be prepared as last year he did get quite skinny do I just wanted to make sure I knew what to do of I needed to.

If he drops weight on his new diet and I need to add Oats, which Oats?
Just to make this perfectly clear, weight loss is not a reason to feed oats. Oats are used ONLY to help boost liver and muscle glycogen in IR horses that are in work. Timing of the feeding is very important.

If the horse is not in work, you need safe concentrated fiber sources of calories, like beet pulp or soy hulls. Older horses may also have issues with efficiently utilizing their hay because of changes in the angle of their tooth chewing surface - an issue entirely separately from missing or diseased teeth. Well soaked/wet hay pellets/cubes can make a huge difference for those horses.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Duplicate blood work

Melanie Pewe <melaniepewe67@...>
 

Vet was here at 8am. Pulled duplicate blood work for I/G, acth from MSU and
Cornell. 17 tests from msu since 03, but I question results. Vet skeptical
about comparing lab to lab. Wasn't happy Cornell charged FedEx expense to
ship mailing labels. Vet hasnt used Cornell in 5 yrs. Will post results
next week.

Melanie
In ND w a 26 yr old IR/ppid mare
Member since 1/04


new to this site ,need advice on supplements for my mare with IR

kitty_catlady59
 

Hello,
I just found this site and am I ever grateful!! my horse is a Missouri Fox Trotter,newly diagnosed with Insulin Resistence.......
I have made some dietary changes that her vet reommended,however ,all the researh I`ve done is confusing me as to what supplements she should be on........

her feet do seem tender ,x rays were done ,no sign of laminitis ,but the vet said it is very possible for her to have sore feet anyway with Insulin Resistence............

I heard L Carnitine is good for horses with tender feet ,also biotin supplements ,as well as magnesium supplements........

can someone share what has been successful with their horse with IR??

Most Grateful,

Renee


Re: lost blood samples

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Hi Jennifer,
If the samples remain frozen they are fine. Once thawed, they start to degrade. Will depend on what condition they are received in. If they don't arrive today I would be looking for a refund from the shipper for all the costs you incurred, not only the shipping costs. And would redo the bloodwork.

Lavinia, Dante. George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Sonny hay

Nancy C
 

You only need to add copper and zinc if you drop the IH.

Right on the biotin and methionine if you keep the IH.

See? Easy.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


lost blood samples

millionairess1989
 

How long are plasma blood samples good for? The ACTH & insulin sample was frozen and the glucose sample was refrigerated. Both were shipped with ice packs from KY going to Cornell. They were sent express mail at 2:30pm yesterday, with delivery guaranteed by 3pm today and are missing. If the box turns up is there any value to having the tests done?

Jennifer & Mill in TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/Millionairess


Re: Gabapentine

Marianne Herzberger
 

Thanks Nancy! But I assume it is not specifically targeted at insuline resistence itself, but possibly at pain resulting from that situation such as laminitis?

Marianne | The Netherlands | EC 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Marianne

Not Dr Kellon here but while you are on line.....

Gabapentine has been discussed before - prescribed for neuropathic pain. Recommendation from here is generally Acetyl-L-Carnitine as it works better. You can find background info by doing a message archive search.

** Archived Messages - How to Search this treasure trove of information and history

<http://tinyurl.com/767cxyy>

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...





--- In EquineCushings@..., Jannepauli <jannepauli@> wrote:

Dr Kellon,
 
what are your thoughts on Gabapentin as medication for Insulin Resistant horses?


Re: Equimins Advance Concentrate Meta Balance Formula 1 or 2?

shesky1996 <shesky1996@...>
 

thank you Lavinia - I want to be prepared as last year he did get quite skinny do I just wanted to make sure I knew what to do of I needed to.

Sarah and Shesky, UK

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lavinia" <dnlf@...> wrote:

If he drops weight on his new diet and I need to add Oats, which Oats? Whole, Rolled, Crushed or doesn't it matter? Shesould they be soaked or not?
I was also advised to only feed these when he had worked hard, but wouldnt that cause colic? Is it better to feed a very small amount each day so that when I do need to feed a 50:50 oat/beet split, he is used to them?
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Shesky1996/
Hi Sarah,
You only need to consider the oats addition if Shesky is not able to maintain proper weight and energy on a correct, mineral-balanced, hay-based diet while working regularly.
The type of oats doesn't matter. No, you don't need to soak them. Just mix it in 50-50 (by dry weight) with the beet pulp and feed within one hour of completeion of exercise. DO NOT use at any other time. The reason to use only at this time is that after exercise the body is able to use the resulting glucose thru a different pathway than the usual insulin-directed one so that the body can absorb the fuel. Normally, the oats will lead to an insulin spike that can set off laminitis in an IR horse. Here is the link to the "Feeding Laminitics Recovered when back to work" file":

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%203%20%20CORE%20DIET%2C%20ANALYSIS%2C%20NUTRITIONAL%20NEEDS/Feeding%20Recovered%20Laminitics/

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Equimins Advance Concentrate Meta Balance Formula 1 or 2?

shesky1996 <shesky1996@...>
 

Thank you do much! I actually made the right decision for a change :)

--- In EquineCushings@..., "drkellon" <drkellon@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "shesky1996" <shesky1996@> wrote:

I went for Formula 2 as it is higher in Magnesium and Copper, was this the right thing to do?

Yes, you want Formula 2, which also has no added iron.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Sonny hay

Deb Barnes
 

You'd be using about one ounce per day of the Equi-Phos. There are 16 ounces in a pound. 20 pounds will last a really long time - my math says almost a year (20x16 = 320). That's 22 cents a day.
I understand that, but this 100 bales will not last a year. I'll be lucky if it lasts until the end of November. Then I'll be getting new hay, new testing, new balances. So it does not pay me to get large amts. I see Horse Tech has Phos-4 in 5 lb packages.

And just an FYI- I have not been able to access Horse Tech ever in Firefox. I had to come over to IE to find them.

You can use any other product as long as it gives the right amount of biotin and methionine. You were giving 20 mg biotin and 4200 mg of methionine in the Integrity Hoof.
So if I cut my IH in half, I need to add 10 mg biotin and 2100 mg of methionine?
Then how much zinc and copper do I need to add? Or do I only add zinc and copper in place of the IH? Do I sound confused??????

Yes, you need to join out sister lists like you joined here.
Joined.:-)
Deb & Sonny
2010, PA
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Deb%20B%20in%20PA/

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