Date   

Re: Webinar on Cushings

Saucier Kathy
 

I listened to it too Susan and heard it from the start. I did not hear any
add for Prascend, which is what I figured the whole program would turn out
to be. I noticed they said pergolide the majority of the time. I had
submitted a question thinking half the people here did too and hoped if
enough were asking the same question, they would cover it. But they didn't.
It had to do with testing proof for Prascend being more effective than the
capsule form (specifically said not liquid or powder) of pergolide.

I was wondering if I hadn't been reading enough on this group since I no
longer have a C's horse, but the comment about testing in fall because the
labs have references for the seasons got me. I know we have more info now
and a test would be informational. But they sounded much more definite than
I thought I knew.

It was more balanced than I expected.

But I know many on this group could have offered even better information. I
filled out a survey and made suggestions. Anyone who gets the email from
them to answer questions from listening in last night should do the same. I
suggested that IR be its own show and suggested they have Dr. Kellon on for
IR, PPID or nutrition.

Kathy Saucier

Texas

2005 (no longer have a C's or IR horse)


Hello! New here!

ponyaddict38
 

I adopted a Cushing's large pony gelding the other day. Simon is 25+ years old & a former school pony. The owner gave him to me as she couldn't afford to treat him or pursue diagnostics. As she has given him to me, the vet will be first thing tomorrow to do some bloodwork & I've already okayed putting him on Pergolide (as advised by a very good friend of mine who has had a lot of experience dealing with Cushing's/IR horses). Simon will be moving to a new home to join my other pony, Anna, who is hypothyroid (currently on Levothyroxine) & she will be having blood tested for IR/Cushing's this Sunday. As she foundered in February, she is off grain & pasture & also eating Timothy Balance cubes.

Simon will be moving to join Anna on October 1st. The two of them will be turned out together on a dirt paddock, on grass hay as well as Timothy Balance cubes. Simon's haircoat when I last saw him in August was very sparse in some patches so I'm wondering for the winter, if I should be blanketing him & if so, do any of you have any blanket brand recommendations that will keep him warm on cooler days but not cause him to overheat?

Whew thanks for listening to me ramble! Hope to talk to you all soon!


Re: thanks for the support

Ronia Gortsos <rvangage@...>
 

Dearest Anne-Marie,

God Bless Raj may he rest peacefully until you meet again.




Keep well,


Ronia & Dillie
Toronto, ON
Aug 2008

----- Original Message -----
From: acrouss2000
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 10:21 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] thanks for the support


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lavinia" <dnlf@...> wrote:



If the bloodwork is going to Cornell, the total cost to the vet is $68 for ACTH/Insulin/Glucose/Leptin plus they will provide overnight shipping labels (vet needs to ask for them) that are $14. What the vet charges you is up to the vet.

Just wanted to remind all that there are shipping and handling charges for the mailing labels--I think we usually pay around $5 for s & h--bringing the total Cornell out-of-pocket cost to the vet to just under $90.

To all: be sure your vet knows about those mailing labels! They will save huge $$$ on shipping--we once paid FedEx nearly $70 to ship one tiny vial!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010
June 2010


Re: I give up on trying to get Malika to eat the minerals to balance hay!

Pamela Bramell
 

Leanne, Sometimes Frosty takes 2 days or more to eat his daily supplements. So I have had to come to peace with the fact that he isn't getting his daily supplements daily. Frosty will leave stuff in the bottom of his tub. So if there is a lot, I just skip the minerals until he licks it up. Could be next meal, could be next 2 meals. I do know that he is much better off where he is now whether he gets his daily supplements or not. He's on low s/s diet and daily pergolide. If he gets any flax seed, zinc, copper, or whatever else I can get in him, I call it good. And the other truth is, until I was on this group, none of my other horses ever had even close to a balanced diet. They were on hay most days of the week and high sugar/starch grain. And did I mention grain? Like, lots of grain? So while not ideal - we can only do what we can do. I know your Malika is in as good as care as any - so take heart in that. Sometimes I think we are too hard on ourselves and lose perspective of what we are doing or attempting to do. See my recent "whoa is me" post :)
Pam/Butters/Story/Frosty who is the only one that won't eat the kitchen sink
12/10
Va

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:


Leanne you answered this yourself....


--- In EquineCushings@..., "LeanneE" <ljebsen@> wrote:

But that doesn't come very close to the zinc/copper needed to balance my tested hay.


***********

Try a teaspoon of beet root powder or anise or alfalfa powder or cocosoya with an 1/8th of a teaspoon of the completely mixed supplements. Even if it takes two weeks to get through a day worth of supps.


Keep trying....you'll get there.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...





Thanks for patience in answering my questions...
Leanne & Malika
Camano Island, WA
5/26/12
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Leanne%20Ebsen/


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

Pamela Bramell
 

Jennifer, I can't remember the whole history of Darcy. Having been through 18 months of seeing my beloved pony, Buttercup, laid out on the ground because of founder/laminitis from my (and an uninformed vet's) unintentional mismanagement, I don't think that you can overreact to this situation! Stick to your guns and stick to the guidance from this group. Buttercup is well because I did just that. YOU are Darcy's advocate. My Pastor tells us all the time "People are going to talk about you no matter what you are doing"! He's right! Might as well do what works for me (and my gang) then. :) Hang in there - you are doing great and Darcy will be all the better for it.
Pam/Buttercup who has been on grass hay since December 2010/Frosty who can have a little grass/Story who get's a hard crest on just a little bit of grass
12/10
VA

I have lost control of what is going on with her, and I need to take it back. But I have gotten too much conflicting advice and been accused of overreacting, and maybe I am.


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "bectonliterary" <jwb@...> wrote:

...My BO, while very kind, does not share many of my ideas on feeding....She has told me that Darcy doesn't need hay and it's going to make her fatter.
.... Likely no hay in the slow feeder unless I put it there myself.


Hi Jennifer,
It sounds like you're really getting things lined up for Darcy. It will probably fall on deaf ears if you tell your BO, but my Chappie, who used to be on limited pasture and some hay, and developed IR, has been off pasture completely for over a year, eating 1.5 to 2% of his body weight in low s/s hay and has lost a ton of weight. He is now maintaining on 2% , comprised of low s/s hay, some ODTBCs and a bit of beet pulp, and looks good. As for the daytime hay, you might need to get a couple more hay nets and fill them every night after your exercise time with Darcy. Then all the BO would have to do is hang them thruout the day. When I talk to a "grass lover", which I was one also for years, I mention mustangs in desert areas that have to forage over miles of desert for their food and also people who live in places like N.M and Arizona who have to feed all hay, all year round with no green pastures and their horses do fine. Good Luck with your girl, you're on the right track.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

"So you aren't the bearer of bad news. You are the bearer of solutions."


LOL! Jennifer, can we clone you, please!


Sorry, mods - going to my room now.


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Is the leptin test expensive?
As far as diet goes, this is more problematic. My BO, while very kind, does not share many of my ideas on feeding. I was aware of these conflicts when I arrived, but because I chose to provide my own feed (soaked TC Low Starch) and at the time did not see grass as a problem, I was okay with it, especially because I do agree with as much turnout as possible for movement etc.
Now that diet has become an issue for Darcy, these disagreements of philosophy are posing a problem. BO's methods have worked well for her in the past and the other 4 horses she keeps look great. Darcy is just not suited for that lifestyle anymore apparently.
In short, I'm having trouble regulating her intake or even knowing for sure what or when she's eating. I have asked the BO to give her a small amount of bermuda grass hay (not soaked or tested, but I'm getting there)in a slow-feeder hay net that I recently ordered to prevent her from going into starvation mode when she is in her stall, but I do not think she has done so on a regular basis. She has told me that Darcy doesn't need hay and it's going to make her fatter.
Hi Jennifer,
Hear ya on the money drain. Leptin gives more information about the horse's baseline metabolism. It isn't influenced directly by the diet the way insulin/glucose are. Novels are a way of life around here so no apologies needed.
If the bloodwork is going to Cornell, the total cost to the vet is $68 for ACTH/Insulin/Glucose/Leptin plus they will provide overnight shipping labels (vet needs to ask for them) that are $14. What the vet charges you is up to the vet. Link to Cornell shipping info here:

http://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/Shipping/

Link to submission form here:

http://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/test/list.aspxSpecies=&Test_Name=leptin&TstTyp=&WebDisc=

Boarding can be tricky at the best of times. Lots of people on the list board and have found ways to get around BO. Sometimes, if that won't work, moving becomes the best option. I boarded my own horses for many years and sometimes it was easy and sometimes it was h***, even when I worked at the facility. And that was before I knew my boys were IR/PPID. Just take it one step at a time. You've made a lot of progress and now you have concrete information to work with toward your goal of helping Darcy stay healthy.

It is unfortunate that many BO's see requests for changes in management for a special needs horse as a criticism of their practices instead of as an opportunity to learn additional skills. All horses do not thrive under the same conditions any more than all people/dogs/plants do. As much turnout as possible is a huge benefit to horses. Their digestive systems are designed to be aided by the constant movement. It's the excess availability of the genetically manipulated grasses that we provide as forage that cause a problem.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: I give up on trying to get Malika to eat the minerals to balance hay!

Nancy C
 

Leanne you answered this yourself....

--- In EquineCushings@..., "LeanneE" <ljebsen@...> wrote:

But that doesn't come very close to the zinc/copper needed to balance my tested hay.


***********

Try a teaspoon of beet root powder or anise or alfalfa powder or cocosoya with an 1/8th of a teaspoon of the completely mixed supplements. Even if it takes two weeks to get through a day worth of supps.


Keep trying....you'll get there.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...





Thanks for patience in answering my questions...
Leanne & Malika
Camano Island, WA
5/26/12
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Leanne%20Ebsen/


Re: equine herbalist recommendation?

Megan Vogel
 

Claire is your best bet, she is a moderator for this list sometimes, but is also on the Equinehorsekeeping site, another sister site. shotgun.ranch@...

I am not doing the Witchladypotions any longer.

Cheers,
Megan
August 2003


Re: I give up on trying to get Malika to eat the minerals to balance hay!

Karen <ksbennett@...>
 

I have been gone for a while so not sure if this was mentioned. Chantilly would not eat anything in her food. I was forced to syringe everything. She got at least 10 or 12 different supplements. I used the 60cc syringes. Cut most of the tip off and mixed with water. She didn't love it, but we did this everyday for six years. Three tubes a day. I looked on line and found a company that sold them by the box as a good price.
Karen, Tommi and Angel Chantilly
3-2005 Bend,Ore
Happy Trails Tilly Until We Meet Again

:


Re: I give up on trying to get Malika to eat the minerals to balance hay!

 

Nancy & other advisors: Thanks for the advice..I have introduced the minerals/supp a few grains at a time, but there's no fooling her. I will look into custom mixes for palatability.

But one of my questions wasn't answered regarding and I could sure use an answer:

"So....now what?? I know she'll eat California Trace supplement. But that doesn't come very close to the zinc/copper needed to balance my tested hay. But it's better than the NOTHING she's accepting now! EXCEPt...by giving Calif.Trace wouldn't I be making a further mess of the balance to hay, because it is formulated to be a complete host of minerals for west coast hay..generally?

Thanks for patience in answering my questions...
Leanne & Malika


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

bectonliterary
 

Is the leptin test expensive? I'm kind of reaching the end of my budget on blood work, but if it's necessary, I'll add it.

As far as diet goes, this is more problematic. My BO, while very kind, does not share many of my ideas on feeding. I was aware of these conflicts when I arrived, but because I chose to provide my own feed (soaked TC Low Starch) and at the time did not see grass as a problem, I was okay with it, especially because I do agree with as much turnout as possible for movement etc.

Now that diet has become an issue for Darcy, these disagreements of philosophy are posing a problem. BO's methods have worked well for her in the past and the other 4 horses she keeps look great. Darcy is just not suited for that lifestyle anymore apparently.

In short, I'm having trouble regulating her intake or even knowing for sure what or when she's eating. I have asked the BO to give her a small amount of bermuda grass hay (not soaked or tested, but I'm getting there)in a slow-feeder hay net that I recently ordered to prevent her from going into starvation mode when she is in her stall, but I do not think she has done so on a regular basis. She has told me that Darcy doesn't need hay and it's going to make her fatter.

Honestly, I don't know anything other than this: Darcy is in her stall when I arrive in the evening to exercise her. I don't know when exactly she comes in or if it's the same time every morning. I exercise her and turn her out. She comes it at some time in the morning for TC Low Starch, which I thought was 1 cup's worth but the amount I saw today seemed bigger, and supplements. Likely no hay in the slow feeder unless I put it there myself.

This is largely what led to my coming here. I have lost control of what is going on with her, and I need to take it back. But I have gotten too much conflicting advice and been accused of overreacting, and maybe I am. But at least I'll know something for sure in a few days.

Sorry, that turned into a novel.
Jennifer and Darcy in SC
Oct 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lavinia" <dnlf@...> wrote:

Is the bloodwork being sent to Cornell? If so, can you contact the vet and ask that Leptin be added to the tests that are being done?

DIET: We need to know exactly what Darcy is eating, how much, when. Starvation tactics don't work to get weight loss as that just tips the body into conservation mode. To lose weight, you need to know what Darcy's target weight is and what she weighs now. Feed her either 1.5% of her current weight in total feed per day OR 2% of her goal weight - whichever amount is more. This is the dry weight of anything before soaking. Are you soaking her hay, unless it has been tested and is known to be less than 10% ESC+Starch? No grass, esp if laminitis is present. Tape the muzzle shut if on pasture. Feed soaked hay meals, 3-4 spaced thrughout the day so she has forage trickling thru her system all the time. No apples, carrots, grains, red salt blocks. Follow the emergency diet for now.


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

bectonliterary
 

I am going to make whatever changes are necessary to help Darcy, and I'm not so emotionally invested in her current living place to mourn the necessity of moving her. My emotions were worked more by the fact that I didn't have any real information and was trying to make changes blindly than they are by the idea of having to make such huge adjustments to her diet and the way she is kept.

If grass is the problem, then it's a problem and we deal with it.

So you aren't the bearer of bad news. You are the bearer of solutions.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "merlin5clougher" <janieclougher@...> wrote:
The pasture may be the confounding factor, here: many IR horses continue to have the inflammation that results in fat pads and so on, if they can access even a little bit of pasture. Dang -sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Let us know when the bloods come in.


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

Nancy C
 

Hi Jennifer

Want to also send CONGRATS on your vet relationship techniques!

In addition to the great info Jaini and Lavinia have given, you may need to get used to a new body altogether. The group has found often that once general fat is lost you can be left with little if any muscle. This is especially true of horse who have not been worked regularly.

Sometimes it takes getting used to. Work is really important as is the mineral balanced diet. If you find yourself in the above situation, there are things that can be added on to help build muscle, but the foundation of DDT+E needs to be in place first.

Otherwise it doesn't work.

Will look forward to seeing your blood work! Good job!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lavinia" <dnlf@...> wrote:
as opposed to overall weight loss?

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/

This gives us a better picture of what is going on and a way to reference this info whenever you have a question without having to constantly ask you for the little things. I'm sure you've read about the DDT/E approach we use and you are well on your way to getting all of this accomplished but the "devil is in the details".


Re: Webinar on Cushings

ferne fedeli
 

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Susan Zingle <szingle@...> wrote:
Listened to the webinar on the Horse.com last night sponsored by
Boehringer Ingelheim. For the most part, factual and well balanced.
Interesting! I had signed up for it and then completely forgot about it
until about 9pm. When I tried to get on then, got nowhere, so it must
have been over with. The Horse said they would have it available to watch
within a few days on their site.

Did they answer any questions about the high cost? That is what I asked
about and I think several others did too.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


Re: A few questions.

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

My 22 year old QH/Morgan mare, Beluga, was diagnosed Cushings after a bout of laminitis one year ago. She is on 1.5 mg Pergolide, 3/4 pound of Triple Crown Lite feed 3 times a day, Jiaogulan, and Remission supplement. Her hay is a grass mix, fed almost free choice in the paddock, and fed from a slow feed hay bag in the stall. She is on a 5 day a week exercise program. My questions with regards to her are: Could I/ should I add chasteberry to her diet? She does have mammary enlargement. Also, should she be on the Triple Crown Safe Starch instead of the Lite?
Hi Megan,
How are her feet doing now? Do you have a case history up for her?Have you had any bloodwork done on Beluga to check to see if her pergolide dose is maintaining her ACTH in the normal values - esp during this time of the year? Why are you considering the CTB? The mammary enlargement could be due to the PPID not being adequately controlled.
Great that Beluga is being exercised regularly. The TC Lite is actually lower in s/s than the TCLS. Neither are recommended in quantity, just as taste tempters when needed. Have you had the hay analysed? Remission is an expensive way to feed magnesium, which you may or may not need to add.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Testing Done, Results Coming and Questions

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Anyway, it's been six weeks since I began trying to help Darcy lose weight, and the vet says she doesn't appear any better or any worse. So I guess that's goodish news: she's not worse. But based on the fact that I read here that a horse should have "rapid body changes" within a few weeks of a proper diet and exercise, then I'm thinking this is just another sign that keeping Darcy on pasture, even with a muzzle, is not going to remain a possibility. Besides, I'm working my butt off exercising her
She also checked her feet for pulses and found none
Question: What can I expect as far as "rapid body changes"? Does that refer to the fat pads/crest reducing/disappearing? Is that likely to be the first change as opposed to overall weight loss?
Hi Jennifer,
Is the bloodwork being sent to Cornell? If so, can you contact the vet and ask that Leptin be added to the tests that are being done?Sounds like you and the vet have a good working relationship - this is a major bonus.
Now we need some more info from you. Would you please fill out a case history for Darcy on ECHistory6, our sister site for storage of indidvidual medical histories. You'll need to join but it will only take a minute. Link is:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/

This gives us a better picture of what is going on and a way to reference this info whenever you have a question without having to constantly ask you for the little things. I'm sure you've read about the DDT/E approach we use and you are well on your way to getting all of this accomplished but the "devil is in the details".

DIAGNOSIS: Thru bloodwork, which you just had done. The results will paint a bigger picture.

DIET: We need to know exactly what Darcy is eating, how much, when. Starvation tactics don't work to get weight loss as that just tips the body into conservation mode. To lose weight, you need to know what Darcy's target weight is and what she weighs now. Feed her either 1.5% of her current weight in total feed per day OR 2% of her goal weight - whichever amount is more. This is the dry weight of anything before soaking. Are you soaking her hay, unless it has been tested and is known to be less than 10% ESC+Starch? No grass, esp if laminitis is present. Tape the muzzle shut if on pasture. Feed soaked hay meals, 3-4 spaced thrughout the day so she has forage trickling thru her system all the time. No apples, carrots, grains, red salt blocks. Follow the emergency diet for now.

TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so the hoof capsule is realigned to the coffin bone, hugging and supporting it correctly. Pics would be really helpful here. Many times the form is a huge missing piecs of the soundness puzzle. Hoof shots and a few body shots as well. How to take good ones here:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/files/%202How%20to%20take%20hoof%20photos.htm/

Post in photos section of ECHistory6 or here or on our sister hoof list ECHoof . Just let us know where they are by including the link to them in your signature. Great that there are no pulses.

EXERCISE: As Able. Best IR buster there is but do not force a laminitic horse to move. That only causes more damage to the already compromised hooves.

Rapid body changes are going to be based on exactly where Darcy is right now and how tight the changes being made are. What order they occur in is also rather individual. General weight loss tends to be the first thing to change while many times the crest is the last thing to respond. Sometimes exercise will increase muscle while burning fat so overall there doesn't appear to be a wieght change, just a firming of tone. If PPID is driving any IR issues, the PPID will need to be controlled before you will see the IR issues resolve even with proper diet management.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


A few questions.

Megan Roberts
 

I will try to make this short, but I have some questions about my mare.

My 22 year old QH/Morgan mare, Beluga, was diagnosed Cushings after a bout of laminitis one year ago. She is on 1.5 mg Pergolide, 3/4 pound of Triple Crown Lite feed 3 times a day, Jiaogulan, and Remission supplement. Her hay is a grass mix, fed almost free choice in the paddock, and fed from a slow feed hay bag in the stall. She is on a 5 day a week exercise program. My questions with regards to her are: Could I/ should I add chasteberry to her diet? She does have mammary enlargement. Also, should she be on the Triple Crown Safe Starch instead of the Lite?

Thank you,
Megan and Beluga, Rome, NY
joined 9/2011

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