Hi Ponyaddict,
Please sign your name, date if joining and the state you live in. We can help you faster then.
As you read the files, you will find the list philosophy is DDT/E. Do all 4 and you will see positive results.

DIAGNOSIS is by bloodwork. A 25 year old pony could be Cushings which is treated with the drug Pergolide. The eACTH test will confirm if he's Cushings aka PPID and how severely. The results even this time of year will show your vet how to dose him. We are in the seasonal rise where all equine this side of the equator have a natural ACTH rise. To confirm Insulin Resistance you would have your vet pull blood on a NON fasting pony for Insulin/Glucose and Leptin. Please send the samples to Cornell. IF your pony is positive for IR, you manage with DIET. The diet we recommend also supports a Cushings horse or any horse for that matter.

Please read the Start Here file for the information on the Temporary Emergency DIET. This is just about what you're feeding now! Remove from pasture, soaked/drained grass hay if it is untested, ODTBCs and VitaminE, loose iodized table salt, freshly ground flax seed amd magnesium. he recipe is in the file. No grains, no apples,carrots etc. Remove red salt blocks (full of iron/molasses). Send a sample of your hay to Dairy One ~ www.equi-analytical.com and get the Trainer # 603 for $49. This test will give you the minerals you need to balance your hay which is your goal! This is like a custom made multivitamin pill for dinner! The cubes you're using are excellent! You could actually feed them exclusively if needed. Just moisten if either pony cant chew them. Do not pour the water off!

TRIM is a balanced foot with toes backed from the top and heels lowered. Boots and pads if Simon is foot sore.

EXERCISE is hand walking or moving at liberty **IF** he's able and not on NSAIDS. That would give him a false feeling of good feet! We don’t want him to reinjure his new attachment.

Start a journal on both ponies. Tell us how Anna was Diagnosised for hypothyroid. When you get your diet all lined up and balanced you will most likely see her hypothyroid disappear! Many times the addition of Selenium and Iodine jump start a sluggish thyroid.
Take photos of their sides, feet (camera on the ground) and post them to our newest medical file called ECH6. I"ll enclose the link.

Yes, you may need to start sheeting Simon if he is hairless. It depends on where you live (Alaska?) or Florida?

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/

Ask questions. We'll help.
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003

Robert McDowell. http://www.herbal-treatments.com/

Karen
NC 2007

Here! Here! Well said, tru dat! And 'tru dat' for all Dr Ks courses and groups.

Pat
NC, June 2012

On Sep 20, 2012, at 7:43 AM, "kimgedckewagner" <wagner.arch@...> wrote:

Dear "Humbug,"

I'm going to take a quick Pollyanna minute this morning before the drudge of the day wears on (and wears me out?).

I, too, am frustrated by the turn of events with regards to Prascend over all the topics that have been stated on this site in the past much more eloquently than I could write. No need to revisit this morning.

What caught my eye, and cheered my heart this morning in Linda's post is the idea that the hard work and dedication to helping people and horses that they'll never even meet, by Dr.K, the moderators, and the members of this site DID have some impact on BI's research. Maybe not enough yet, but it's a start??

And while I can concur based on the statements of those that listened in, that there is certainly more to the message of PPID that BI could be disseminating to the public, I'm going to take a minute to smile thinking about the fact that ANY public forum is occurring to talk about PPID. Years ago, my horsey friends looked at me cross eyed when I started to talk about IR and PPID. Now, I'm barraged with emails about products and medications and upcoming webinars regarding these two issues from my friends who, while they may not have their facts straight, are now aware of the issues, and want to learn more. Yeah, the misinformation ticks me off, and I spend a lot of time explaining, but I try to take solace in the fact that at least they're asking.

So....I can't say with any certainty that there's an altruistic motivation behind the webinars, but I can say for certain that there will be an owner or a vet out there that will have learned something from this national marketing and forum that the high price of Prascend is able to create, and perhaps it will start them on their journey to this site and the wonderful people here.

I want to see the hail mary pass that wins the game with flair, but the reality is that the running yards are just as important. Thank you to all of you out there that are moving the ball forward feet and inches everyday. It DOES count. You ARE doing good in this world.

I'm already thinking forward to next week when my vet asks me what Leptin testing is, and if I already know CG is IR/PPID, and often in the uncompensated range regardless of best mgmt practices, why would I bother? Purely and simply, I want the data in our records so that somebody brighter and smarter than me can use it one day to move the ball down the field to help someone else.

Okay, putting the soapbox back in the closet for another year.....

Kim & CG
New Hill, NC
Winter 2005

How humorous - research? Trolling right here for the most part to gather amount of pergolide used by many, how many horses, etc.

They clearly didn't include anything new or noteworthy in their *research*, and even glossed over the biggest concern all of us have - laminitis.

AND did not include anything about seasonal rise. How did they miss that?

AND had no recommendations for the 25% of the horses that their med didn't help.

Humbug.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Buttercup wouldn't give up, so I couldn't give up. Even had horse friends tell me they would put her down. Looked in her eyes and knew it wasn't time for that, thankfully!

Lol at the sneeze is certain death - from someone who thought a cut was certain amputation and abscesses were certain euthanasia. Don't know why I am like that with the horses and not my daughter! :)

Hang in and keep your sense of humor - it gets you far!
Pam/Butters/Story/Frosty
12/10
Va

--- In EquineCushings@..., "bectonliterary" <jwb@...> wrote:

18 months of that kind of suffering for both you and Buttercup must have been horrible. I know that every time Darcy even looks at me funny, I think it must be the first sign that her feet are going to fall off.

My heart can't take much more. Every sneeze is certain death.

Ugh.

Thanks for the encouragement. One step at a time, I'll get there.

Jennifer and Darcy in SC
Oct 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "dixie6264" <dixie6264@> wrote:

Having been through 18 months of seeing my beloved pony, Buttercup, laid out on the ground because of founder/laminitis from my (and an uninformed vet's) unintentional mismanagement, I don't think that you can overreact to this situation! Stick to your guns and stick to the guidance from this group. Buttercup is well because I did just that. YOU are Darcy's advocate.

Dear "Humbug,"

I'm going to take a quick Pollyanna minute this morning before the drudge of the day wears on (and wears me out?).

I, too, am frustrated by the turn of events with regards to Prascend over all the topics that have been stated on this site in the past much more eloquently than I could write. No need to revisit this morning.

What caught my eye, and cheered my heart this morning in Linda's post is the idea that the hard work and dedication to helping people and horses that they'll never even meet, by Dr.K, the moderators, and the members of this site DID have some impact on BI's research. Maybe not enough yet, but it's a start??

And while I can concur based on the statements of those that listened in, that there is certainly more to the message of PPID that BI could be disseminating to the public, I'm going to take a minute to smile thinking about the fact that ANY public forum is occurring to talk about PPID. Years ago, my horsey friends looked at me cross eyed when I started to talk about IR and PPID. Now, I'm barraged with emails about products and medications and upcoming webinars regarding these two issues from my friends who, while they may not have their facts straight, are now aware of the issues, and want to learn more. Yeah, the misinformation ticks me off, and I spend a lot of time explaining, but I try to take solace in the fact that at least they're asking.

So....I can't say with any certainty that there's an altruistic motivation behind the webinars, but I can say for certain that there will be an owner or a vet out there that will have learned something from this national marketing and forum that the high price of Prascend is able to create, and perhaps it will start them on their journey to this site and the wonderful people here.

I want to see the hail mary pass that wins the game with flair, but the reality is that the running yards are just as important. Thank you to all of you out there that are moving the ball forward feet and inches everyday. It DOES count. You ARE doing good in this world.

I'm already thinking forward to next week when my vet asks me what Leptin testing is, and if I already know CG is IR/PPID, and often in the uncompensated range regardless of best mgmt practices, why would I bother? Purely and simply, I want the data in our records so that somebody brighter and smarter than me can use it one day to move the ball down the field to help someone else.

Okay, putting the soapbox back in the closet for another year.....

Kim & CG
New Hill, NC
Winter 2005

Yes, the BI vet explained (justified) the high cost of Prascend at about the 35-40 minute mark of the 1 hour webinar. Things such as research, quality control, and cleanliness of the plant all contributing to their expenses.

This is consistent with their demonstrated belief that horse owners will believe pretty much anything.
By implication,those companies producing a lower priced product do not engage in the above.

They forgot to add marketing and packaging. And the one starting with 'g'.

Incidentally,I wonder where in their research they discovered that pergolide is dosed according to weight,as is their recommendation?

Or that 5mg or 4mg(depending on the country the horse is in)is the highest dose to be used?

BI readers ??



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

I just posted history at: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Travis%20in%20NC/

Sorry, it's long.

I got results back from an insulin test yesterday at 48.52 uIU/mL with reference interval of 10-40 with ACTH baseline: 22.3 pg/mL reference interval of 9-35 which I believes may mean low or beginning of IR, but not really Cushings.

However, the vet has requested to put Travis on 60 days of Prascend. From what I've read, Prascend is only used for actual Cushings and given the information on the drug, I'm a little concerned about using it at all, but especially if it's not really needed for IR.

Also, because of the EPM and some continuing neurological symptoms (lack of balance downhill), I'm a bit concerned that the elevated insulin level could be caused by infection rather than actual IR.

With all of the other problems he's had, I'm scared to do anything that could make it worse.

Any input?

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Karen" <ksbennett@...> wrote:
I was forced to syringe everything. She got at least 10 or 12 different supplements. I used the 60cc syringes.

Karen, Tommi and Angel Chantilly
3-2005 Bend,Ore
Happy Trails Tilly Until We Meet Again

I gave up on my 24yo mini/shetland mare, too. I tried all sorts of flavorings with no luck. Plus she turned her nose up at beet pulp, ODTBC, and TCL without any supps. added. I was trying to get some aloe juice in her in case she had a upset tummy, and that's why she was refusing to eat almost everything ...she refused that, too. She wouldn't eat flax seed either. It's pretty difficult to get them to eat supps. when they don't even like the carrier! So I started mixing her vits./mins. with flax seed oil and aloe juice and syringed them in. Thankfully she's good about letting me do that. Recently I tried feeding her Stanlee's Orchard grass pellets. I know they're not ideal as a carrier, but she loves them! I started adding the supp. mix to the pellets...a little at a time...and now she's eating the pellets with the entire supp. mix added in! Knowing her...this is subject to change at any time...and I might have to go back to the syringe!

Teri and Stormy
In 4-2012

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Linda <PapBallou@...> wrote:

You know they did! They lurk here all the time, and clearly they have to
see that the waters are boiling, so tempered their presentation accordingly.

You are probably right! Well, at least they had sense enough to do that!
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

I actually was much more impressed with the broadcast than I
expected to be. I wondered if they had used the ECIR website
for reference!!! Ha!

You know they did! They lurk here all the time, and clearly they have to see that the waters are boiling, so tempered their presentation accordingly.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Linda <PapBallou@...> wrote:

Things such as research, quality control, and cleanliness of the plant all
contributing to their expenses.

I listened to the archived version this morning. I really felt that what
Dr. Little emphasized was the cost of the years of preparation
for FDA approval and I'm sure that is very costly, not that it helps
those of us that were worried about the cost to the horse owner...

However, my vet was here today to draw blood for my PPID guy and I
talked to him about the Prascend/Compound issue and gave him a
copy of Dr. Kellon's recent email about it. He said definitely I should
stay with Compounded Pergolide. He said if he still had a horse, that
is what he would do. I was doing the Happy Dance!!! I sort of thought
he would be agreeable, but had that little worry...

One of vets or maybe both did recommend testing during the
seasonal rise. They also recommended ACTH testing over
Dex Suppression, which I thought was great. They also
mentioned a new test that might be available in the future.

I actually was much more impressed with the broadcast than I
expected to be. I wondered if they had used the ECIR website
for reference!!! Ha!
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

THIS IS MY SECOND POSTING OF THIS MESSAGE:

When is a laminitis flare over?

I know there are millions of variables but the fact that Boo got out onto
grass last week (Sept 8) and his diet was already tight made me wonder when
you "know" the trouble has passed. I know the grass is out of his system,
but I guess I am seeing the effects that the flare created. He is still
tender when he moves and he is still getting a gram of bute morning and
evening. He occasionally snaps up his left front hoof in a dramatic fashion
then puts it back down. It makes me think that it is a circulation problem
rather than laminitis. He never has heat in his feet, even when he is in
full blown laminitis so that is not a way for me to assess. Sigh!!!

He is eating great and the vet called with the CBC results and they were
fantastic. All kidney and liver enzymes and so forth where in top form which
is great for a 30 year old. He does have pedal osteitis which I believe is a
result of compromised circulation to his hooves. I want to get him off bute
ASAP. I want to start NO or J-herb, but not until I have a better
understanding of when this last episode of laminitis has resolved and he is
off the bute. He is due to have a trim Friday and we are discussing the
possibility of casting his front hooves. If we cast them, does he still need
boots for protection? It is starting to drift down into the 50's at night so
I am wrapping his front legs to be safe. I don't want to chance creating a
"cold weather" laminitis flare.

I want to learn more about the eponas and will get started researching that
when I get half a second!

Too many questions, I know. I so appreciate the support I find here!

Laura and Boo Boo

NC 1/2010

I need some help figuring out this problem. Boo had a laminitis attack
Sunday,Sept 9 and I began him on a regime of banamine from Sunday-Thursday.
On Thursday I had xrays taken and I switched him to bute. Not wanting to let
longstanding use of bute create the havoc that is often left in the wake of
a laminitis flare, I gave him a gram am and pm for the last 5 days. Then I
began tapering down to half a gram am and pm. His last dose of bute was
Tuesday evening. I gave him a ½ tsp of j herb this morning but now wonder if
it was premature. He had been doing pretty well the last 3 days and even
this morning and early afternoon he was holding his own. But tonight he was
down and when he stood up he was quite sore and ouchie in his feet. He is in
boots and pads 24/7 on sawdust. He crept to his feed bucket for his evening
feeding. Is the jherb known to act that fast in mobilizing abscesses (which
I am certain is part of the problem)? My trimmer is coming Friday to cast
his feet. .Should I switch to bute until he has had some time to adjust to
the new trim or just tough it out on the jherb? I want to help get him over
the hump with minimal pain if possible. He is still eating well, but is very
sore and painful. What would you guys do if it where your horse?



Thanks much’

Laura and Boo Boo the sweetest boy ever

NC 1/2010

18 months of that kind of suffering for both you and Buttercup must have been horrible. I know that every time Darcy even looks at me funny, I think it must be the first sign that her feet are going to fall off.

Tonight, she's lethargic from the shots she got when the vet was here. And of course, now I'm blaming myself for doing them. I knew she had reactions in the past. My heart can't take much more. Every sneeze is certain death.

Ugh.

Thanks for the encouragement. One step at a time, I'll get there.

Jennifer and Darcy in SC
Oct 2011

If the bloodwork is going to Cornell, the total cost to the vet is $68 for ACTH/Insulin/Glucose/Leptin plus they will provide overnight shipping labels (vet needs to ask for them) that are $14. What the vet charges you is up to the vet.

Just wanted to remind all that there are shipping and handling charges for the mailing labels--I think we usually pay around $5 for s & h--bringing the total Cornell out-of-pocket cost to the vet to just under $90.
To all: be sure your vet knows about those mailing labels! They will save huge $$$ on shipping--we once paid FedEx nearly $70 to ship one tiny vial!

Hi Lisa,
True on the shipping charges, but if the vet orders 20 or more at a time, they waive that fee. Even with it, the savings are considerable.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

Things such as research, quality control, and cleanliness of the plant all contributing to their expenses.


How humorous - research? Trolling right here for the most part to gather amount of pergolide used by many, how many horses, etc.

They clearly didn't include anything new or noteworthy in their *research*, and even glossed over the biggest concern all of us have - laminitis.

AND did not include anything about seasonal rise. How did they miss that?

AND had no recommendations for the 25% of the horses that their med didn't help.

They did follow one group of horses for a period of time that they didn't disclose. Only disclosed the time for the safety evaluation.

Cleanliness, QC - sounds as if they were saying they treat this med differently than others and so need to pass the cost on?

Humbug.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

Hi Jaini, Thanks for your suggestions. I took the bloods directly to the lab myself in a chilled eski. I believe they were tested on site for both insulin and glucose but I will ring the lab today and check that one.

I have uploaded a folder of photo's that tell the story over the last 12 months. It was this time last year that I started really getting into trouble with her feet, you will see from the pics how much the hooves changed over a 3 month period during the springtime (this time last year). At that time she was on free choice pasture. This year she is on a restricted diet but we seem to be getting the same problems at exactly the same time!

I am very worried we're going down the same track as last year, despite all my hard work, exercise, diet restriction, better trimming. Lameness has started again regardless.

It would be great if someone could have a look at the photo's and tell me what you think!

I am confused that the lab tests came back so normal. Take a look at the photo's from November last year.... Do they look like laminitis hooves to you?

Link here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/1201868189/pic/list


Thanks so much!

Zoe and Missy
Moorooduc, AUS
2012

Did they answer any questions about the high cost? That is what I asked
about and I think several others did too.

I just did something very technically stupid, so if this is a duplicate post, I apologize. They did talk about testing for efficacy through the manufacturing process, and the blister paks, and late in the program the BI rep took a swipe at compounding pharmacies. I was all ready to be angry at a blatant marketing effort, and it just wasn't. Referred to the drug as pergolide throughout, except for one or two references to prascend. Really all about IR and Cushings. Will see if I can find it on the website, will be interesting to see what I missed.

Susan, Chicago, 24 year old Shetland, 2005

Ferne,

I am pretty sure I heard the whole thing although I did go in the kitchen,
close by, to do a couple things. I did not hear anything dealing with the
high cost or your question. They said names and states for the submitted
questions & I would have recognized your name. Lots of Kathy's but not mine
either. I heard more questions coming in right at the time than
pre-submitted questions. And those were specific to the person and their
own horse.

If you submitted a question, I think you should be getting a survey. If you
do, one of the first questions has choices where one is "cost". Even though
I don't have a C's or IR horse right now, I checked cost off knowing that is
one of the biggest concerns. (And I am concerned about the cost for all
owners and horses out there!)

Kathy

Texas 2005



Re: Webinar on Cushings

...Did they answer any questions about the high cost? That is what I asked
about and I think several others did too.

Ferne Fedeli

No. California

4/2010

Did they answer any questions about the high cost? That is what I asked about and I think several others did too.

Yes, the BI vet explained (justified) the high cost of Prascend at about the 35-40 minute mark of the 1 hour webinar. Things such as research, quality control, and cleanliness of the plant all contributing to their expenses. You can listen to the archived version today at Horse.com under Ask the Vet. I wasn't too impressed with the explanation....sounded like advertising to me.
Since BI sponsored the webinar, I guess it really was!

Unconvinced,
Carol and Casey, Jesse too
May, 2009
Yucaipa, CA