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Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

 

Sent from Samsung tabletNancy <threecatfarm@...> wrote:^^It's okay.  Sometimes, not often, yeast can be an issue in taste or allergy.^^ 

Hmmm...I have used Forco daily, for over a year, switched to Ration Plus because his diarrhea was not stopping and it was suggested. It didn't seem to change anything, however after almost two bottles, his diarrhea stopped. So, I'm not sure if the Ration Plus actually worked or not. For convenience, I went back to Forco (Ration plus is liquid and Force is powder). A month later, he has diarrhea again. Could it be Forco?

Also, why not daily?

CCynthia from CA
Tucker 10/10




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Re: Switching to compounded pergolide

Nancy C
 

Good work Teri! Nothing like preparation. And cookies!


Just a reminder to all the URLS to info you need from Cornell are in the LINKS section

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/links>

Look for

Blood Test - Link to Cornell Discount Ship label info
Blood Test - Link to Cornell Equine Tests and Fees
Blood Test - Link to Cornell ACTH/Insuln/Leptin info


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Teri" <teririley@...> wrote:

In case this helps other members trying to convince their vet... he did tell me that he appreciated that I did all the research/leg work for him. I collected as much info as possible about Cornell before hand...even had the forms printed out for him...so all he had to do was draw the blood and spin it down. I took care of shipping. The same for the compounded pergolide. I had all my ducks in a row before I called him, and tried to make ordering as simple as possible. Also, with him, money talked. He couldn't believe how much cheaper Cornell was than the lab he'd been using. Same with the compounded pergo. He was amazed when I told him the price difference. I think price/cost tipped the scales my way with Cornell and definitely with the pergo.


Re: Time to Clip???

Nancy C
 

Hi Laura

If it is really hot there, he may be dopey due to that vs the pergolide, especially if you are still giving APF at 10 ml.

As for clipping, if he were my horse and I did not want to blanket him I would go hose him down during this hot spell. Make sure he has plenty of salt and ounce extra if he's sweating more than an hour - and is drinking well.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

Nancy C
 

Hi Laura


It's okay. Sometimes, not often, yeast can be an issue in taste or allergy.

Ration Plus and Forco are suggested here most often because they have been independently tested for effectiveness. They are both safe for IR horses. Forco has yeast.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lauramollrich" <lmollrich@...> wrote:

Searching for a probiotic. Does this have what a PPID/IR horse can have?


AniMed AniGest Digestive Enzyme & Probiotic Equine Supplement


Re: Time to Clip???

meg_findhorse
 

I live in north Texas and clipped mine last weekend. They had 1/2 inch thick coats, which by color can tell is winter coat coming in. They are Icelandics, so know they will keep growing their hair.

We still have had over 90F temps and won't be cool for awhile yet. Coldest is in mid-60s at this time of year. I went ahead and clipped with a #10 blade, so pretty short. Left their legs and heads unclipped.

They were really sweating with their winter coats coming in and are much happier now that clipped, though they are now more vulnerable to insects again.

Meg

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lauramollrich" <lmollrich@...> wrote:

We all keep waiting for this S. California heat wave to fade away but it's still here! One day the forecast is for 90's the next day cooling trend so not sure what to do regarding clipping. I wasn't going to clip this year but it is so hot that P is sweaty when I get to the barn. He was shedding a lot a month ago but now he's a fur bear. And, increasing his pergolide to get him through the seasonal rise has made him very dopey. He's not a happy camper.

Should I have him clipped or wait until cooler weather. If I do that then I will have to blanket and I didn't want to this year.

Help!

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20Mollrich/


Re: Should I change to Prascend?

 

<<You can ask your vet so show you the independent research she has that Prascend is better - IOWs<<
 
Thank you for your response. I will definately ask her for the research. I think what she believes in is that Prascend is going to be more constant because it is FDA approved.
 
I will call a couple of other vets to see if they would write prescriptions for pergolide.
 
It sounds like you suggest that I have him retested at this time. The last time he was tested was April 2011 and it was being controlled by the 1mg of pergolide.
 
Thank you again,
Cynthia Boriskin from  CA
Tucker 10/10


Re: Switching to compounded pergolide

Teri
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Linda" <PapBallou@...> wrote:

Just a thought, since so many of our list members have been struggling with the compounded vs Prascend to no avail...drop some cookies or similar off at his office. This is one of those circumstances, IMO, where that little appreciation can go a really long way!
Linda,

Great idea! He went along with me wanting to send labs to Cornell and now agreed to the compounded pergo. I'll gladly drop some goodies off at his office!

In case this helps other members trying to convince their vet... he did tell me that he appreciated that I did all the research/leg work for him. I collected as much info as possible about Cornell before hand...even had the forms printed out for him...so all he had to do was draw the blood and spin it down. I took care of shipping. The same for the compounded pergolide. I had all my ducks in a row before I called him, and tried to make ordering as simple as possible. Also, with him, money talked. He couldn't believe how much cheaper Cornell was than the lab he'd been using. Same with the compounded pergo. He was amazed when I told him the price difference. I think price/cost tipped the scales my way with Cornell and definitely with the pergo.
I feel very lucky that he is open to suggestions, and he's a heck of a nice guy to boot! He'll definitely be getting LOTS of goodies! :-)

Teri and Stormy
IN 4-2012


Re: Should I change to Prascend?

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Today, he is once again peeing and drinking excessively with diarreah. I asked my vet if I should have him retested and possibly increase his pergolide. She responded that his symptoms are from his diesease and that I should put him on Prascend instead.

Cynthia -

During the seasonal rise, most PPID horses must have an increase in their pergolide. You've been fortunate so far than you haven't observed a need to increase, and I take it you haven't tested since the initial diagnosis. As a progressive disease, PPID will necessitate increase at some point, and often it is just during the rise.

Prascend is nothing other than pergolide manufactured by a pharmaceutical company.

You can ask your vet so show you the independent research she has that Prascend is better - IOWs, something that is not published by the pharma company itself. Haven't seen anything like that as far as I know.

She also has no leg to stand on to tell you the Prascend will take care of your horse's PPID better if she has no serial tests to even see if he has been controlled all this time. Testing now, and finding out that he is not controlled, will not be reason to switch since she really has had no clue about his status all this time.

One of my clients just went through this with her vet. Client indeed told vet that she has no way of knowing if Prascend is better since she, the vet, has never once suggested followup labwork from intial diagnosis several years ago. Gotcha.

As we are seeing here more and more, many vets who bought into the big Prascend push have changed their minds and realize the Prascend hype is not necessarily what it's made out to be and that finances are going to be a make or break factor in treating some horses appropriately.

It also might center around if you have to buy it from the vet, and then they set the price.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Should I change to Prascend?

 

Two years ago, Tucker was diagnosed with Cushings after I noticed him peeing and drinking excessively. He has been on 1mg pergolide for two years and was doing very well with it. His peeing and drinking went back to normal, he started to build his topline and his thrushy feet got healthy. The only intermitten problem we encounter is the all out diarreah. Today, he is once again peeing and drinking excessively with diarreah. I asked my vet if I should have him retested and possibly increase his pergolide. She responded that his symptoms are from his diesease and that I should put him on Prascend instead. I told her that the cost would be quite a bit more and I would have to think about it. I asked if I did switch to Prascend and his symptoms did not change, if I could put him back on pergolide. She said after the reading reserch regarding Prascend, she is no longer prescribing pergolide, only Prascend. I am assuming if I don't switch, after my prescription runs out, I will have to switch anyways unless I find a vet who will prescribe the pergolide.

What is the groups view now? Those who switch to Prascend, are you happy with it and why?


G/I Results

bectonliterary
 

Hi everyone,

I've gotten some numbers back from Darcy's test results, and I wanted to run them by the group. I do not have the actual results in hand, just a voicemail from the vet. I know the tests were not run at Cornell, but I think I heard UC Davis.

Glucose: 90 mg/dL
Insulin: 2.4 mIU/mL

According to the IR calculator, her G/I ratio is 37.5 and RISQI is .65. MIRG is 2.

The vet said this doesn't necessarily rule out IR, but it's a good sign. She suggested that if the Cushing's test comes back negative, we could do the Leptin test. (Because she wasn't using Cornell for ACTH, I couldn't do the Leptin test with the same blood draw.) Does this sound reasonable?

And if she's not IR, why does she have the lumpy fat deposits?

Thanks in advance,
Jennifer and Darcy in SC
Oct. 2011


Re: Dexamethasone and Laminitis

jakehorse10
 

Hi, thank you so much; I have been anxious for information. In addition, barn manager put him out on what she called a "dry lot" for one day; still had plenty of weeds and more stubble than what he was on so I am super worried. He has rings from shots last spring which makes me feel like I am walking on eggshells right now. We are also getting new hay so I will have to test and rebalance that, but I am going to add spirulina and chrondroitin in the interim. Mom broke her pelvis so I have not ridden as much either. So worried.
Monti (Jake in Mich)
Nov 2010

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Keep an eye out for rings in the feet as time goes on. > would not use dex in an IR horse, especially one with suspected subclinical laminitis. anti-histamines for flare ups. Low dose winstrol
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/101312> > Winstrol is a low dose anabolic steroid not a corticosteriod like Dex. > tight mineral balancing as a foundation (copper and zinc are really important) and additional spirulina and chondroitin before the bug /allergy season.> Do an archive search with drkellon as the author and sprirulina chondroitin

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Veterinary frustrations (should I just increase Prascend dosage?)

awmitche
 

Thank you your reply. I will try to get this accomplished over the weekend. I will try to get the radiograph files from the vets office also.

Jill in NM/ aug 2012

--- In EquineCushings@..., "palomino.1982" <palomino.1982@...> wrote:

Hi Jill,

With Taloma's recurring hoof pain....we need to see photos of her feet and current xrays if you have them.

A correct trim will support the inner structures so they are aligned properly and can support the skeleton.

We recommend an aligning trim to the coffin bone...short toe and low heels.

Many if not most find that this can be accomplished more quickly and easily with a bare foot horse, using boots/pads for foot comfort during this transition. Also frequent trims...maybe once a week in the beginning. 5-6 week intervals will not get you ahead of the game and the horse pays the price with continued assault on the coffin bone and inner structures.

Here is the link on "how to take photos":

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/files/%202How%20to%20take%20hoof%20photos.htm/

This is yet another journey in PPID/IR horse care! Often times the trim is overlooked. Let's not have that happen with Taloma.

You are off to a running start...we will help you keep the pace.

Susan
EC Primary Response
San Diego 1.07


--------------------------------------------------------------
My current problem is that Taloma's foot pain has re-appeared. She has been on Prascend 1.0 mg/daily for about 1 month (since initial diagnosis) and this dose helped her immensely initially but since the foot pain has reappeared my thinking/understanding from what I have read here is that this dose is no longer enough to combat the seasonal rise.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Taloma%20and%20Jill%20in%20NM/


Re: Switching to compounded pergolide

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Should arrive on Wed. before I run out of my Prascend. YAY!!!! (I also asked him for a 0.25 script to have on file in case I need it later.) Thanks so much!


Teri -

Just a thought, since so many of our list members have been struggling with the compounded vs Prascend to no avail...drop some cookies or similar off at his office. This is one of those circumstances, IMO, where that little appreciation can go a really long way!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Time to Clip???

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>
 

We all keep waiting for this S. California heat wave to fade away but it's still here! One day the forecast is for 90's the next day cooling trend so not sure what to do regarding clipping. I wasn't going to clip this year but it is so hot that P is sweaty when I get to the barn. He was shedding a lot a month ago but now he's a fur bear. And, increasing his pergolide to get him through the seasonal rise has made him very dopey. He's not a happy camper.

Should I have him clipped or wait until cooler weather. If I do that then I will have to blanket and I didn't want to this year.

Help!

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20Mollrich/


Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>
 

Searching for a probiotic. Does this have what a PPID/IR horse can have?


AniMed AniGest Digestive Enzyme & Probiotic Equine Supplement

AniMed AniGest Digestive Enzyme & Probiotic Equine Supplement is a unique nutritional digestive supplement scientfically prepared with acid stable enzymes and probiotics. The enzymes in AniGest include: Amyliase, to aid in the digestion of starches and sugars; Protease, to aid in the digestion of proteins to amino acids; Lipase, to aid in the digestion of fat and Cellulase, to aid in the digestion of fiber. The live yeast (probiotics) in AniGest includes; S. Cerevisiae strain 1026 and Lactobacillus Acidopilus.

Improvements in digestive efficienacy increase the results from your feed and supplement program, helping your horse reach and maintain optimal condition and peak performance


Re: Switching to compounded pergolide

Teri
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lavinia" <dnlf@...> wrote:


http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Teri%20Riley/
If you can get the 3mg script for compounded now, by all means go for it. I wouldn't want to pay the extra for the Prascend either and sometimes the timing of drugs running out/prescription renewal/testind and getting results just doesn't coordinate as well as you would like it to :( If you use Thriving Pets, they ususally have a very fast turnaround - I get my script in 3 days.

Hi Lavinia,

Great news! I contacted my vet about the pergolide. He was a little reluctant at first...said he'd like to check into it further. After I told him I could get 30 days worth of 3mg compounded pergolide from Thriving Pets for $38 (inc. shipping)vs. paying $195 for the same amount of Prascend, he quickly came around! Of course I had all the info, phone# etc. all ready for him. He called in the script and I've already placed my order. Should arrive on Wed. before I run out of my Prascend. YAY!!!! (I also asked him for a 0.25 script to have on file in case I need it later.) Thanks so much!

Teri and Stormy
IN 4-2012


Re: Dexamethasone and Laminitis

Nancy C
 

Hi Monti

If you were going to have a huge reaction to the dex you'd have seen it by now. Keep an eye out for rings in the feet as time goes on.

I would not use dex in an IR horse, especially one with suspected subclinical laminitis. Sounds like you my have had a one-time issue so hopefully you won't need the dex again. Many members have used anti-histamines for flare ups. Low dose winstrol has been used by members in the past and I might talk with my vet about that if needed.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/101312>

Winstrol is a low dose anabolic steroid not a corticosteriod like Dex.

If he is prone to hives then tight mineral balancing as a foundation (copper and zinc are really important) and additional spirulina and chondroitin before the bug /allergy season are on you may be in order.

Do an archive search with drkellon as the author and sprirulina chondroitin in the message box for more info.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...



--- In EquineCushings@..., "jakehorse10" <montiponce@...> wrote:
Vet gave him a shot of dexamethasone. I asked if it was ok for an IR horse and he said yes. Should I be concerned about only one dose? If needed again, is it best to avoid this and what else could be used? Am I missing anything?
Monti (Jake in Michigan)
Nov 2010


Re: Do I taper the APF dose after 10 days?

Nancy C
 

Sue in the past I have just stopped. I would see changes in a few days if he still needed it. Not seen a reason to taper but that would be okay too.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Veterinary frustrations (should I just increase Prascend dosage?)

Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "awmitche" <jstacey22@...> wrote:


My current problem is that Taloma's foot pain has re-appeared... She only been walking under saddle, so she is doing nothing that would cause the sore feet otherwise.

Jill,

I am sorry I cannot access your CH right now--cut and paste issues.

But I can certainly empathize!

Pookey Bear was diagnosed IR in June 2010 after an acute founder episode. Since then I have done the ECIR balancing act!

Here are some of the specific things that have triggered episodes of footsoreness in him over the past couple of years: poor trim, certain shoes (when shod), toe too long (more than 3 weeks' growth), starch in hay too high, change in formulation of 'safe' bagged product, snitched bites of grass, lack of movement, change in boots, sore heels from boot rubs, and hubby feeding him the wrong hay. If he were PPID, I am sure we could throw 'seasonal rise' or 'dose too low' into the mix!

I encourage you to go over his diet with a fine-toothed comb, and to micromanage his trims as well, in addition to looking at his lab numbers and dealing with the seasonal rise. I think most of the list members will agree that it is critical that your vet be your partner in this effort, due to the necessity of getting testing done WHEN YOU NEED IT and to making the drugs available at the correct dosage, for your horse, without interruption.

If the new vet understands the testing protocol, uses Cornell for a lab, and does a good job otherwise, I would work diligently to get him on board by showing him (ahead of time) a testing schedule that would make you feel comfortable (Twice a year? Three times?) especially as you work to find your horse's unique response to medication and his seasonal rhythm.

That will give the vet the 'heads up' that you are a very involved, caring owner, and if he is not going to be comfortable with your level of involvement, hopefully he will make his feelings clear when you present your testing plan, and you can seek help elsewhere.

I am sure others with PPID horses will chime in on the Prascend dosage increase--I would see no reason not to gradually increase his dosage if you are able to get more drug without a battle. In the part of NA I am in we are about mid-way through the seasonal rise, and I know that it is very hard to play catch up with your dose once the rise gets ahead of you. Next year, depending on what your numbers look like, you can plan to increase Prascend for the seasonal rise starting sometime in August, most likely.

Also, Equioxx is my favorite NSAID but I only used it when I absolutely had to, and I did not ever use the Previcox.

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010


Do I taper the APF dose after 10 days?

Sue
 

Hi Everyone,

Thank you Dr. Kellon for your help.

I just have one last question. Do I taper the APF dose after 10 days or just stop giving it to him.

Thanks,
Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010

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