Date   

Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:

Hi Lorna,

Like some of the other group members, I was looking for something quick, easy and not messy, in a powder form. I am really glad I was told about the yeast being an issue.

I guess I could try using your gizmo if I can find it at my drug store. Next time you're at your drug store maybe you could find out what name it's being sold as for me :)

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012


I don't know what to call the gizmo I use,but you can find it at a drug store,where you find droppers and medication-givers,etc.
It is a rubber,cone-shaped doo-hicky.It inserts into the Ration Plus bottle small end first.Push it right in and it stays there.
Insert a syringe,without the needle,into the hole ,turn bottle upside down and withdraw however many mls' you need.
Lorna in Ontario,Canada


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Bob's your uncle.
No muss ,no fuss.

Who is Bob? What uncle? Whose uncle? Who is Uncle Bob?

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

I just don't like having to deal with the liquid. It's a mess. Forco was just easier with giving 2 scoops.
I don't know what to call the gizmo I use,but you can find it at a drug store,where you find droppers and medication-givers,etc.
It is a rubber,cone-shaped doo-hicky.It inserts into the Ration Plus bottle small end first.Push it right in and it stays there.
Insert a syringe,without the needle,into the hole ,turn bottle upside down and withdraw however many mls' you need.
Bob's your uncle.
No muss ,no fuss.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

Nancy C
 

Don't go to our room Lorna, you have too many chores to do. And your farrier is coming.

Cynthia, Lorna's right, I meant the yeast can sometimes be a problem.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@gmail.com

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:


I feed Ration Plus daily to 4 of my boys,ranging in age from 27 to 40.I'll continue to do this for the rest of their lives.
I'm sure there's no problem with doing that.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


re-test

Joyce <joycewoodcock123@...>
 

Misty started on 1/2mg Prascend on 30th August after a blood test of 55.
She seems to be doing okay on that, had no side effects. When would be the best time to re-test, should we do it now after 4 weeks or since she seems okay wait till the end of October when I understand the seasonal rise is at its highest. Is that correct? Thanks
Joyce, Misty and Storm
September 2012 Scotland


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

 

do you mean message 171798 ?
Nancy's comment was, "Sometimes, not often, yeast can be an issue in taste or allergy." ?<<
 
Yes, I was referring to that message.
 
Sounds like i will be returning to Ration Plus. I just don't like having to deal with the liquid. It's a mess. Forco was just easier with giving 2 scoops.

Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Vicki Martin Query on Fat & Fiber

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

My horse has been on Fat & Fiber for 3 years and does well on it except when the BO and I screw up on the pasture letout. However, I joined this group a few weeks ago and so inquired of the equine specialist at Pacemaker
Hi Karin,
Thanks for contacting the company rep. Fat can cause insulin resistance so it is not appropriate to feed it to add calories. Small amounts of flax are recommended as it contains the proper Omega 3:Omega 6 ratios to replace what would be found in fresh grass. Other oils are high too in the omega 6, which feed the wrong branch of the immune system.

NSC is an older method of testing that translates to WSC+Starch. For insulin resistant horses, we need an ESC+Starch level under 10% and want the starch part limited to under 4% as starch is converted 100% to glucose. Fat & Fiber being under 14% NSC does not make it appropriate for an IR horse.

She is correct in saying feeding multiple small meals per day will help decrease spikes in insulin. That the product isn't tested for each batch(which is normal) makes it an unknown for an IR horse.

We can't accept attachments on the laist so if you want, you can add the PDFs to your case history file.

Would you please add your location to your posts - this helps us to make answers more relevant to your area. Thanks.

Lavinia,Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Newbie - waiting on blood results and trying not to panic

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Shannon,

I'm sorry you had to have one of your horses put down. Sara's emotions that day were understandably high but it doesn’t sound like Khandi was too upset if she was eating hay during the event. 367 is way over the lab range of 9-35. I cannot tell you a number for 'excitement'.

The ACTH value is high (367pg/ml) but you havent broken any records here! She has Cushings and should stay on pergolide. You should retest her after 4 weeks to see if her number is the middle of the normal range. What type of pergolide did your vet prescribe? We have discovered that horses/ponies avoid the ''pergolide veil'' if you taper on. (The veil is typically going off feed and acting spacey). This means 1/4 mg for 3 days - 1/2 mg for 3 days - 3/4 mg for 3 days then 1mg a day. If you have liquid pergolide its easy. If you have powder capsule you need to unscrew them and divide the powder. This can be difficult as its not much powder to start with! I suggest you have your vet call the pharmacy and order the capsules in the above mentioned doses. Then in 12 days you'll be at full dose. We have a couple of pharmacies that are super to work with and charge under $20 a month for pergolide.
I am sure you'll be giving her more than one mg to reach 'normal'. Cushings is a progressive condition so you'll have to stay on top of her dose by retesting frequently.

Insulin is DIET! There is a file for Picky Eaters. You can season her food with different herbs. You can use Ontario Dehy Balance Cube as a carrier or a seasoning for beet pulp. If she absolutely wins on not eating beet pulp I would use the ODTB cubes because they are complete and safe. Just add the ER minerals right in that bucket! That’s good that she's eating the hay soaked. The cubes are balanced unto themselves so you can use them as a meal or two or 4 ~~ or as a treat ~~ or as a seasoning. Be sure it has the lavender label sewn on the bottom of the bag because many feed stores think they have it but don’t. Ontario makes cubes for other companies that rebag the product with their label. Read the label! Shannon, with her Insulin being almost 10 times higher than what we want its important to really try to tighten her diet. If you can get the bags of ODTB cubes, she can eat them as a complete diet - just add vitamin E, salt, and freshly ground flax seed. You can google Glambia for the different kinds of flax. They have a flax that is all ready ground and stabilized so that will make your life easier! This flax replaces the Omega 3's she missing by not grazing. You need to test your hay if you don’t know whats in it. www.equi-analytical.com #603/$49.

You've done a great job! Now for some little details we ask of all new members. Please delete the message you're responding to or leave a couple of pertinent lines. Always sign off with your name, state, when you joined and the case history link to Khandie. This is your link:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Willis%20-%20Khandi%20Bey%20-%20Florida/

You can copy and paste it when you sign off.

Please ask us if you have any problems or questions.

Mandy in VA
EC PRimary Response
OCT 2003


Re: G/I Results

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

I've gotten some numbers back from Darcy's test results, and I wanted to run them by the group. I do not have the actual results in hand, just a voicemail from the vet. I know the tests were not run at Cornell, but I think I heard UC Davis.
Glucose: 90 mg/dL
Insulin: 2.4 mIU/mL
According to the IR calculator, her G/I ratio is 37.5 and RISQI is .65. MIRG is 2.
The vet said this doesn't necessarily rule out IR, but it's a good sign. She suggested that if the Cushing's test comes back negative, we could do the Leptin test. (Because she wasn't using Cornell for ACTH, I couldn't do the Leptin test with the same blood draw.) Does this sound reasonable?

And if she's not IR, why does she have the lumpy fat deposits?
Hi Jennifer,
Do you have any pics of Darcy you could put up? Also, do you have a case history up for her? Was the blood pulled fasting - that is a really low insulin, esp with the glucose being 90?
Sorry, more questions than answers right now.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Newbie - just diagnosed with PPID - scared!

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

My 15yo TB x has just been diagnosed with PPID with levels of 192. The blood test followed him having a persistent cough and being lethargic for weeks and weeks and not responding to any other treatments. The vet decided to test as she suspected his immunity was supressed.
He lives out 24/7, the grazing is not amazing and I am already feeding a bit of haylage - he cannot tolerate hay as it makes him cough.
He has been very lethargic for the last few weeks. Should I expect to see some improvement in this soon?
Hi Sian,
Welcome to the list. First thing is to breath - both inhale and exhale. Sorry that your boy id having difficulties but we can help you sort all of this out. The list follows a protocol of DDT/E, which simply means:

DIAGNOSIS: This is thru bloodwork. You already have a diagnosis of PPID(Cushings) from the ACTH test you had. A reading of 192 is solidly elevated so it is good that he has been started on the Prascend (pergolide). As Cheryl mentioned, easing onto the full dose is recommended but if you have already started and he has shown no signs of the "pergolide veil" then it's not a concern. After he has been on the drug for 2-3 weeks it would be good to retest to see if the current dose is controlling his PPID completely or not. At this time of yesr, it probably will not be and he will need a doseage increase. All horses will have a rise in their ACTH levels this time of year in preparation for winter but PPID horse have an exagerated rise that leads to problems. One of the side effects of uncontrolled PPID is suppression of the immune system which can lead to things like bacterial/viral infections and skin issues that just don't respond to treatment. Laminitis is another.
Being a Tb makes him less likely to be IR outright but uncontrolled PPID does cause this even in Tb - I know, I have a PPID/IR. Testing is needed to rule this in/out. Insulin/glucose can be run with the next round of ACTH so that you are covering all the bases. This should be done NON-fasting as fasting is a holdover from human testing protocols and doesn't properly apply to horses as it gives falsely low readings.

DIET: Forage-based, low sugar/starch/fat with minerals balanced to your hay/haylage analysis. Until you test what he is currently eating you have no way to know what vitamins/minerals are present in excess and which are deficient. Supplying these in their correct amonuts and ratios to one another gives the body the tools it needs to fuel healing. Cut out all treats for now - no apples, carrots, sweets, no bagged feeds. Look in the files - we have UK sources for safe feeds. Pasture, esp short/stressed/sparse grasses can be problem for IR horses as they are loaded with sugar. Soaked hay would be a good substitute and should not exacerbate any coughing issues.

TRIM: Toes backed with heels lowered so that the hoof capsule aligns properly with the coffin bone. Pics of his feet, with the camera at ground level, fromm the sides/front/back and also the soles would be great. The hoof gurus can assess whether it is optimal or needs tweaking.

EXERCISE: As able. Best thing for any horse.24/7 turnout is great.

The lethargy he is experiencing could be from feeling badly from the cough/lung infection he currently has. It could also be from sub-clinical laminits, where his feet are not obviously sore but they bother him enough that he doesn't want to move out on them. If IR, that could be interfering with his ability to utilize his food and therefore he is short on energy when trying to work.Once you get the cause fixed, he should regain his previous energy levels.

Hang in there. Ask any questions as they pop up, we're here to help. You can check out the files/links sections here and also our website for more info:

www.ecirhorse.com


Lavinia, Danyte, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Newbie - just diagnosed with PPID - scared!

capnmrgn2000 <capnmrgn2000@...>
 

Yes, test was ACTH level test. It was run at Liphook. They didn't test insulin etc as well.

I can't put him on the emergency diet as he cannot tolerate hay at all, he has to have haylage or he coughs, and as he has a bacterial infection
The prascend is in tablet form, he is to have 1 tab per day, which I think is 1mg. The vet said to start with 1 a day, if we have problems then drop down to half, but she said lots of them don't suffer side effects, but I will watch very carefully to see if he does as I have heard about it.

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and all the information seems to be contradictory
HI Sian,
Nice job with your signature! I was in the middle of responding to you on Weds. night and my internet went down. I didn't get it back till yesterday and looks like my post never made it through. Sorry to leave you hanging! Is Rowan handling the Prascend at the full dose? You very well may need to go to a higher dose with an ACTH that is that high. I would suggest testing glucose/insulin (same blood draw, non-fasting, info. in the files section) with your next bloodwork. This will tell you how "tight" you'll need to be with his diet. We generally suggest re-testing ACTH ~ 3 weeks after you are up to the full dose so you could do it all then. Liphook is very up-to-speed on PPID so that is a good thing!

As far as his diet - I am not very familiar with haylage as we don't generally have access to it in the states. Patti had some good info. in post # 162266 if you want to take a peek at that. It may be safe, but may not be as well. Any chance you can change part of his diet over to Beetpulp (Speedi-beet or Kwik-beet)? You can feed up to 30% of his diet in beetpulp and it is generally low sugar/starch.

What kind of contradictory information are you hearing? This group is very research/science based. What is your vet telling you to do? It would be great if you could put up a case history for us here: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/
It only takes a few mins. to join and will really help us to get the big picture. You can then include the link with your signature.

A compromised immune system is one of the symptoms of Cushing's so hopefully Rowan will start to feel better and be able to kick the infection when his ACTH #s are brought down into a more reasonable range.

Hang in there!

Cheryl and Olli in MA
Jan. 2004
EC list support


Re: G/I Results

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

I know the tests were not run at Cornell, but I think I heard UC Davis.

Glucose: 90 mg/dL
Insulin: 2.4 mIU/mL
Hi Jennifer -

Were these fasting results or had Darcy been munching on safe hay through the night/or at least four hours before the blood was drawn?

The insulin is really quite low, which could be seen in a fasting horse.

If there had been a handling problem somewhere along the way, the glucose would be low as well, and it's not. Assume the glucose was run at the same lab and not at the vet's office?


The vet said this doesn't necessarily rule out IR, but it's a good sign. She suggested that if the Cushing's test comes back negative, we could do the Leptin test.
Sounds good. You could indeed have an IR and/or PPID horse that is doing just fine on your management.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, cynthia boriskin <cboriskin@...> wrote:


Tucker is only 12 (he was diagnosed at 10). Since I've had him he has always had bad diarrhea intermittenly. My vet thought he may be allergic to hay and wanted me to put him on a pellet diet. He only gets orchard grass that has been analyzed and I do balance his feed. I know when he did get stemmy forage, he reacted. If the Ration Plus worked, it took almost 3 months. That's why I didn't think it did. Does it take that long?
Hi Cynthia,
I'm not sure how long it took my friend's horse to get better, but I do know it was a long "battle". We've been lucky here not to have any real diarrhea, but Chappie's manure will get a bit too soft sometimes. I do have good luck with Ration Plus keeping things "well-formed". I also think stemmier hay is a factor for him. The hay we get ranges from soft long blades of grass to quite stemmy, so I give Ration Plus pretty regularly, especially when we get into a really stemmy batch.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Cynthia,

In the last message, it stated not to give probiotics often.
Don't mean to barge in here,but do you mean message 171798 ?
Nancy's comment was, "Sometimes, not often, yeast can be an issue in taste or allergy." ?

I'm sure the "not often" refers to how frequently yeast can be an issue, not how frequently to feed the probiotic.(I can go to my room ,Nancy,if you say so)

I feed Ration Plus daily to 4 of my boys,ranging in age from 27 to 40.I'll continue to do this for the rest of their lives.
I'm sure there's no problem with doing that.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

 

Not sure I'm following the last question. If the horse needs the probiotic it should be given per dosing instructions.<<
In the last message, it stated not to give probiotics often. I have always given it daily as recommended for maintenance. Is this not good?
 
 
Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

 

I have a friend with an older horse that had bad diarrhea. She tried everything and finally cleared it up with Ration Plus. He also does better with chopped hay.<<
Tucker is only 12 (he was diagnosed at 10). Since I've had him he has always had bad diarrhea intermittenly. My vet thought he may be allergic to hay and wanted me to put him on a pellet diet. He only gets orchard grass that has been analyzed and I do balance his feed. I know when he did get stemmy forage, he reacted. If the Ration Plus worked, it took almost 3 months. That's why I didn't think it did. Does it take that long?
 
Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Newbie - waiting on blood results and trying not to panic

Shannon
 

Mandy,

Your response could not have come at a better time. We received Khandi's blood work late yesterday. These are the results:

ACTH Baseline 367 pg/mL
Insulin: 97.29 ulU/mL

Since I am new to all of this, can you tell me if that is extremely high? I saw where it was mentioned about the seasonal rise is at this time. I also noted on the result paperwork that horses shouldn't be stressed. The same day the test was done, we had to put down one of our other horses. While the euthanasia was happening she was eating hay. Needless to say, our emotions, especially my daughter's was high. Khandi always picks up on Sara's emotions. Could that have contributed?

Our vet put in a prescription for pergolide starting her at 1 mg per day. We should have it on Tuesday.

We started the ER diet, however she isn't eating the beet pulp with her meds, Robaxin, Magnesium and salt. She only wants the hay. We are soaking it. You mentioned the ODBTC. Would this be a meal replacer or supplement for the hay?

Any help you can provide with the results and the ODBTC will be appreciated.

Shannon

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Mandy Woods" <bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Shannon,
Welcome to the group. Its good you're here because we can help you with
Khandi.

The list philosophy is DDT/E. You've started the DIAGNOSIS by getting
bloodwork. I hope your vet ordered the eACTH test (not the Dex Test which
can cause founder) Insulin/Glucose/Leptin on a NON fasting horse! Your
mare could be both Cushing and Insulin Resistant. Many horses on this list
are. These are two separate conditions with overlapping symptoms that are
treated differently. Cushings is a benign brain tumor treated with
pergolide. IR is managed by DIET because the horse makes too much insulin
which the cells will not accept.

With her breed, cresty neck and unexplained lameness you can start thinking
IR! How old is she? Many Cushings horses start to present in their
teens with long hair that is slow to shed in the spring. You need to start
the Temporary Emergency Diet that is in the "Start Here" file. This diet
reduces safely and quickly the sugars that she has been consuming. Pull
her off pasture completely. No grazing even when hand walking. zNO grains!
Put her in a dry lot so she can move at liberty. Get a muzzle and tape the
hole at the bottom of the basket shut and you may have to weave the sides
shut too. Horses are very clever at getting things in the basket! Until
you can find low sugar/starch hay, soak her hay for one hour in cold water
or 30 minutes in hot, pouring off the water where she cant get to it. This
reduces the sugar up to 30%. Feed her atleast 4 small meals a day 6 hours
apart so she has food going through her system. She needs the ER minerals
which are Vitamin E natural gel caps, loose iodized table salt,
magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed. The recipe is in the Start
Here file. These minerals are at all major drug stores and
Walmart. To be the carrier for the minerals, the safest and lowest
sugar/starch meal out there is rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp. You can make
meals in advanced and frig or freeze them. You can also 'flavor' them with
certain herbs and spices. If you have a Southern States store near you,
get a 50 pound bag of Magox/OX for under $25. Give her one tsp twice a
day. This bag will last you years! if you keep it at home. You can prepare
her meals at home, put in baggies (salt and Vit E gel caps don’t mix) so
put the E in with the beet pulp. Again, this diet is temporary because
your goal is to have your hay analyzed at www.equi-analtytical.com and
the minerals balanced to it. I can hear you thinking this is too much!
Shannon, all this information is overwhelming at first but I guarantee you
will be helping other new members soon! When you see the results you'll be
smiling!
If you shop at Walmart, pick up a fish hanging scale for under $7 to weigh
your hay. **weigh all feeds dry** then soak. Many of us use poly hay
nets to soak with. Stuff a net, weigh it, soak it in a much bucket or 18
gallon storage tank. Hang on a fence to drip out. That’s the second "D".

TRIM is a balance foot with toes backed and heels lowered. You will invest
in good rehab boots like the Soft_Ride. Shoes are not recommended in the
beginning because the horse is soooo sore than trimming is difficult and
putting boots on is a trick. Bed her deeply in sawdust so she can get off
her feet. Its ok if she lays down. Let her.

EXERCISE **ONLY** if she's able. This can moving at liberty in her drylot
providing she's not on bute. After the first few days, NSAIDS are
contraindicated. You don’t want a horse feeling better than her feet
actually are! and ripping around tearing the new laminae loose.

Please read the files! Start a journal on Khandi. Take photos of her
sides and her feet. Please join the ECH6 group too. This is where we keep
our medical records on each horse.. I'm enclosing the link.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/

Shannon, we know the information we give in the beginning is overwhelming.
You said she acts like she's starving ~ she is! This is a symptom of IR .
Soak that hay! Can you get Ontario Dehy Balance Timothy Cubes? That is
the only complete meal safe enough for her right now. Southern States can
get them for you. Take a deep breath and start with the diet. As
soon as you get the bloodwork results let us know - the lab, the values the
units and lab normal ranges! Ask questions as the pop up. We've been
through this and will can coach you.

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, cboriskin <cboriskin@...> wrote:


......I have used Forco daily, for over a year, switched to Ration Plus because his diarrhea was not stopping and it was suggested. It didn't seem to change anything, however after almost two bottles, his diarrhea stopped. So, I'm not sure if the Ration Plus actually worked or not.
Hi Cynthia,
I have a friend with an older horse that had bad diarrhea. She tried everything and finally cleared it up with Ration Plus. He also does better with chopped hay.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

Nancy C
 

Sounds to my like you'd want to stay on the Ration Plus.

Not sure I'm following the last question. If the horse needs the probiotic it should be given per dosing instructions.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@gmail.com

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, cboriskin <cboriskin@...> wrote:


Hmmm...I have used Forco daily, for over a year, switched to Ration Plus because his diarrhea was not stopping and it was suggested. It didn't seem to change anything, however after almost two bottles, his diarrhea stopped.


Re: Time to Clip???

Saucier Kathy
 

Laura, if you are afraid to do a body clip, you could settle for a trace
clip. Just shave the area from the chest up the neck to the throat and wide
enough to go beyond the neck grooves on each side.

I'm here in north TX with Meg and we have even had to clip a non Cushing's
horse in our barn because of the coat she gets and the heat we have. And
gave mine a trace clip yesterday. I kept a trace clip all last winter and
it sure helped with dissipating the heat, especially when I rode him.



Years ago when I had my Cushing's horse Magic, I did body clips from March
until October. He grew plenty coat for winter again after that October
clip. I used one of those Clipmasters (big heavy clippers that cover a lot
of area at a time and built to withstand the work) with a blade that cut
just slightly longer than regular clippers.

Hope that helps.

Kathy Saucier

Texas

2005

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