weird distortion on hooves?

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>

Okay at the risk of letting everyone know just exactly how inept I am, I posted picutres of some funky abnormalities on Dawn's feet.

I have no idea what has made these as it doesn't look like "traditional" founder stuff? Does anyone have any idea what this is? Ever since June this year when she had what we assume is a second founder episode(?) in her right hind (only?) that hoof has been warm just above the distortion that looks red.

Could it be an abscess that is just not blown out and needs help to do so?

-LeeAnne & Dawn, Newmarket, Ont PPID & IR 03/2004
Case History:
Yahoo Hoof Pics:
Newer Off-Site Hoof Pics:

Re: Weeds... management of IR horse, now Safe Feed sources TX & OK

Saucier Kathy


I have sent your info about Master Made in Grapevine to Susie to add to the
Safe Feeds list under Texas.

They are great over there. Haven't been there in years but 20-30 years ago
it was the only place for me to get supplies. I noticed on their website
they say they will test your hay. Have you asked if they will test the
sugars (be sure to have the correct terms for the correct sugars as from the
Equi-Analytical site)? They seem very caring about their customers and with
the line of products they carry or are willing to order, point them to the website so they can be even more knowledgeable. With all
the stuff they have on their website, maybe they would even be willing to
add this link.

I also noticed they have a branch in OK City. That might help some of our
members up there if that store can also order the cubes or beet pulp.


Re: pergolide trial horse, no improvement 6 weeks in.

Mandy Woods

Hi ~
Would you please tell us your name!
We need to know so much more about your horse before a we can help you. What breed is he? What do you feed him? What type of pergolide? liquid? powder/capsule/prascend? What do his feet look like? Did you have an eACTH test to confirm Cushings?

Here's the link to ECH6. Please join it and fill out the questionnaire so the gurus can help you help your horse. It will take a few minutes to join and a few more to answer the questions. If you could do that today, you could start helping him this afternoon!

The list philosopy is DDT/E. This is DIAGNOSIS by bloodwork, DIET being low sugar/starch/fat forage, TRIM is a balanced foot and EXERCISE starting with moving at liberty.

Has anyone ever mentioned to you he could have Insulin Resistance? IR is Diagnosed by having Insulin/Glucose and Leptin drawn and sent to Cornell. Make sure he is NOT FASTING! Feed him soaked/drained grass hay if you've never had your hay analyzed. This simple act can reduce sugar up to 30% and if he's IR it could mean everything to him.

Join ECH6 and we'll help.

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>

This is a high volume list that can be difficult to follow. To help make this easier for everyone, please follow the guidelines below:

1) Sign your posts with your first name, location, the date you joined. When asking for advice, provide a link to your case history or photos. All this information is important. It provides volunteers with the clues needed to get you quality responses, local support, vendors, vets, hoof care, etc. in a timely fashion.

2) Limit your signature to 3 or 4 lines.

3) Delete all but the part of the message you're replying to before posting. Keep who is saying what clear by leaving the chevrons (>) in front of the text you are answering then type your response in a new paragraph below.

4) When threads take off in new directions indicate the topic change in the subject line. For example: NOW: New Subject (was Old Subject).

5) Don't re-post messages if they don't immediately appear on the group or go unanswered. Allow roughly 48 hours before re-posting with the words "2nd Post" in the subject line and simply provide the original message's number. Be patient, it is not personal or a reflection on you in any way. With so many posts some do get missed.

6) Feel free to take off-topic, horse-related discussions to our sister yahoo groups. ECHorsekeeping provides a place for discussion related to non- metabolic horses. Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise is the focus to allow members a place to discuss nutrition for non- PPID/IR horses. General horse keeping practices, lameness and other equine health issues that are not related to a PPID/IR horse, alternative therapies and equine related philosophical debates are also acceptable on ECHorsekeeping.




For a complete list of our sister groups see the ECIR Files Table of Contents:

Solicitation is against list policy. If contacted privately by someone selling a product or service, be suspicious. These mails frequently target new members or those in a crisis. Often the product or service will not hold up to close examination. It could be harmless but also could be unsafe. Any suggested supplement, treatment, hoof care approach, etc, should be posted on the list so that everyone can benefit from list feedback. If you receive an e-mail selling something, either post to the group to ask about it, or forward the mail to


Yahoo uses "Web Beacons" similar to cookies to track Yahoo Group users. If you do not wish to be tracked, go here:

About half-way down the page, in the section "Outside the Yahoo! Network", is a little "Click Here" link that will let you "opt-out" of their new method of snooping.

Once you have clicked that link, you are opted out. Notice the "Success" message the top the next page. Do not hit "Cancel Opt-out" button which will *undo* the opt-out.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists

Re: Jiaogulan

Lorna <briars@...>

Hi Helen,

I have no case history. He hasn't been tested I have another former chronic chronic founderer who is managed exactly the same and she has been problem free for 12 months.
Please can you go here to our case history file,and fill out all the information you have for him?

We need the details,even though he hasn't been tested,before being able to make intelligent suggestions to help him.
If you could run the insulin and glucose tests that would be even more helpful.

Thanks .

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: Jiaogulan


All other aspects of his management are as they should be. I was advised to try Jioagulan and AAKG then to drop the AAKG as he wasn't improving. Now he is worse than he has ever been and there have been no other changes in his management. I'm even tempted to use Bute and he's never needed it before.

I don't know what to do.

I have no case history. He hasn't been tested I have another former chronic chronic founderer who is managed exactly the same and she has been problem free for 12 months. I thought I knew what I was doing after all these years but something is just wrong here with this fellow..

He is 9 years old, too glossy for Cushings I reckon. Probably IR but his management should handle that, shouldn't it?

Don't understand what going on.

He's a miniature pony. 34inches. 120kg approx.

Helen, Australia, 9/12

Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse? ( OT)

Skylane <skylane@...>

Robert is your father's brother..... ;-)

Not exactly the Queen's English....'s_your_uncle

Who is Bob? What uncle? Whose uncle? Who is Uncle Bob?

pergolide trial horse, no improvement 6 weeks in.


My 21 year old gelding who is a chronic laminitic, with all the symptoms of cushings is currently on a trial of a 2 month supply of prascend [pergolide]. He has been in 1 long laminitic episode since july 1st, when the neighbor's had their fireworks display the same night as he started having an attack, and the next day my non horsey roommate told me "your horse was running around like crazy last night in his paddock during the fireworks". so of course he was totally crippled the next morning, and has been pretty much ever since. he lives in a stall with 24 hour access to his dry lot paddock, eats 2 soup cans of triple crown lite am and pm, and gets 3 to 4 flakes of 1st cutting grass hay 3 times a day. He was originally foundered in the dead of winter Feb '04, with 5 degrees rotation in both fronts. I originally brought him all the way back into competition in hunter hack classes, [he was originally my prospect for a/o jumper classes]. but after a couple more years the attacks just took the vigor out of him until he is now just done, does'nt even want to go down the trail. My question is, is there any point keeping him on the pergolide? I have not seen any real improvement, and it is very cost prohibitive! any advice is much appreciated!

Re: Time to Clip???


How do people clip and not get covered in hair?
Who says we don't get covered in hair? LOL! Some of the clipper also specifically blow hair back onto you, so they have that design flaw. No way to avoid it on some clippers even with the wind blowing away from you.


Re: Time to Clip???


Fionn is already so furry that I just decided to bite the bullet, bought clippers and body clipped him today. I've never done it before so he looks quite patchworky but I am thinking I will get enough practice to get better before we go out in public. I decided the never ending blanket changes are better than having him be hot all the time. He was just miserable with all that hair.

How do people clip and not get covered in hair? I was completely covered and glad no one was around to see what a mess I was! I hope the Prascend slows down all this crazy hair growth!

Michelle and Fionn
Lexington KY USA

On Sep 28, 2012, at 4:11 PM, "lauramollrich" <lmollrich@...> wrote:

We all keep waiting for this S. California heat wave to fade away but it's still here! One day the forecast is for 90's the next day cooling trend so not sure what to do regarding clipping. I wasn't going to clip this year but it is so hot that P is sweaty when I get to the barn. He was shedding a lot a month ago but now he's a fur bear. And, increasing his pergolide to get him through the seasonal rise has made him very dopey. He's not a happy camper.

Should I have him clipped or wait until cooler weather. If I do that then I will have to blanket and I didn't want to this year.

Re: Yet another newbie.....can I see some before and afters?

Mandy Woods

Hey Tracy,
Please wait on grazing until you know just how severe her IR is. It would be like playing with fire. She may not be able to have any grass without foundering. But don’t fret! there's pleanty of food out there to keep her busy and safe. Keep us up to date!
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003

Re: Probiotic Safe to Give IR/PPID horse?

Lorna <briars@...>

Moved message to EC Horsekeeping.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: Weeds... management of IR horse/ join date


--- In EquineCushings@..., "meg_findhorse" <meg_findhorse@...> wrote:

Will be buying more fence panels for the drylot, as Twistur is pushing down the wired section. If 24/7 in there, then he'd eventually escape.
Hi Meg,
Can you run a strand of electric fence along the inside of your drylot fence? That could limit the pushing against the fence.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau

Re: Jiaogulan

Linda <PapBallou@...>

My miniature pony has been on Jiaogulan for 3 weeks now with no positive fact he is worse now. I'm certainly not linking the Jiaogulan to his worsening conditon though.

Should I continue to increase the amount?
Hi -

Can you link us to your history? Can't recall what is going on with him - so many variables could be at play.

Thanks for helping us!

EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004



My miniature pony has been on Jiaogulan for 3 weeks now with no positive fact he is worse now. I'm certainly not linking the Jiaogulan to his worsening conditon though.

Should I continue to increase the amount?

Re: Weeds... management of IR horse/ join date


Ah... thanks. Yes, it was that spring had the initial crisis from leaving out on some lush rye grass, which pushed him over the proverbial edge of the laminitic cliff. I'd also been feeding him all wrong for an Icelandic otherwise and they had also put on weight. Sigh!

If anyone is near my area, then this is the feedstore got the Ohio Dehy Balanced Timothy Hay Cubes. I gather that asking about low sugar isn't unheard of, but not a major concern that most feedstores bother on stocking. Not all local feedstores have these products.

Mastermade Feed in Grapevine, Texas (on Main Street)

They sell Triple Crown Lite products. They special ordered a bag of the hay cubes for me. Have used one bag so far and into a 2nd bag (with another in reserve). Transitioning.

Have used one bag of the TCL Safe Forage and on a second, but really just a snack level food (can mix with the hay cubes).

The feedstore also got in no-molasses beet pulp, which am still working on a first 50 pound bag. Have another bag ready to start.

I'm asking if they test their hay or if know anyone who tests hay etc., plus asking around for interest from other horse folks. There are a few, so may try the suggestion to team up if can find enough to go in together.

Will be buying more fence panels for the drylot, as Twistur is pushing down the wired section. If 24/7 in there, then he'd eventually escape.


North Texas
(Twistur / and also Bangsi - 2 Icelandic geldings)

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:

You joined in April,2010,Meg.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: Weeds... management of IR horse/ join date

Lorna <briars@...>

You joined in April,2010,Meg.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Weeds... management of IR horse


My Twistur isn't a blood tested IR horse, but he has symptoms. I have been slowly figuring out better how to manage him, but last year in late winter / early spring what sent him over the edge was likely annual Bluegrass seed heads (Poa annua). We did not put down any rye grass seed last 2 years. The rye grass was probably the initial push and letting him put on weight that got this IR situation and sore hooves started. Last year was the new weed in the yard of Poa annua. I am fairly certain that must have been the culprit. Later we had some Bermuda hay from feed store that felt was suspect when had another bout of sore hooves after the weed had died back in summer heat. We get varying batches of hay. Buying tested hay in bulk is not really an option. Maybe someday.

After the last hoof trim have angle better (also reduced flare) and he is doing well enough that can get him out again on trails for some exercise. Hopefully the last damage will be grown out in a few more months with no new damage happening.

I'm still working on making changes. We now keep them on a small dry lot most of the time, but did buy a muzzle that have tried a few times. He will get it off, so not really a good solution. We use soaked hay frequently (not all is soaked) and small opening hay net bags. They still get some Triple Crown Lite, which they love. Clicker treats are shelled peanuts and Wellsolve W/C pellets.

Began adding in soaked / rinsed no-molasses beet pulp in early summer. That took a little bit to get them eating it, but they like it now. No longer even have to doctor it up with sugar-free molasses syrup. Works great to mix in salt and Remission. Also give flax oil, and Vitamin E.

Recently found the Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy Hay cubes at feedstore, which they had to order special. I use the cubes soaked and also some not soaked for crunch. Am also trying some Triple Crown Safe Forage, but it is mostly just as a snack. They really like it. I have read it is too high in oil content for IR horses (so it isn't a big factor in his feed). The Safe Forage could possibly make a clicker treat too.

The hay we have is not tested. The quality varies somewhat, but is mostly the green leafy looking Bermuda that probably is from fertilized and watered commercial fields. My goal is to get an overall lowering of sugars in their diet and to replace some of the Bermuda hay with these other options, so I can have a more consistent lower sugar base for their food. It's a work in progress, but something is better from these extra changes. Twistur was choosing to buck / rear / kick / prance and run around, plus he can walk with hoof boots over rocks again. He wears Cavallo hoof boots on his front hooves. He was really enjoying being out on the trails with us hiking along.

He needs to lose more weight too. When he first was sore he was fat and swollen sheath / neck with watery eyes. More still needs to be done to reduce fat deposits.

I am worried about the upcoming winter weeds and missed putting down pre-emergence. Last year was tons of the Poa annua tiny seed head weed, which must have a high sugar content. Was first year with that weed seemingly everywhere when prior had nearly none of it in the yard. We didn't over seed with rye grass like had done a prior year, which is probably what started the whole mess. We probably will just have more time on dry lot (maybe 24/7) for some months, but we'll get him out to exercise another way.

This is sort of an update, but also want to shout out a thanks to the group for all the information. I've gone through archives reading and was able to ask at the feed store for the lower sugar option feeds. I know I'm not doing things spot on from the recommendations, but keep working on making improvements.

If anyone knows a source of tested hay in north Texas (near DFW area), then please let me know.

Feedstore has Bermuda, as well as orchard grass / timothy mix. I have only use Bermuda. Would orchard grass or timothy be a decent option?
I can move to more of the Ontario Dehy cubes slowly too.



Denton Texas 2009? (I have to look up exactly when found this group, but couple of years ago)

Re: Time to Clip???


I did clip mine with #10 blade, but have other blades to cut longer. If you want to clip some, then definitely do a trace clip or use a longer length. In the Spring initially cut them at 1/4", then later did a 2nd clip with #10 that is shorter.

I plan to buy a 1/2" blade can use also. That's longer than most any horse around grows in winter anyway.


Texas 2009?

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Gary & Kathy Saucier" <gksaucier@...> wrote:

Laura, if you are afraid to do a body clip, you could settle for a trace
clip. <snip>
of area at a time and built to withstand the work) with a blade that cut
just slightly longer than regular clippers.

Hope that helps.

Kathy Saucier



Re: Yet another newbie.....can I see some before and afters?


Thank you, Mandy, yes, my name is Tracy.
She has been tested, but I need to get the vet records. The former owner saved her from an abandoned property, and did all the vet work for her, she's been on a deworming program, but she just didn't have the time to really research in depth what to do for her. She's on a higher NSC feed (slowly tapering), was getting orchard grass (not here). She's had her teeth done, and a first trimming. My farrier will be out in the next week to work on her again.
I do have flax, which I can grind, and she's on Timothy pellets, soaked, and grass hay, soaked. I have also tried samples of smart protect, and smartgain4.
She was perky enough to cow kick her buddy, so I was pretty happy to see that, despite the inherent pissyness! Lol
I do have a grazing muzzle for her, I really can't let her have 15 min of turnout time with it? I guess I thought she could have a few min of grazing time.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods" <bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Tracy,
Is that your name?
Welcome to the ECIR group. Good on you for being an angel to this old
Cushings pony. If you read the files you'll see that the DDT/E's are the
list philosophy because they work. If you tell us more about your pony we
can help you faster. I'm sending you the link to ECH6 which is where we
store our medical files on each horse. Take the time to fill out the
questionnaire because it paints a bigger picture for the gurus to help you
faster. What we recommend is cutting edge so be prepared to be open
minded about changes! And in the meantime ~ here's a link to some of our
Success Stories including pictures.

First we need DIAGNOSIS by bloodwork. Her half a prascend may not be
enough. Have your vet pull blood for an eACTH test. This requires special
handling so please read the Cornell bloodtesting file. Then get
Insulin/Glucose/Leptin. We recommend you sending the samples to Cornell.
Schdule your vet in a quiet barn, early in the week on a NON FASTING pony.
Just feed her soaked/drained grass hay the night before and the morning of.
The results you'll receive will tell you if she needs more pergolide to get
her numbers into the normal range and if/how severe her Insulin Resistance

DIET is low sugar/starch/fat forage with minerals balanced to that assay.
Depending on where you live, you might like the Ontario Dehy Balance Cubes
aka ODTBC. These are small hay cubes with Beet Pulp and minerals already
added. It’s a complete safe low s/s/f meal! Perfect for a senior pony
with dental issues. They can be misted for her chewing convience. Don’t
pour the water off! Its full of minerals.

You said she's in a drylot ~ that’s great. She should get NO pasture,
grains, commercial feeds/supplements , treats or apples, carrots etc. The
Emergency Temporary Diet will help her today. If you have untested hay,
soak her hay for one hour in cold water pouring the dirty water where she
cant get to it. Its full of dirt and sugar! Can she chew ok? Soaking it
may help her. Or you can get a bag of plain timothy cubes and soak/drain
them. Feed her 2.5% her body weight a day to gain weight. Always weigh
feed dry. Feed her at least 4 small meals a day. As a carrier for the ER
minerals - rinsed/soaked/rinsed plain shredded beet pulp works. Its soft,
clean low sugar/starch, safe and you can feed up to30% her weight a day.
You may have to read the Picky Eater File! Don’t forget the ODTBc. The
minerals you need today are Vitamin E, loose iodized table salt,
magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed. This will help her fill her
tummy while you decide how you're going to feed her (or she'll tell you).

TRIM is a balanced foot with toes backed from the top and heels lowered. If
she's foot sore, put boots/pads on her or duct tape antifatigue mat cut to
fit her foot. This will help her immensly. Let her move at liberty and
annoy her buddies. That’s a good sign! Put a muzzle on her if she able to
get grass, leaves, weeds etc. Those are loaded with sugar. Tape the
muzzle hole shut.

EXERCISE is hand walking only if she's able. Exercise will increase her
metabolism. Feeding her the correct food will help her along with the
correct dose of pergolide.

You should see changes pretty soon! You may be experiencing the 'pergolide
veil'. That’s when the vet doesn’t tell you to taper on the drug.. The
prascend tablet says it cant be broken. You may have to have your vet call
in an rx for 30 days of liquid pergolide or powder/ capsule. Many of us
use Thriving Pet. They are affordable and prompt. 1-303-320-6034

Here's the link to the medical file
We know this is a lot to read and digest. It takes a little time but it
will click! Get her teeth checked with the vet is there and maybe talk
about a deworming protocol if you have no history. Take photos of her feet
and bodyshots.
Ask questions and we'll help!

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003

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