Date   

Re: Help With Understanding Blood Work

Danowski, Prof. Debra A. <danowskid@...>
 

Hi Jaini:

Thank you. This grey area is tough. Cooper has been foot sore almost steadily for the past year and definitely since I adopted him in May so I am looking to figure out why. This is his second fall abscess in a row. He was better for a few weeks before I got him because he was given Adequan shots. It didn't last long.

I have cut down the TC Lite by almost 1 lb. and recently added AAKG and Lysine to try and help. He had an abscess several weeks ago but was sore long before that. Now, he has no shoes on. I just found out that he has 8 degrees rotation (x-rays in March) and am planning to have more x-rays taken. Also, need to post hoof pictures. There's so much to do!

Thanks again for your help,

Debbie





Since it is known that he is IR (and is of an IR prone breed), I wouldn't be giving pergolide unless he is still footsore in the face of a really tight diet.

Speaking of which, is he still receiving 3 lbs of TC Lite? This is too much for an IR horse.

How is he feeling?


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

Dawn Wagstaff
 

Hi Paula,
I think it is because the WS is very potent and as a thin liquid, easy to overdose. There is some concern that Vit E at high levels can cause interference with clotting. Also, because E is used to treat EMND, I think they want people to make sure they are working with a vet regarding a diagnosis instead of just throwing high potency Vit E at the horse.

Yes, powdered E with oil will work fine.

Dawn

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "PaulaV" <crazyhobby@...> wrote:

Thanks Dawn,
That is really helpful. Wonder why the WS formula requires a script?
So would a powdered e that's mixed with an oil be OK?
Paula
CNY 2005


Hi all,
I did a large amount of research last year regarding Vit E supplementation after losing a mare and foal and having signs in the foal of Vit E deficiency despite supplementation. I also had some correspondence with a research vet at UCDavis regarding this subject, who recommended NanoE for future foal supplementation, as it is what they use in their research and client treatment recommendations.Nano-E is a true water soluble Vit E (Elevate WS may be also). Water soluble Vit E was first developed for humans that lack the enzyme to digest fat, such as Cystic Fibrosis patients. If you start to research Vit E and cystic fibrosis/Vit E, you will find a large amount of reading regarding problems these folks have with absorbing A and especially E.One of the reasons cystic fibrosis patients today live much longer than they used to is the development of water soluble "fat loving " vitamins.

Elevate powder, which is simply d-alpha-tocopherol-acetate, doesn't require a Rx as it isn't any different than other over the counter powdered Vit E.

The following link describes the difference between actual water soluble Vit E and powdered Vit E, or d-alpha-tocopherol-acetate. Elevate WS, the true water soluable Vit E, is only available with a vet Rx.

http://www.kerx.com/products/Nano-E/

Dawn Wagstaff
Angel Ellie
Michigan, 2003


Hello! An intro and a help request.

Terri <terri.axtell@...>
 

I will try to keep it brief...my 18 year old polish arabian has been having some issues with losing weight. My vet diagnosed him as EMS/IR after a fairly mild bout of laminitis. He put him on thyrozine to help the weight loss (2 scoops/day)

My horse is 15'2 and 1174lbs. I board, and have been asking the Barn Owner for help on this for a long time, and she is somewhat old school, but trying to help. He was on a little bit of equine senior (like a handful) and beet pulp...however I found out the beet pulp had molasses in it, so that's a no go.
Right now I switched him to Nutrena's Safe Choice Special Care (11%NSC)..he is getting a 1/4 of a cup AM and PM to get his meds and supps down.
Supplements he's on:
Equishine (for a vitmain, since he is not getting enough in his pellets)
http://www.equishine.com/equishine/horse-supplements/pellets-supplement.htm
Remission http://www.horse.com/item/animed-remission/BWA63/
Top-Line advanced for protein http://www.prognutrition.com/toplineadvanced.html
MSM
Omega Horse Shine (which is flax)


He gets his hay in a slow feed hay net (busy horse extra slow). I had to post signs all over asking the boarders and lesson kids NOT to give him treats, he's a huge mooch.
I bought him some hilton herballs for the occasional treat from me.

He is still a little off and there is a slight pulse detectable...he never laid down or did the 'laminitic stance' that i know of, he's willing to/wants to work. Vet said to go ahead and lunge him at the walk/trot/canter to get weight off, and that riding was ok, but just walking for now.

Farrier put shoes/pads on yesterday.

So...is this a good plan?

I am trying to stay relaxed about it, but I am worried (of course).


Re: Are cranberries a safe treat for IR horses?

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Patty Sobel" <psobel_gen@...> wrote:

... She enjoys the Skodes cookies and will accept the OD timothy balanced cubes but wih much less enthusiasm. I am trying to find other good treats to hand feed her. Sadly, she turns her nose up at peanuts in the shell.
Hi Patty, That's too bad about the peanuts, they're so handy. I went to the files and found : a small portion of prune, bit of "fruit-free" apple peel, small portions of sunflower seeds, some iceberg lettuce, small portion of low s/s pelleted feed. Chappie will eat a bite of celery, but Beau is back to dropping them.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Next steps adjusting pergolide: getting my vet on board

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Cass -

The goal in managing Cushings horses is to get the ACTH into the mid- or low-normal range, as well as control the symptoms. I think testing is absolutely ideal if you can afford to do it. She is still showing symptoms, so increasing the pergolide even without a test is reasonable. What about increasing (incrementally) to 2 mg, and then testing 3 weeks later?

The drinking/peeing should most definitely improve (usually within a few days of hitting the right dose, and almost certainly within 2 weeks of hitting the right dose); the pot-belly takes a bit more time, as there needs to be some muscle rebuilding; the hirsutism is variable, and some horses always have a bit of that.

Have a shufti around pubmed, and see if there is anything there:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed


Your vet is probably gobsmacked that someone wants to spend money!

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "cass_sonomacounty_ca" <cbernstein@...> wrote:

Don't we need a follow-up ACTH test to know if the dose is adequate to control ACTH? Is hirsutism ever going to improve if ACTH is within the above ranges? The water consumption? The pot belly? The appetite?


Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Cass%20for%20Satra%20-%20Northern%20California/


Re: Help With Understanding Blood Work

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Debbie - My understanding is that this would be a "grey area" result. Just what you wanted to hear, right?

If Cooper were previously diagnosed as Cushings, and on pergolide, then this result would be too high, and I would suggest increasing the pergolide.

However, since he is not on pergolide, this could mean early Cushings; or it could be still within normal for him.

Since it is known that he is IR (and is of an IR prone breed), I wouldn't be giving pergolide unless he is still footsore in the face of a really tight diet.

Speaking of which, is he still receiving 3 lbs of TC Lite? This is too much for an IR horse.

How is he feeling?

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/


.....ACTH Baseline 42.3 pg/mL Reference interval 9 – 35.....


Debbie and Cooper and Butterscotch
CT, October 2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Cooper%20and%20Debbie/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Paula - what a great mental image!

Cheryl over at EC Horsekeeping has made a great file about vitamin e (scroll to the bottom "Vitamin E"):

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHorsekeeping/files/

And Patti found a site with some info on the Elevate WS:

http://www.allivet.com/p-727-elevate-ws-natural-vitamin-e.aspx

The ingredients also include polyethoxylated castor oil, water and n-propyl-alcohol. Ewwww. Although I suppose the PE castor oil may be what is needed to encapsulate the vitamin E.

Uckele Liquid E is a mixed bag of tocopherols: anyone have any info on the suitability of that?

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/



At least that way I know they'll be eating it and not picking their gel caps out and throwing them at each other when I'm not looking ;)


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Dawn, thank you so much for this really valuable information. I am just so, so sorry that your research came about as the result of a tragedy.

Great info about Nano-e.

Thanks again,

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/


http://www.kerx.com/products/Nano-E/

Dawn Wagstaff
Angel Ellie
Michigan, 2003


Re: Are cranberries a safe treat for IR horses?

Danowski, Prof. Debra A. <danowskid@...>
 

My horses love Skodes, too. They also like dried split peas a lot. It took me several tries to get my mare to eat peanuts in the shell (she is not IR/Cushings but on the same diet as her brother) but now she runs to me whenever I have some. Celery worked for a little while, too, though it's not a big hit anymore. I've also heard that pistachios are popular but a bit expensive so I haven't tried them. Good luck.

Thanks,

Debbie and Cooper and Butterscotch
CT, October 2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Cooper%20and%20Debbie/


I am trying to find other good treats to hand feed her. Sadly, she turns her nose up at peanuts in the shell.


Next steps adjusting pergolide: getting my vet on board

 

I wrote several weeks ago that Satra's ACTH tested on Oct. 19 at 12 pmol/L. Susan kindly converted pmol/L to pg/ml at 54.48 pg/ml.

Satra has been on 1 Prascend for about a month. She is apparently compensated IR (need to pick up test results). Satra is no longer footsore, the symptom that lead to the testing and diagnosis. She still has a long, silky coat (it's winter), and she is pot-bellied (former broodmare). She also drinks almost twice as much as my other mare and urinates accordingly. She has a strong appetite - not quite ravenous, but often acting hungry. That's the sum total of her symptoms.

When I asked my vet to do a follow-up ACTH test now that Satra has been on Prascend for a month, the response was that we should titrate dose based on clinical signs, as opposed to test results. Fair enough: I accept that I should administer pergolide if Satra still has symptoms with a normal ACTH result. But if Satra still has the most obvious PPID symptoms and her ACTH remains elevated, how can I know her dose is inadequate without testing? My vet seems to be under the impression that ACTH will never again be normal, even on pergolide. Is that correct? I garnered this from Files, don't know where:
"The effective dose is that dose which controls ACTH to below---
6.38 pmol/L (29 pg/ml) Nov - July
10.34 pmol/L (47 pg/ml) Aug to Oct."

Don't we need a follow-up ACTH test to know if the dose is adequate to control ACTH? Is hirsutism ever going to improve if ACTH is within the above ranges? The water consumption? The pot belly? The appetite?

In my vet's practice, minimal intervention is a common necessity, and I don't fault that approach. Thank goodness, I can do more than the minimum. I don't want to risk full blown laminitis for the lack of a blood test!

I want to provide my vet with research and references. Suggestions? An article published in a professional journal on titrating pergolide and reference ranges for controlled ACTH would be a start.

TIA.

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Cass%20for%20Satra%20-%20Northern%20California/


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Paula,

Good luck with your new vitamin E plans.

Please can you trim the old text from your messages when you post again?
People on Digest really appreciate not having to scroll and scroll through repeated messages to get to the new one.

Thanks.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: Add to Files/WellSolve Low Starch

Nancy C
 

Hi Sandy

Send it to me

threecatfarm "at" cyberpine "dot" net

Thanks

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@gmail.com


--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Sandy C" <altoglo22@...> wrote:
For example, my analysis shows a higher ESC and Starch level than the one currently in the file. Not sure how/who to contact to upload this newer information.

Sandy
SC 10/10


Re: Add to Files/WellSolve Low Starch

Sandy C
 

I realize there is one Well Solve Low Starch analysis in the files from 2008, but I know that feeds vary greatly in their content (even if the manufacturer doesn't want us to know this). I feel the more analysis the better. For example, my analysis shows a higher ESC and Starch level than the one currently in the file. Not sure how/who to contact to upload this newer information.

Sandy
SC 10/10

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:




I was going to upload an analysis of WellSolve Low Starch to the file calle "Analysis of Various Feeds" but it says the moderator is not allowing uploads.
Thank you ,Sandy.
The analysis is already in our Files.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/

If you do have something that should be uploaded,you could contact one of the mods,and it could be uploaded that way.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

PaulaV
 

Hi Jaini,
Yes, I would mix it with oil and thanks for the comment on the rice bran oil..I will avoid that. I was over in the horsekeeping group also, but figured the IR based question on the dextrose might need to come over here. Sounds like I will be moving to a power and oil mix. At least that way I know they'll be eating it and not picking their gel caps out and throwing them at each other when I'm not looking ;)
Thanks,
Paula
CNY 2005

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "merlin5clougher" <janieclougher@...> wrote:

Hi, Paula - That one looks okay as far as powdered E goes, but I would mix it with a little oil to be sure it gets absorbed - cheap insurance! There is not really enough E in the rice bran oil (at least not in the amounts I would care to feed to an IR horse), and there is too high a ratio of Omega 6:Omega 3 in it.

I don't see why one couldn't make up one's own oil-based E; just add the powder to some flax oil, keep it in the fridge, and make sure you shake it well before dispensing. Just a matter of working out how much powder in how much oil.

Is there an issue with that that I may be missing? I use capsules, but now I am wondering if there is a less expensive (but still effective) option. We might need to move this to EC Horsekeeping.

And, everyone - don't forget to trim your posts.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

PaulaV
 

Thanks Dawn,
That is really helpful. Wonder why the WS formula requires a script?
So would a powdered e that's mixed with an oil be OK?
Paula
CNY 2005

Hi all,
I did a large amount of research last year regarding Vit E supplementation after losing a mare and foal and having signs in the foal of Vit E deficiency despite supplementation. I also had some correspondence with a research vet at UCDavis regarding this subject, who recommended NanoE for future foal supplementation, as it is what they use in their research and client treatment recommendations.Nano-E is a true water soluble Vit E (Elevate WS may be also). Water soluble Vit E was first developed for humans that lack the enzyme to digest fat, such as Cystic Fibrosis patients. If you start to research Vit E and cystic fibrosis/Vit E, you will find a large amount of reading regarding problems these folks have with absorbing A and especially E.One of the reasons cystic fibrosis patients today live much longer than they used to is the development of water soluble "fat loving " vitamins.

Elevate powder, which is simply d-alpha-tocopherol-acetate, doesn't require a Rx as it isn't any different than other over the counter powdered Vit E.

The following link describes the difference between actual water soluble Vit E and powdered Vit E, or d-alpha-tocopherol-acetate. Elevate WS, the true water soluable Vit E, is only available with a vet Rx.

http://www.kerx.com/products/Nano-E/

Dawn Wagstaff
Angel Ellie
Michigan, 2003


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

Dawn Wagstaff
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "merlin5clougher" <janieclougher@...> wrote:

Hi, Laura,

There seem to be two main kinds of Vitamin E capsules available: those with just glycerin, and those with glycerin and soy oil. Either one is perfectly safe, but you really want to buy the ones with soy oil in them, as it is the oil that allows the vitamin to be absorbed most efficiently.

Hi all,
I did a large amount of research last year regarding Vit E supplementation after losing a mare and foal and having signs in the foal of Vit E deficiency despite supplementation. I also had some correspondence with a research vet at UCDavis regarding this subject, who recommended NanoE for future foal supplementation, as it is what they use in their research and client treatment recommendations.Nano-E is a true water soluble Vit E (Elevate WS may be also). Water soluble Vit E was first developed for humans that lack the enzyme to digest fat, such as Cystic Fibrosis patients. If you start to research Vit E and cystic fibrosis/Vit E, you will find a large amount of reading regarding problems these folks have with absorbing A and especially E.One of the reasons cystic fibrosis patients today live much longer than they used to is the development of water soluble "fat loving " vitamins.

Elevate powder, which is simply d-alpha-tocopherol-acetate, doesn't require a Rx as it isn't any different than other over the counter powdered Vit E.

The following link describes the difference between actual water soluble Vit E and powdered Vit E, or d-alpha-tocopherol-acetate. Elevate WS, the true water soluable Vit E, is only available with a vet Rx.

http://www.kerx.com/products/Nano-E/

Dawn Wagstaff
Angel Ellie
Michigan, 2003


Re: Are cranberries a safe treat for IR horses?

Nancy C
 

Hi Patty

Raw, they are low in sugar

<http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1875/2>

However, I would be concerned about the pH level.

They also are higher in Omega 6 than Omega 3. Depending on how much you are feeding, they could overwhelm the benefits of the Omega 3 and 6 balance in flax.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@gmail.com

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Patty Sobel" <psobel_gen@...> wrote:

Is it safe to feed cranberries to an IR and PPID horse?


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Laura,

There seem to be two main kinds of Vitamin E capsules available: those with just glycerin, and those with glycerin and soy oil. Either one is perfectly safe, but you really want to buy the ones with soy oil in them, as it is the oil that allows the vitamin to be absorbed most efficiently. The natural seems to have about 20 to 30% more absorption than the synthetic. I usually buy natural, then I don't have to even think about it. But definitely get the soy oil ones.

Hope that helps!

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/



.......One of the brands had glycerin and soy oil in it.


Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA
1/2012


Prascend Experiences and Reporting to the FDA

Nancy C
 

*** Prascend Experiences

Anxiety is running high over the claim that 1 mg of Prascend (average size horse) will work as well as any dose of compounded pergolide.

The value of this group lies heavily in members reporting their experiences.

If you have any information to share about Prascend, either dosage related or side effects, good or bad, please send your story to one of the ECIR Group moderators:


Lorna Cane <briars@kingston.net>
Jaini Clougher <merlin5clougher@gmail.com>
Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@cyberpine.net>.
Eleanor Kellon VMD <drkellon@gmail.com>

Your file will be uploaded to the Prascend Experiences File. If you prefer to not have your name used, the moderators will protect your identity.

All members may read about fellow member experiences here

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%201%20A%20a%20Prascend%20Experiences/>



*** Reporting Adverse Reactions and Ineffective Drugs or Supplements to the FDA

Failure to respond to the recommended dose is an adverse event that should be reported to FDA as a therapeutic failure. Evidence of failure to respond can be comprised of observation of clinical signs (lack of change in symptoms) or through blood work.

Information on how to contact the FDA may be found here.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%201%20A%20a%20Reporting%20to%20the%20FDA/>

Reports become part of the permanent Adverse Drug Experience records.



Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists


Re: Elevate vitamin e powder safe for IR horse?

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Paula - That one looks okay as far as powdered E goes, but I would mix it with a little oil to be sure it gets absorbed - cheap insurance! There is not really enough E in the rice bran oil (at least not in the amounts I would care to feed to an IR horse), and there is too high a ratio of Omega 6:Omega 3 in it.

I don't see why one couldn't make up one's own oil-based E; just add the powder to some flax oil, keep it in the fridge, and make sure you shake it well before dispensing. Just a matter of working out how much powder in how much oil.

Is there an issue with that that I may be missing? I use capsules, but now I am wondering if there is a less expensive (but still effective) option. We might need to move this to EC Horsekeeping.

And, everyone - don't forget to trim your posts.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/



What about rice bran oil (enough e in it?)or a water soluble e powder? (as in this one: http://purebulk.com/vitamin-e-powder-700iu.html)

Thanks,
Paula
CNY 2005

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