Date   

Chiropractor/Acupuncture

kcmccrae
 

Hi everyone!

As my horse progresses in recovering from founder and we make major changes to his feet I'm wondering if chiropractic or acupuncture might be good to add to the mix. Just to recap his left front is long toe low heel and right front is clubbed.

My main thought process behind this is as we bring down the heel on the right front I'm curious how it will affect the rest of him. At the moment it is pretty easy to see that his right shoulder is less developed then his left since he hasn't been worked since September. Although, even when in training and being mindful of working more to the right then left when he does occasionally miss his lead it is to the right.

Also, the vet did check acupuncture meridians in October as I worried that since he had recently foundered that he might also be a little body sore but everything checked out ok so I'm not sure if it is needed at the moment. However, I know at his next trim we plan to take more off his right heel and bring his toes in more so might it be wise to get him checked again?

If so which would potentially be more useful acupuncture or chiropractor?

Thanks again everyone!
Katie
Charlotte, NC
October 2012


Re: Chaffhaye Alfalfa?

kcmccrae
 

Thanks everyone!

That makes sense and I figured it was something along those lines but wanted to try and be as thorough as possible.

Hope everyone is well!
Katie
Charlotte, NC
October 2012


Re: Mr. Frizzer and Lyme

capnmrgn2000 <capnmrgn2000@...>
 

I wish you luck and well being with the Lyme. It's simply an awful disease.
Thanks
Pam

Hi Pam,
Lot's of great info. in this thread! My horse was just diagnosed again with chronic Lyme so I'm refreshing my knowledge with interest :-)
Just wanted to give you a quick reminder to trim (delete all or most of the post you're responding to) prior to hitting "send". Thanks so much!
CHeryl and Ollie in MA
Jan. 2004
EC list support


Re: Another supplement question.

jennifer
 

I understand, but you were looking to add vitamins. I don't think those change that much? Only in the course of time?
Hoping someone with more information on this chimes in. :)

Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Terri" <terri.axtell@...> wrote:

My issue is this:
I board, and because of the drought we had this year, the hay is constantly changing. :(


Re: Mr. Frizzer and Lyme

J Amick
 

Judy,

should I give it to him year round? Not just when he has to have antibiotics?

Pam
Alabama
November 2012

Pam, I give a probiotic to all of my horses daily, year round. Helps them with immune system, and with digestion and nutrition absorption. Humans as well should heed the call... LOL.

Judy-PA
5/06


Re: CEFTIOFUR Red Flag

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "merlin5clougher" <janieclougher@...> wrote

All should be aware of the potential of cephalosporins, in particular ceftiofur (Excenel, Naxcel, Excede) to cause laminitis.

These drugs are commonly used, and labeled for use in horses - but caution, big-time, should be exercised in their use. In fact, don't use them in horses at all.

Horses with penicillin allergy may also react to this drug, which is potentially a very bad situation because of the sustained release.
Thank you, Susan and Jaini. I just flagged this info in my inbox, but I think I need to make a poster for the barn with this kind of info to keep it in front of myself each day and at the ready for vet visits. Now that the boys are IR, there are so many little things to remember, like cephalosporins, cortisone, etc. I need a "Guide to No-Nos" on the wall and not just in my head. Thanks again
Laura K Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Accessing information

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., Patricia <patricia2u2002@...> wrote:

I signed up for the yahoo groups equine cushings but don't know how to acess any information.
Hi Patricia, If you sometime can't put your finger on the info in Nancy's post, a way to get to the ecir files is to look down the page you're on now, past the "reply etc, etc, down to shortcut URL to this page". that link will take you to the page with all the accumulated messages. To the left of that is a blue box. Click on files and then you can scroll down thru those listed files or click on - 1 A ECIR Files - Table of Contents. And scroll around thru them. There's a file "searchable" feature that I don't know how to use, but just start scrolling around and you'll find all kinds of things. I'm very tech impaired so it's kind of hit or miss with me, but there's lots to read in there. Also I sometimes forget to go back to the ECIR website. It has good info too. It took me awhile to figure out that all I had to do was click on some of the headings for detailed info. lol Hope this helps and I didn't just repeat stuff you already knew !
Laura K., Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Mr. Frizzer and Lyme

runwayknitting2
 

Judy,
Thanks so much for your answer. That's exactly how we knew something was not right with Mr. Frizzer. Normally he doesn't care what you do with him he's just calm and sweet. The other day we were brushing him and he did not want his back brushed which is totally not like him at all. So we went further and started touching him all over and could not touch his flank. He is not a kicker but he tried to cow kick us. I knew right then something was terribly wrong. We had the Vet right out and he said his sheath was swollen, he cleaned him and said that's probably why he was so sore. I was very doubtful as this is how we found it last time.
Each Vet has to learn to listen to people who are around their horses all the time and know how they act and when I get a gut feeling something is very wrong I'm usually right on it. I guess they get one diagnosis stuck in their head and just feel they are right.
This new Vet cares a lot and I have printed off some of the answers for him and gave them to him and he is listening. Thought I might need to come work for him. But I am not the one who knows all of this it's all of you that help me and I told him about Dr. Kellon and this group was where I get my answers.

So very sorry you lost your horse. I lost my beautiful Snowby 2 years ago and never found out what was wrong with her, she just couldn't walk and was in tremendous pain. She probably broke or twisted something as she had a lot of joint problems. We probably kept her 5 year's longer then we should have..

I have been giving a pro-biotic, it's called Pro-Bios and was good for Mr. Frizzer last time. If you think this is better I will order it and then should I give it to him year round? Not just when he has to have antibiotics?
Thanks again for taking the time to answer.
I won't give up on Mr. Frizzer he just has too much heart. The Vet was concerned of the price of the Lyme test, I told him I already have more in Mr. Frizzer then most owners of Race Horses have in their horse. I have to know what he has just do the test. We should have it back by the end of this week.
Thanks
Pam
Alabama
November 2012

--- In EquineCushings@..., "J. Amick" <happyday23@...> wrote:


Is there anyway to tell when he should be tested once we get him well again, or just test once a year?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pam, when you treat lyme with the meds, you clear the blood of the disease. But the disease goes underground and into the muscles. Now, stress sets off lyme. Trailering, vaccinations, show stress, a new horse brought into the stable etc. In my horse the first signs were agitated easily. Didn't want me touching him for grooming etc (muscle overall soreness), would lay ears back at other horses when never did prior. Lameness in one area for a few days then better, but lameness moved to another area. These are a few signs. I highly suggest you get a small journal and write down what your horse is doing presently. Then you will recognize these signs immediately. This is a life long monitoring that you will be doing to catch the symptoms early. Also additional tick bites that are carrying the disease will re-activate what lies within the muscles.

Now, the horse's immune system is extremely important as generally it will/can handle tick bites with lyme. But being exposed to many tick bites, over a period of time overloads the immune system, and the disease takes over the blood and needs to be medicated again. In order to keep the immune system up and running, Dr. Kellon highly reccommended for me to give a probiotic of Ration Plus (a liquid available from Valley Vet or Google it as I have found it from many stores) or Forco. Both of these products I have used and really do the job. The reason in using them is to promote a good gut flora. Remember the meds you will be treating with are antibiotics and kill all flora in the gut..... Hense you must use the probiotic.

Also reccommended by Dr. Kellon was the use of B complex vitamins that are LOW in iron. B-Plex is what I used. As the disease is blood oriented it zaps the stamina and creates anemia. My horse had an iron overloaded liver, (via testing at Kansas State) so this product was used since I didn't need additional iron.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure hoping my Vet will have some answers. Although I seem to have to keep coming back to all of you who actually saved Mr. Frizzer's life last time. Dr. Kellon was the one who said in 2009 after we couldn't get him well to have him tested for it, and I will always be grateful to her.
Pam
Alabama
November 2012
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pam, don't get discouraged if your vet is grappling at straws here in treatment of lyme. Most vets are overworked. My encounter was 6 yrs ago and 3 vets thought I was insane when I suggested lyme disease. At that time the disease was practically unheard of in horses. Much research and studying has been done since then. Always ask here on the list for help, as no question is a dumb question. This list is cutting edge info, as most have gone down these bumpy roads and are willing to share what did and didn't work on their horse.

I do not post often now, as after all of the problems with lyme and cushings, and penetrated front coffin bones, my horse died this past April due to a fatty tumor that encased his colon deep inside which required surgery. He was 24 yro, insulin resistant and I would not put him thru this again. He had a 5 hr surgery done 7 years prior for the exact same thing.

I realize exactly how you feel when all of this hits, You cry and get it out of your system, and don't be ashamed for caring so much. You need to push onward and be strong for Frizzer. He is depending on you. The current list members and monitors are super here on the list. Dr. Kellon and many others learn from what each of us share. After going thru this ordeal, you will be the person to be posting and helping others find their way.
Keep us posted on Frizzer's progress.
Judy-PA
5/06


























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Re: Mr. Frizzer and Lyme

runwayknitting2
 

Thank You so much for your answer. I am just stunned that Mr. Frizzer probably has Lyme again. Wish there was someway to tell before he get's bad that it may be coming back to him.
We should have his blood work back by the end of this week. I started him on Docycline last night. That was all I had and am waiting on the other medicine to arrive probably tomorrow.
I wish you luck and well being with the Lyme. It's simply an awful disease.
Thanks
Pam
Alabama
November 2012

--- In EquineCushings@..., Lesley Fraser <lesley.fraser@...> wrote:

This is one of treatment regimes used in the UK, but it would need to be checked with your vet and re compatibility with EC/IR:

1 week of I.V. Oxytetracycline @ 5mg/kg q24h or q12h, followed by 2-3 weeks PO (oral) Doxycycline @ 10mg/kg q12h (every 12 hours). It looks like the IV part isn't a workable option for you, though.

I.M. Ceftiofur sodium (Excenel) @ 2-4mg/kg q12h has also been successful in some cases.

I have chronic Lyme Disease and my pony may have Lyme too, although his blood tests for it were negative. Lyme bacteria are complex and capable of avoiding detection by even the more sophisticated tests, so I remain slightly sceptical that his negative result means he doesn't have it. I'm focusing on the EC/IR for now to try and get that under control for him first.

Lyme can be a difficult infection to shift and ticks are always around to re-infect us. If Mr Frizzer's being troubled by Lyme again more antibiotic treatment should help him feel a lot better.

Best wishes to you both
Lesley


On 4 Dec 2012, at 03:32, runwayknitting2 wrote:


Thank You, the vet is sending it to antech I believe is the name.
I was not able to do the intervanious. The Vet lives quite a ways from here, and I'm just not good at all about the needles. Kind of have to depend on the meds. I do give him pro-bios with his meds to keep the stomach calm and it worked last time. This Vet swears by the Tetracylcine the other one swore by the docyclyclin. So many different opionins it make my head swim.
Thought we were finished with this, and evidently not. Now I'm told he will always have this, but don't know what signs to look for or just have him tested every 6 months or so. It snuck up on us once again. I'm just sick that he is going to have to go through this pain. Hopefully it won't be as bad as last time when it took me over 5 weeks just to find out what was wrong with him before any treatment.
All of you are life savers and i thank you so much for all your help.
At this point I don't care about the expence we already have more in him then most people have in a race horse. We just love him so much, I have to help him. His heart is so big, he's a keeper.
We will hang in there, I just cry when I leave he barn so he doesn't see me.
Thanks
Pam
Alabama
November 2012
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lavinia" <dnlf@> wrote:


Well all blood work came back ok, and he is sending the Lyme test off today and we should know in a few day's if it's back again.
This Vet is starting him on Tetracycline instead of the Docycline. So I need someone's opinion if this is ok?
Hi Pam,
Sorry to hear Mr. Frizzer is having trouble. Hopefully, the vet is sending the bloodwork to Cornell as they do a much more sophisticated testing now than titres and western blot.
Not Dr. Kellon but have been down this road many times and I live in Lyme central. The best treatment is IV oxy-tetracycline (NOT the same as oral tetracycline) but it is quite a bit more expensive route than doxy. If treating orally, doxy is the way to go. Oral tetracycline is much less readily absorbed than doxy in horses so the risk of colitis is greater and treatment less effective. Sorry, can't find my notes/links for that right now.
Sending healing thought to Mr. Frizzer. Hang in there.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Vet's comment on Lad

 

Andrea,

My apologies, I didn't realize they were your notes. Great job btw! The presentation is excellent.

Thanks for the heads up about the course, I am looking into it.

All the best
George & Wind
Mica Bay, ON
EC2010


Re: Utter enlargement in PPID

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Cass - This is not at all a dumb question! In fact, the only dumb questions are the ones that don't get asked.

Udder enlargement refers to fullness, rather than actual size. If your mare has an udder that looks like a couple of flat bags, with teats hanging off the end, all is well. If the udder is even a little bit full, not necessarily as full as when bagged up, then this is a warning sign. Uncontrolled IR and Cushings mares will sometimes also have milk expressible from the teats.

Hope that helps!

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/




......Is the utter enlargement typical of uncontrolled PPID the entire utter, like starting to be bagged up with milk? Or are such large teats the result of utter enlargement? I don't have any broodmare experience.


Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct. 2012


CEFTIOFUR Red Flag

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Thanks, Susan - you beat me to it.

All should be aware of the potential of cephalosporins, in particular ceftiofur (Excenel, Naxcel, Excede) to cause laminitis.

These drugs are commonly used, and labeled for use in horses - but caution, big-time, should be exercised in their use. In fact, don't use them in horses at all.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

----------------------------------------------------------------------A Post from Dr. Kellon:


Excede is ceftiofur, same drug as Naxcel but slow release formula.

Horses with penicillin allergy may also react to this drug, which is potentially a very bad situation because of the sustained release.

Also of concern is a very high incidence of laminitis observed during the safety studies (page 13 and 14):

<http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/Products/ApprovedAnimalDrugProduc\;
&#92;ts/FOIADrugSummaries/UCM203951.pdf>


Susan
EC Primary Response
San Diego 1.07


Re: Vet's comment on Lad

 

Please read Dr. McFarlane's current research/notes at http://thelaminitissite.myfastforum.org/sutra248.php#248
Here is a short excerpt from Dr. McFarlane's post, linked to above
Great post, George. Can I just point out that the notes quoted are MY notes, written from watching Dianne McFarlane's presentation at the EES 2011 (link above links to her presentation), and whilst I've tried to be as accurate as possible, anyone interested should watch the presentation themselves and not rely on my notes.

Slightly OTT, but anyone interested in the more technical side of PPID might be interested in the 5 wk Drugs and the Brain course offered free by Coursera which started on Saturday - there's quite a lot of info about drugs used for Parkinson's disease, dopamine, neurodegeneration, how drugs cross the blood brain barrier, that sort of thing - I'm loving it (so far)!
https://www.coursera.org/#course/drugsandbrain

Andrea
France/UK Jan 2010
www.thelaminitissite.org


Re: Another supplement question.

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Testing the hay, and balancing to the hay, is ideal. Second best is getting a compilation of tests from the hays in your area, and balancing to an average. What many (if not all) supplement manufacturers seem to do is promise that their product is designed to balance your hay (we already know this product does not exist). However, there are stop-gap measures: California Trace; Arizona Trace; Target IR (available from vets). While people are getting their ducks in a row, something like Cal.Trace, AZ Trace or Copper Complete, or Target IR are valuable supplements. (but, of course, for all horses, and compromised horses especially, nothing beats the testing/balancing route)

Arizona Trace and Arizona Copper Complete are available from HorseTech:

http://www.horsetech.com/popular-customs.html

Information about those mixes is here:

http://www.desertequinebalance.com/home

Terri, you are doing a great job. Most importantly, you already have your "BS Radar" up and functioning - better to be skeptical by far, and avoid giving your horse something detrimental.

Keep up the good work.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/




Shoot.
I really am at a loss then.


Thanks for the info!


Terri and Brandon from Milwaukee, WI
Joined 12/01/12
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Brandon%20Milwaukee%20WI/


Utter enlargement in PPID

 

Dumb question. My PPID mare has enlarged teats as a former broodmare. They hang down about 4-5 inches. Is the utter enlargement typical of uncontrolled PPID the entire utter, like starting to be bagged up with milk? Or are such large teats the result of utter enlargement? I don't have any broodmare experience.

Sorry for all the questions. I'm gong to take Dr K's course, but my travel schedule always fall smack dab in the middle!

Thanks,

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct. 2012


A low starch feed but not low enough - OK/TX

Saucier Kathy
 

I came across a feed that I thought some of the OK/TX area folks might come
across and wonder about. I wrote Big V for more information so I would know
what to post for you.

We are putting my NON IR horse on it. It is NOT low enough for an IR horse
but might be useful to those with normal horses but you wish to watch what
you are feeding them as a precaution.

It is from Big V Feeds out of Oklahoma.

Feed is called Heritage L/S (low starch) Horse Pellet.

The starch level is maximum 10% so I wrote them to find out the NSC (most of
these places don't have ESC data).

Their NSC on this feed is 16.2-16.5%. Sounds like it is determined by what
each ingredient is thought to be and calculated for the final product not by
a testing OF the final product.

If you have horses like mine and you can use this feed, you can read more at
www.bigvfeeds.com & look under products.

Ingredients start out with soybean hulls, shredded beet pulp, wheat
middling, rice bran, distillers dried grains, dehydrated alfalfa meal, etc.

Kathy Saucier

Texas

2005 (no IR or C's horse currently)


Re: EquiPride for IR/EMS horses?

kindredspirit58@comcast.net <kindredspirit58@...>
 

I had asked Equi-Pride about the iron. They said there was no added iron
what was in there was naturally occurring, or something to that affect.


Kathy Baker
11/08
Northeast TN


Re: Mr. Frizzer and Lyme/ NOW:Excede

palomino.1982 <palomino.1982@...>
 

I.M. Ceftiofur sodium (Excenel) @ 2-4mg/kg q12h has also been successful in some cases.

----------------------------------------------------------------------A Post from Dr. Kellon:

Excede is ceftiofur, same drug as Naxcel but slow release formula.

Horses with penicillin allergy may also react to this drug, which is potentially a very bad situation because of the sustained release.

Also of concern is a very high incidence of laminitis observed during the safety studies (page 13 and 14):

<http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/Products/ApprovedAnimalDrugProduc\;
&#92;ts/FOIADrugSummaries/UCM203951.pdf>


Susan
EC Primary Response
San Diego 1.07


Re: Another supplement question.

Terri <terri.axtell@...>
 

My issue is this:
I board, and because of the drought we had this year, the hay is constantly changing. :(

It's always grass hay but other than that, it's fairly inconsistent.
I really wish I had my own place so I could monitor everything very carefully.

Terri and Brandon from Milwaukee, WI
Joined 12/01/12
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Brandon%20Milwaukee%20WI/


Re: Accessing information

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Patricia - I sent you a private message to your email address - have a wee look.

We ask all members to sign their posts with their name, general location, and date of joining, to help volunteers find info efficiently. Also, don't forget to trim excess material from the posts - this *really* helps make this high-volume list easier to navigate.

Nancy has a great post on finding info:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/172876


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

--- In EquineCushings@..., Patricia <patricia2u2002@...> wrote:

I signed up for the yahoo groups equine cushings but don't know how to acess any information.

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