Date   

Re: Still Need Assistance in Lexington, KY area:

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., martha williams <mjwd444@...> wrote:

Martha,
I just sent an email about your dilemma to a friend who lives in Bowling Green, Ky. It's a bit of a distance, but I'll let you know if I get any possible solutions for you.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Here's to happy donkeys!

 

You made my day, too, Alex!!! Fuzzy nuzzles to those donkettes (and the rest of your crew, of course)!

Jannalee


Re: Still Need Assistance in Lexington, KY area:

 

I just called Southern States in Lexington KY. They can ORDER in the cubes
(buy don't have them in stock). There is nota minimum. Here is the
contact information

Address: 2570 Palumbo Dr, Lexington, KY
Phone:(859) 255-7524
Prices:
$$$$
Hours:

Friday hours 7:30 am6:00 pm

FYI, they know them as Timothy Balancer Cubes. I get them at the Southern
States in Huntington WV about 2 hours north east of your horse. and the
first time I called they were confused but were going to check on ordering
them in. When they found the info we discovered we were talking about the
same thing and they had them in stock. the sad thing is that my SS may be
closing so I'm going to have to look for another source.

Sandi and Cody in WV
2007


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:03 PM, martha williams <mjwd444@...> wrote:

**


1 .Since there is no possible source of ODBTC in this area, and since a
very laminitic horse
is used to these cubes as an important part of her diet, what would be
a substitute that
would be feasible in a hospital type situation?
2. Where can we find the information about excessive iron -we have
already checked the file on
that subject. (Maybe didn't look in the right place.)
Question: What ranges are considered acceptable? And is 131 ppm As
Sampled
excessive?
Thank you very much. M. Williams/D.Dubrow NYC/Hudson
Valley, NY '08

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Can sweat wraps in 100+ F weather trigger Laminitis/Founder

loes <loes1@...>
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon and Thank you Suzie.
Loes, SO CAL 2008


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Thank you Laura K Chappie& Beau ODBTC is up north NY state. Horse in hospital in Lexington KY. No truck . IS THERE SOME SUBSTITUTE FOR. ODBTC? ALSO request info re iron in hay. Is 131 As Sampled excessive?

martha williams
 

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

Nancy <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

 

Congrats to you, Alex, and to Jannalee! Great story and great example of why we all work so hard at this. You made my day.

Excellent work.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, Jacksonville Oregon, September 27-29, 2013.

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Alexandria" <alexandriapallas@...> wrote:

Hi,

Jannalee suggested that I post what I wrote to her about my donkeys.


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Re: Please adivse on what to do.

Connie Proceviat <connieproceviat@...>
 

Just joined the group a couple weeks ago. Have been reading and learning every chance I get. Has been a wealth of info. Wow! I have 2 geldings diagnosed with IR March 2013. Working on implementing emergency diet. Have seen very positive results already. Just posted Sindri's case study. Would appreciate any feedback. Will post Falki's case study and pics of both as quickly as I can.  Almost out of exisitng hay supply but should get new crop next week then will sample and get analyzed.
 
Connie along with Sindri and Falki
Manitoba Canada


Re: Still Need Assistance in Lexington, KY area:

gypsylassie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., martha williams <mjwd444@...> wrote:

1 .Since there is no possible source of ODBTC in this area, and since a
very laminitic horse is used to these cubes as an important part of her diet, what would be
a substitute that would be feasible in a hospital type situation?...
Hi Martha,
Is the horse already down there? You probably already thought of this, but is there any way someone going to visit the horse could take a load of ODTBCs with them? Up to one pallet of ODTBCs will fit in the bed of a pick up truck that has a topper.
I don't know if it is allowed to give her name, moderators?, but there is a member down in Lexington that may not be following the posts right now. She might have some ideas. She has a great DIY Ice boot in the "emergency protocol - horse got out on grass" folder.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Here's to happy donkeys!

Nancy C
 

Congrats to you, Alex, and to Jannalee! Great story and great example of why we all work so hard at this. You made my day.

Excellent work.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, Jacksonville Oregon, September 27-29, 2013.

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Alexandria" <alexandriapallas@...> wrote:

Hi,

Jannalee suggested that I post what I wrote to her about my donkeys.


Still Need Assistance in Lexington, KY area:

martha williams
 

1 .Since there is no possible source of ODBTC in this area, and since a
very laminitic horse
is used to these cubes as an important part of her diet, what would be
a substitute that
would be feasible in a hospital type situation?
2. Where can we find the information about excessive iron -we have
already checked the file on
that subject. (Maybe didn't look in the right place.)
Question: What ranges are considered acceptable? And is 131 ppm As
Sampled
excessive?
Thank you very much. M. Williams/D.Dubrow NYC/Hudson
Valley, NY '08


Re: Questions on "veil"

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I would cut back to 1.5 until back to normal. You can give Prascend in 0.25 doses by dissolving a half tab in 8 to 10 mL of water and only giving half. Give the other half the next day.

Is your diet tight?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Equi-Ananlytical

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Just spoke to Chris at EA. Their mineral analyser broke down last week and has just been repaired so they are somewhat backed up on hay analyses. They are working overtime to catch up so any samples that have been sent in the last week or so will take a few extra days to process.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Compensated IR - what is it?

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Hi Connie,
Thanks in advance for the pics and history - they will help us help you more fully. Great that you have an understanding of the theory of diet balancing - sometimes that's the biggest stumbling block. Dr. Kellon offers a course on nutrition and balancing for horses called NRC Plus that might interest you. Check out the particulars here:
www.drkellon.com

Can I sweet talk you into adding your general location and year of joining to your signature, as well as deleting most of the message you are replying to. With the high message volume on the list it helps keep thing running much more smoothly. Appreciate your help with this.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Questions on "veil"

Judy Slayton
 

Hi everyone,

I recently updated Katie's history. She has been doing well on 1.5mg Prascend. Retested a few weeks ago and acth had climbed to 22. Because we had been seeing a few symptoms we decided to increase to 2.mg. My feeling was we needed a .25mg increase but since that is not possible with prascend went up .50mg. It is now day 7 and not going well. She is very dopey, sedated almost like everything is on a 9 second delay and will not eat. She has only eaten approx. 5lbs of hay in 3 days. Just stands at the water bucket and zones out. Each day she is getting worse instead of better. This very UNUSUAL for her. Her prior side effects from Prascend when starting or changing dose is agitation, mild neuro type/spacy and will go off minerals but not hay. It is new hay but she had eaten 2 bales prior to the dose increase and my icey is eating the hay fine with no ill effects so definitely because of Prascend. And she is still thin. Will hardly even eat alfalfa. My secret weapon and her favorite food. She is very sensitive to drugs and a Thanksgiving Day crasher. I do no think she can get thru another bout of laminitis. So, would it help to:

1. divide dose morning and evening?
2. Give her 1 more week on higher dose and if no improvement, cut back down to 1.5mg that she can tolerate? I do not want to use APF as she did not do well on it before.
3. Beg vet to write rx for .25 compounded perg and use prascend for balance of dose?
4. Any suggestions?

Thanks so much. We have made such good progress finally, don't want to screw up now.
Best,
Judy&KatieMojaveDesert
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/photos/album/2107429846/pic/list
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Judy%26KatieSoCal/


Re: Please adivse on what to do.

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Vicky%20S.%20IL%20/
Hi Vicky,
Per her history, she was on pasture, Gro Stong minerals and loose mineralised salt. Is she still on these? If so, need to stop them. Also should have vit E up to 1400iu for her size, plus 1.5 oz iodized table salt.
Her insulin value was 16.88, which gives her a RISQ score of 2.24, and leptin was 5.53. This make her compensated IR as well as PPID so need to address the diet side of things as well as the ACTH for the PPID. Have you had your hay analysed and mineral balanced? Do you have foot photos so that we can assess her trim as she did rotate?
Agree with Lorna and Nancy that is also looks as if she may need a pergolide boost as with the rise her ACTH will be going higher. But that will not solve the entire issue if the IR is not being addressed.
Many people cannot open the works document so if you could put the update up as a pdf it would really help. Thansk.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Which Hay to Buy - Four samples - More info

Nancy C
 

Hi Tamera

Thanks for the hay type education. :-) With me it's just timothy so I appreciate the info.

More info on Fructan can also be found in the group FILES section. Go here

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%203%20%20CORE%20DIET%2C%20ANALYSIS%2C%20NUTRITIONAL%20NEEDS/Basic%20Nutritional%20Needs/>

Look for

FRUCTAN ARTICLE.pdf
drkellon Mar 15, 2013
Brief article on fructans from The Horse's Mouth

You can also follow the Fructan FACTS over the next few days on the ECIR Group Facebook page.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, Jacksonville Oregon, September 27-29, 2013.

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

--- In EquineCushings@..., "palomino.1982" <palomino.1982@...> wrote:

Hi Tamara,


.....But the WSC is extremely high so thinking this is not an option......


Re: Which Hay to Buy - Four samples - More info

palomino.1982 <palomino.1982@...>
 

Hi Tamara,


.....But the WSC is extremely high so thinking this is not an option......
------------------------------------------------------

Sugar is ESC............not WSC.

A post from Dr. Kellon re: ESC and WSC:


" Well, we know that the difference between WSC and ESC is fructan, and we know that the horse's digestive enzymes cannot digest fructan. Fructan cannot contribute to a blood sugar spike, so we use ESC, not WSC.

This group has been using ESC instead of WSC since the change was made at Dairy One. We haven't seen any increase in the number of horses that need hay soaked to be comfortable despite it being below 10% ESC + starch.

The only time fructan is important is when it is there in amounts massive enough to produce acidosis and damage in the large intestine. North American horse hays don't come even remotely close to this."

Hope this helps you in deciding which hay to use to complete the analysis.

Susan
EC Primary Response
San Diego 1.07
________________________________________________


Here are the numbers for those that are not a member of history 7

Love's Russian Rye
WSC - 7.3
ESC - 3.8
starch - 1.2

Cey slough
WSC - 10.2
ESC - 6.8
starch - 1.4

Crested Wheat Grass
WSC - 21.9
ESC - 6.1
starch - .2

Barker's Brome
WSC - 13.2
ESC - 5.1
starch 1.2

LAST YEARS

#1 Brome - they did really well on this one
WSC - 2.8
ESC - 3.3
starch - .2

Ditch hay - could not have free choice
WSC - 10.9
ESC - 5.4
starch - .2

Thank you
Tamara Sk, Canada

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Tamara%2C%20Sask/


Here's to happy donkeys!

Alexandria
 

Hi,

Jannalee suggested that I post what I wrote to her about my donkeys. We adopted them in early April and they came to us having been fed moldy garbage (melons, bread and such) and allowed on grass full-time. They were morbidly obese and foundered with hoof abscesses that presented about a week after we got them.

Thankfully I heard about Jannalee and contacted her, and she helped us get them onto low sugar hay, beet pulp and crushed flax (which we already gave our other animals) and the correct mineral balancers. I'm happy to say they are doing beautifully. They are slowly losing weight, their coats are smooth and healthy looking. Best of all, they are founder free and happy little donkeys.

I'm trying to find ways to get them more exercise, but I'm so very grateful to Jannalee and this forum and all the hard work you do on behalf of our wonderful equine friends.

Thank you and take care,

Alex
s. Oregon
4/2013


Re: When / what conditions to cut hay for lowest starch/sugar result

Nancy C
 

Hi CJ

Sorry, CJ, I'm on the run. Tons of discussion in the archives so I need to direct you there. :-)

The studies I've seen - which are only few - did not really help me, nor did it correspond with what I saw on the ground here. Caveat - only my personal experience over now eleven years of trying to harvest low sugar hay.

If I had a sensitive horse, I'd be looking for the control of a 3 AM cut. You have a lot less control over drying time.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, Jacksonville Oregon, September 27-29, 2013.

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


Re: Which Hay to Buy - Four samples - More info

Tamara
 

Here's a little more info.

The Russian Rye test was a field with Russian wildrye grass, not the grain. It had not been cut for two years so has a lot of dead matter from previous years in it. It also has a fair amount of other species of grass - but I don't know what they are. It was growing in a fairly wet area so maybe some slough grass. It also had a light rain after being cut, but was nice and dry when baled.

Cey slough grass was a field of brome, but I tested the bales that surrounded the slough thinking that grass my be better, but it was higher than I thought too. Also not enough of these on their own to last the winter.

The crested wheat grass is also a grass and not wheat harvested as grain. But the WSC is extremely high so thinking this is not an option.

Barkers brome - not sure if it was actually brome, seems like there were alot of wide blade grasses in it, maybe quack grass. It was just a small piece of land that was surrounding some trees that are in a crop field. This was also left for several years without being cut, so has dead matter in it too. But it tested higher in wsc,esc than others.

As for minerals, I have individual minerals to be able to supplement after analysis.

The ditch hay sample I fed last year was not safe enough to have them on it free choice.

Here are the numbers for those that are not a member of history 7

Love's Russian Rye
WSC - 7.3
ESC - 3.8
starch - 1.2

Cey slough
WSC - 10.2
ESC - 6.8
starch - 1.4

Crested Wheat Grass
WSC - 21.9
ESC - 6.1
starch - .2

Barker's Brome
WSC - 13.2
ESC - 5.1
starch 1.2

LAST YEARS

#1 Brome - they did really well on this one
WSC - 2.8
ESC - 3.3
starch - .2

Ditch hay - could not have free choice
WSC - 10.9
ESC - 5.4
starch - .2

Thank you
Tamara Sk, Canada

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Tamara%2C%20Sask/


Re: Compensated IR - what is it?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Constance" <connie_burke@...> wrote:

Thanks for your info..... Yes, I do understand the balancing of nutrients- I am a Registered Dietitian with a masters in human nutrition so understand the concept - in a human!!
Basic concepts may be similar, but dietary realities are very different. Most horses eat precisely the same meal day after day, 24/7. If a human patient ate a good meal of say salmon, wild rice and spinach but ate that same meal 3 times a day for months or years on end would you expect them to remain healthy? Human nutrition actually relies heavily on a presumption of dietary variety - which may or may not exist. In any case,with horses it definitely is not the case so mineral and vitamin intake is a major issue, as is macronutrient intake (carb, protein, fat), particularly with metabolic challenges.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

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