Date   

Re: Got some questions

KC
 

 Well, just when I think I got something figured out. It ends up I don't. Guess I need to take better notes. Bad thing is there's a lot of information out there but there is a lot of conflicting information too which makes it difficult to keep things straight.
 
I do have question from this. When I'm trying to compare horse feeds, I noticed some companies list sugar and starch followed by the NSC values in their charts. What is the sugar value, ESC or WSC? I'm thinking its WSC and not ESC just because the sugar and starch values add up to the NSC values consistently. If its WSC, I will need to email them to get the ESC value, correct?
 
Thanks
Kathy in Ohio
Sept'13
 


Re: Test score Whiskey/vet wants to add stuff

Elva J Mico
 

On 11/2/2013 5:53 PM, dnlf@... wrote:
Hi Elva, Wouldn't reduce his total intake below 1.5% of ideal body
weight. What is his current weight, what is his total feed amount?
His weight now is right about 1141 and he is 15.1 h. He looks really good at right around 1000. I am giving him 17 lbs. of the balanced hay cubes. I am going to check his weight again tomorrow morning because he looks like he might be over that weight.

As a TWH he is genetically primed to be IR. The leptin number is
confirming this. Leptin is a hormone that signals the body to stop
eating when it is full but leptin resistant individuals do not "hear"
this message so they continue to eat.
Yes, he is TWH and genetically primed for IR. His leptin number is so high compared to Beau's which was 1.31 and that confused me (Beau is also a TWH). But his number being low may be why he is about 100 lbs. underweight?

Metformin, when it works, can lower glucose but Whiskey's glucose is
already in the normal range so wouldn't be advised to use it in this
case.
okay, thanks for that info. So it is given to diabetics....a different problem from IR (which vets also do not understand, i.e. IR and diabetes are different).

You are 100% correct on the Quiessence. Unfortunately, most vets do
not understand what a balanced diet is and that magnesium is only
going to help when it is deficient, which it isn't in this case. It
is not a magic bullet of some kind.
As he is also PPID and the ACTH is above normal range this could be
contributing to the elevated insulin number. If he was mine, I would
raise the pergolide dose to get that ACTH better controlled.
Okay, I did raise his pergolide .25 but I might add another.25 and see how he does.

Exercise, if possible, would be the best thing for Whiskey. It would
open secondary pathways for glucose absorbtion that do not rely on
insulin as a transporter. Plus, it would burn extra calories so help
with the weight loss.
So far, I've not been able to find anyone who can exercise him for me. The last gal I had I caught her cantering which is a no, no for Whiskey because of his arthritis. And he really pays the days following hard exercise. I have had to give him bute sometimes because his legs will hurt so bad he will get himself down and then can't get up. I am going to keep looking for someone who will ride him at a walk for about an hour or more 3 to 4 times a week.

Thanks so much for your response Lavina.

Elva and Angel Satin
in New Mexico/2004

--
Elva
I was a dancer. One night at a gypsy camp, I drank a potion meant for
another and lost my heart to a horse named Satin.


feeding Stabul 1 plus

millionairess1989
 

Is there a maximum amount per day of Stabul 1 plus that can be fed to a PPID/IR horse? The website says 0.5 to 2 pounds per 100 pounds body weight, so that would be 4.25-17 pounds for Mill. Obviously I would not want to feed the higher amount. She is underweight heading into winter on hay, ODTBC and beet pulp, so I am excited about it being available at Tractor Supply.

Jennifer & Mill in TN
Jan 2011
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Millionairess


Re: Test score Whiskey/vet wants to add stuff

dnlf@...
 

Hi Elva,

  Wouldn't reduce his total intake below 1.5% of ideal body weight. What is his current weight, what is his total feed amount?


  As a TWH he is genetically primed to be IR. The leptin number is confirming this. Leptin is a hormone that signals the body to stop eating when it is full but leptin resistant individuals do not "hear" this message so they continue to eat.


  Metformin, when it works, can lower glucose but Whiskey's glucose is already in the normal range so wouldn't be advised to use it in this case. 


You are 100% correct on the Quiessence. Unfortunately, most vets do not understand what a balanced diet is and that magnesium is only going to help when it is deficient, which it isn't in this case. It is not a magic bullet of some kind.


  As he is also PPID and the ACTH is above normal range this could be contributing to the elevated insulin number. If he was mine, I would raise the pergolide dose to get that ACTH better controlled.


  Exercise, if possible, would be the best thing for Whiskey. It would open secondary pathways for glucose absorbtion that do not rely on insulin as a transporter. Plus, it would burn extra calories so help with the weight loss.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




Whiskey
Glucose 93 (71-113)
Insulin 49.64 (10-40)
ACTH 44.7 (9-35)
Leptin 12.21 (1-4)



Test score Whiskey/vet wants to add stuff

Elva J Mico
 

My vet wants me to add Quiessence and metformin to Whiskey. He is about 100 lbs. overweight plus reduce his hay cubes to 16 lbs. daily. I'm not sure what these three things will do. I don't mind reducing his cubes by one pound, I don't see what good Quiessence will do. His cubes are already balanced and I have already been advised not to give him metformin but I'm not sure why. I would like to respond to my vet, can anyone help? I don't think his numbers are that bad except for the leptin and I have no idea what the leptin numbers indicate.

Whiskey
Glucose 93 (71-113)
Insulin 49.64 (10-40)
ACTH 44.7 (9-35)
Leptin 12.21 (1-4)


Elva and angel Satin
Albuq., NM 2004


Re: Himalayan Salt Intake

dnlf@...
 

Hi Deb,
  When you have a moment, have a read on our educational website:

                       www.ecirhorse.org

  It's a treasure trove of information on IR and PPID that should help answer many of your questions. Filling out a case history for Rowan will also steer you in the right direction as this focuses your attention on all the details that you need to pay attention to in order to assess how Rowan is doing.

  Your boarding situation sounds great for all of you - nice to have someone who cares and will work with you taking care of your boy.

  Would you take a moment before hitting send to delete most of the message you are replying to as this removes the reams of unnecessary repeat text that buries your new info. We realize this may be difficult with Yahoo's new Neo format obscuring even the simplest of functions but appreciate it if you would try.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team




Re: Himalayan Salt Intake

Deborah Larkins
 

 I don't mind the extra questions, being new to this, it is helpful!


He was not tested for IR, just for PPID.  Our test results have just come back and I don't yet have them in paper form.  I am waiting on those from the vet so that I can upload them.  


My vet has contacted an expert at UGA to see if we should medicate at our current ACTH level.  We did the blood test at the time of year when the levels elevate naturally, from what I was told.  Feel free to let me know if this info was not accurate!  As you know it's hard to find data on the internet when there is tons of it!  You don't know what is true and what is not.  


His hay has not been analyzed.  I'll talk to the person who keeps my horse for me and see what her thoughts are.  She would probably be happy to go in with m for the test, she is very observant about the nutritional need of her horse and mine.


As of now, we are on Triple Crown Complete, but we are starting the process this weekend to move both boys to Triple Crown Senior.  They both also get Legends Omega as a supplement.  Rowan gets 3 lbs of feed a day, and 1 lb of the Omega.  He is feed grain twice a day.  


We have a variety of hay.  When they are out, currently in a sacrifice area because we just seeded winter grass, they get a fescue hay.  It is feed in a slow feeder hay box that was built by the farm owners husband.  It slows them WAY down, we love it.  In the stall they get a Timothy in their slow hay feeders.  We weigh the hay bags, and Rowan gets 9-10 lbs in his bag.  Occasionally they get a flake of alfalfa, this is a treat, not something that happens on a regular basis.  With the slow hay feeder the hay is lasting most of the night.  And in the pasture in the box, it is lasting all day.  Luckily, he is now at a friend's barn and either she or her husband work from home most days, so they go to the barn several times during the day to check on hay, if the boys have to be in because of weather.  So he has hay all day.   


After work, he was getting a beet pulp/alfalfa/Apple A Day mixture as a snack.  He is food motivated.  I have not done this in a while, until I know what he can safely have.  This was more of an award, as he has already been a big drinker, so I wasn't concerned about his fluid intact.  Actually he has always had two water buckets, one is for his water, and the other for playing!  What's a water bucket if you don't get to dunk your head in it and dribble it down the wall?  


The grass that he will go back in the next few weeks is a fescue/winter rye mix.  I do have a grazing muzzle for him.  We have tried it on, but not used it, so that should be a video moment!  


I don't add any additional salt to his grain, other then what is the grain we use.  The salt block was a Himalayan.  We removed it last night.  


I am going to email my vet today, and see if I can stop by this week and get his blood work so that I can get that for you guys to see.  


Oh, and I have him Pentason for his joints.  


I won't get him a Likit, glad I checked back before I left the house!  :-)


He is not yet on Pergolide.  Still waiting on word back from UGA to see what they think.    


Thanks

Deb

GA

October 2013



---In EquineCushings@..., <equinecushings@...> wrote:

 Message sent itself before I was finished. Here is the link to ECHistory7:


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/2-INSTRUCTIONS%20AND%20CH%20TEMPLATE


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





---In EquineCushings@..., <equinecushings@...> wrote:

My gelding has recently started blowing through salt blocks!  I moved him to a new barn in August, he is getting superior care.  He does spend a bit more time in his stall when it is very rainy or wet.  He gets thrush easily, so this is helping our feet.  But I wonder if he is getting a bit bored and going through his salt block.  

In his stall he has a nibble net to slow his hay intake down.  

We have removed the salt block, I am considering putting in a Likit for boredom.  

Is there a danger in too much salt?  He has access to clean water 24/7.  He has had an increase in urine production, but considered that this is part of his Cushings.  However, his ACTH level is 57.9, which I understand is elevated but not high for Cushings.  

Sorry, to be wordy, my question is can he get too much salt through boredom licking?  Or do I need to worry that we have an issue that I need to test for and his body is craving salt?  

Thanks,
Deb
Georgia
October 2013


Re: Sweating

dnlf@...
 

Hi Caryn,
  Agree completely with everything Mandy said. At only two months out from a "major founder" your boy should NOT be working under saddle at all or on the lunge line.

  Do you have a case history posted for your boy? If not, we really need you to fill one out on our sister site ECHistory7. Also, as he has foundered before, trim is going to be a huge factor in how long it will be before he can safely start doing more work. Encourage you to post pics of his feet, and any xrays you have, in the photos section of ECHistory7 so the hoof gurus can help you make sure the trim is optimal for healing.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <equinecushings@...> wrote:

HI! I have a cushings, previous founder, IR horse who had a major founder episode on August 27, he has been on Pergolide (1 tablet) once a day for two months and has been great and had great results in his updated blood test. He has gone back to light work (walking under saddle) and light trotting on a line for a few minutes and has been very wild and very sound. 

However, two days ago he was super crazy on the line and took off galloping and bucking and I am wondering if he may have overdone it. He was sound the next day, as well as today but he is walking a bit guarded and is not as peppy. Would it be possible, even two months later in November that his Pergolide dosing is not correct? He is also sweating (the last two days) while he eats his dinner soaked hay. No changes in feed, no pulse changes, just walking more guarded in his paddock and the sweating. I am trying to rule out if his ATCH levels can change this time of year (novemeber) and his Pergolide may not be correct (needs more), or if he overdid his workout on the line which made him footsore and the sweating is just weather related since he does have a winter coat and its 51 degrees out while eating. Any opinions, or personal experience would be appreciated!

Caryn 
Spet 2013
Washington State


Re: Himalayan Salt Intake

dnlf@...
 

 Message sent itself before I was finished. Here is the link to ECHistory7:


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/2-INSTRUCTIONS%20AND%20CH%20TEMPLATE


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





---In EquineCushings@..., <equinecushings@...> wrote:

My gelding has recently started blowing through salt blocks!  I moved him to a new barn in August, he is getting superior care.  He does spend a bit more time in his stall when it is very rainy or wet.  He gets thrush easily, so this is helping our feet.  But I wonder if he is getting a bit bored and going through his salt block.  

In his stall he has a nibble net to slow his hay intake down.  

We have removed the salt block, I am considering putting in a Likit for boredom.  

Is there a danger in too much salt?  He has access to clean water 24/7.  He has had an increase in urine production, but considered that this is part of his Cushings.  However, his ACTH level is 57.9, which I understand is elevated but not high for Cushings.  

Sorry, to be wordy, my question is can he get too much salt through boredom licking?  Or do I need to worry that we have an issue that I need to test for and his body is craving salt?  

Thanks,
Deb
Georgia
October 2013


Re: Himalayan Salt Intake

dnlf@...
 

Hi Deb,
  Do you have a case history posted for your boy? If so, would you please include the link to it. If not, would you please fill one out on our sister list ECHistory7. This gives us much-needed info to be able to answer your questions more completely.

  The extra urination can be a sign of uncontrolled PPID (Cushings) and/or IR. Was your boy tested for IR as well as PPID? Is he on pergolide? An ACTH of 57.9 in a known PPID horse is too high and indicates lack of control of the disease.

  Does he have salt added to his feed as well as the salt block? How much salt is he consuming from the block? Is this a white salt block or? Is his hay analyzed with the minerals balanced to the analysis? Unless he is consuming a 1-2lb white block per day the salt licking isn't dangerous if he has water access 24/7. Any other type of salt block is not recommended at all. The excessive salt licking could be from boredom if he is spending more time confined in his stall than he was previously used to. Good that he has a slow hay feeder in his stall - does his hay last most of the day or is he finishing it and having long periods with nothing to do? Would not recommend a Likit as they are basically a block of glucose (sugar) for the horse to consume and would be dangerous for an IR horse.

  Sorry, more questions than answers for you right now.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

 


Re: Stabul 1 can be ordered at Tractor Supply

ferne fedeli
 



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 3:51 PM, <lcknie@...> wrote:
  Is there anyone nearby who could share a shipment with you?
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011

I don't know.  Anyone in Sonoma, Lake or Mendocino counties that would be interested?

Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010 


Re: Vitamin E source

ferne fedeli
 

Oh my goodness!  I just ordered some stuff and never even noticed Vit. E capsules.  I'll check out the prices and compare with Naturemade at Costco.  Joan's prices are usually pretty good.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 2:43 PM, <PapBallou@...> wrote:
 

I was just getting my winter stash of AAKG ordered, and noticed that Mybesthorse now carries vitamin E with oil capsules as well as powdered vitamin E.  Maybe this was posted before - sorry if duplicating, but this was good news to me.


Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004



Himalayan Salt Intake

Deborah Larkins
 

My gelding has recently started blowing through salt blocks!  I moved him to a new barn in August, he is getting superior care.  He does spend a bit more time in his stall when it is very rainy or wet.  He gets thrush easily, so this is helping our feet.  But I wonder if he is getting a bit bored and going through his salt block.  


In his stall he has a nibble net to slow his hay intake down.  

We have removed the salt block, I am considering putting in a Likit for boredom.  

Is there a danger in too much salt?  He has access to clean water 24/7.  He has had an increase in urine production, but considered that this is part of his Cushings.  However, his ACTH level is 57.9, which I understand is elevated but not high for Cushings.  

Sorry, to be wordy, my question is can he get too much salt through boredom licking?  Or do I need to worry that we have an issue that I need to test for and his body is craving salt?  

Thanks,
Deb
Georgia
October 2013


Re: how to feed hay in cold weather

Nancy C
 

Hi Amanda

I did soak my 9% ESC  hay all last winter in well below zero weather and 40 mph winds. 9% can be too high for may horses. Used an igloo cooler on wheels.  Once I had the set up I just got into the routine.  Having water proof gloves and a good place to dump the water that turns in to ice was essential.

Slowing down hay consumption can be done efficiently with slow feeder nets/bags.

Tons of discussion on ECHorsekeeping.  Also see  http://paddockparadise.wikifoundry.com/

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

www.ECIRhorse.org

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


Re: Sweating

Mandy Woods
 

Caryn,
 
PPID is a progressive condition.  We are in the seasonal rise now.  His ACTH could still be climbing or you never reached the correct amount of pergolide to control his ACTH value.   There is no exact date when the seasonal rise begins to drop off as each horse reacts in his own way to the rise.  The only way to know is to test.  Sweating in odd places is a symptom of uncontrolled PPID.  It is also a symptom of pain.
 
Your boy should not be in work yet.  IF he ‘’major foundered’’ in August he should still be on stall/dry paddock rest and in rehab boots and pads.  IT takes  9 months to a YEAR to grow out a hoof.  Even then you may need to wait for two or three hoof growths to see if the attachment of the laminae to the coffin bone is tight.     I would not be putting any weight on his back.  Front feet carry more weight of the rider/tack.  He should be hand walked quietly  in straight lines with very large half circles to turn around.  He should not be lunged.  He should not be trotting. 
 
I would test his ACTH to see if he needs more pergolide.   Give him the time off he needs to heal. Are his minerals balanced to his hay?
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 


Sweating

Caryn Darmer
 

HI! I have a cushings, previous founder, IR horse who had a major founder episode on August 27, he has been on Pergolide (1 tablet) once a day for two months and has been great and had great results in his updated blood test. He has gone back to light work (walking under saddle) and light trotting on a line for a few minutes and has been very wild and very sound. 

However, two days ago he was super crazy on the line and took off galloping and bucking and I am wondering if he may have overdone it. He was sound the next day, as well as today but he is walking a bit guarded and is not as peppy. Would it be possible, even two months later in November that his Pergolide dosing is not correct? He is also sweating (the last two days) while he eats his dinner soaked hay. No changes in feed, no pulse changes, just walking more guarded in his paddock and the sweating. I am trying to rule out if his ATCH levels can change this time of year (novemeber) and his Pergolide may not be correct (needs more), or if he overdid his workout on the line which made him footsore and the sweating is just weather related since he does have a winter coat and its 51 degrees out while eating. Any opinions, or personal experience would be appreciated!


Caryn 
Spet 2013
Washington State


Re: High Protein

jgpigger
 

 Hi Kathleen


>Hays that test with unusually high protein - in the mid to upper teens for crude protein - might be worth testing for nitrates if the hay is known to be fertilized and nitrate accumulation can be a problem for pregnant mares.


I asked Dr. K about the protein in grass hay on her e-mag group but never got an answer, so I am wondering if you knew.


The hay that I was wondering about is grass hay, 12% protein (I have tested alot of hay around my area and have never seen grass hay higher than 6.5%) so I was wondering how this hay could be so high.


Do you think its the nitrates? that would make this hay more higher than the others? thanks candy 2013 MI



---In equinecushings@..., <katmando@...> wrote:

I wouldn't consider it dangerous - definitely too strong a word. First, it depends on what you're feeding. If you're feeding a hay with low protein, you may need to supplement - some use dried split peas for example - great source of protein and has some crunch. 


Hays that test with unusually high protein - in the mid to upper teens for crude protein - might be worth testing for nitrates if the hay is known to be fertilized and nitrate accumulation can be a problem for pregnant mares. 


Bottom line, you should know the protein content of your forage (6.3% in January 2013?) and then factor in your TC 30. If you're still using that hay, then the TC 30% should be fine.


Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director, ECIR, Inc.

Missouri - Dec 2005






There was recently a post that said high protein is dangerous to IR horses.  I've recently had to switch to TC 30%.  Can someone tell me why high protein is dangerous?


Debbie, Cooper, Butterscotch and Beau
CT, October 2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Cooper%20and%20Debbie/


how to feed hay in cold weather

goldencowgirl2468@...
 

I am wondering what others do for their hay feeding in cold weather. Currently I am soaking my hay, 2 horses, 18lbs each, feeding them about 6 different portions throughout the day. I live in Northern Wisconsin, so very soon my hay soaking season is going to come to an end. My ESC level on my hay sample was 9.0 so I don't necessarily have to soak but they tend to eat it slower if I do it this way. I need some advice on how to feed them so they won't gobble down their dry hay and someway to eliminate me from having to go out there 6+ times a day to feed when it gets 22below here. Thank U

 

Amanda, TerraCotta, Orianna

Wisconsin

April 2013


Re: Stabul 1 can be ordered at Tractor Supply

gypsylassie
 

 

---In EquineCushings@..., <equinecushings@...> wrote:

Do you have any idea about the shelf life of Stabul 1???  If I ordered 10 bags, it would be lasting me for 3-4 months and I'm worried that it might get bugs in it by then...  Guess I should call them and ask.  
>>

Hi Ferne, Valletta's post mentions 8 mnths, but that Randy said the flavoring could lose strength before that.  So may depend on how "picky" each horse is.  Is there anyone nearby who could share a shipment with you?
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Hold off on Move-Ease?

Nancy C
 

Hi Laura

You can always check with the company, but no, nothing in Movease has been reported to cause stomach upset.

 

It's not like NSAIDs typically used for arthritis.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

www.ECIRhorse.org

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


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