Date   

Re: Need advice with laminits

PapBallou@...
 

 Brittany -


To be fair, I posted to you right after your post on EC Hoof.  You just now put up some photos.  It's a holiday weekend as well.  I suspect the list will be busier once everyone is back from holiday.


Linda

EC Primary Response

West Coast

May 2004



---In EquineCushings@..., <ignatowski90@...> wrote:

Hi everyone I need some advice. I posted on the ec hoof but have not gotten but one response. Here is the story sorry for how long it is. I went out of town in late Sept and had someone do chores for me who I thought I could trust to do everything as I told them to do. When I got home I discovered she had fed my 13 year old Quarter horse and yearling 50lbs of grain in 2 days! A few weeks later I noticed my Mare was kind of stiff and I figured maybe she just hurt her self in the pasture and would be fine in a few days. The vet was out that next week to do teeth so I asked her to take a look. She thought it could be a abscess since she was lame on only the right front she did have heat in the hoof and pulses. We put her in a 25x25 corral and gave bute for 5 days. I was wrapping the hoof with a poultice pad. After a week I had them back out and she was now lame on both front feet with heat and pulses. It was hard for me to tell she was lame but the vet noticed one hoof was lame at the walk and the other on the trot. We did xrays that showed a 2 degree rotation on both feet he said that is very mild and could even be the machine being off. We did bute for 10 days and then had her trimmed her toes were very long. Then did bute for another 3 days. She was trimmed over a week ago and I have now moved her back out to the pasture with the yearling since she could hardly walk in the corral it was so rooted up and frozen. vet thought that was ok. The pasture has no grass pretty much all sand and weeds. The vet does not believe she is IR and that this was caused from the over feeding. I am still planning on trying to stay away from sweets or any grain and the hay we have is tested safe for out IR pony. She still seems a little off when you turn her in a tight circle on one side. But no heat besides what is coming off for body heat. I guess I am wondering how long is takes for them to be 100% again and what I can do now and in the future. I am terrified since I could hardly tell anything was wrong in the first place.  Any advice would be appreciated I feel so guilty I went out of town. Thanks Brittany and Dream

 

WI

December 2012


Re: Wow what a difference lysine makes!

Nancy C
 

Hi Torri


Try this


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/178640 


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/175176

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/167310

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/123213

Try  stroll through the NRC as well, the chapter on Protein and amino acids. It is essential, in that it needs to be in the diet.  Lysine is very often not sufficient.   n order to get best results you need to know hat's in your hay and balance.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11653&page=54

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

www.ECIRhorse.org

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Re: Wow what a difference lysine makes!

don kraft <donaldgkraft@...>
 

I just added Ca. Trace Plus to feed, it contains 10 k of lysine + 3.5 k of Methionine, both amino acids are very hard to come by in all foods, they are the main building blocks for repair. My horse has severe abscesses on 3 feet, very little sole, hope this helps. Don


On Sunday, December 1, 2013 2:09 PM, "mejrockft@..." wrote:
 
 
I am trying to find links on lysine usage but having trouble navigating the messges in this new yahoo groups format.
 
Torri & Surprise
Milwaukee WI
March 2007
 
 
---In EquineCushings@..., wrote:

Jazzi is almost back to her normal self after several weeks of added lysine.  She was so depressed before, I thought I was going to lose her.  Her top line was gone and she was so listless.  Not now!  I had a huge fire breathing dragon under me yesterday that wanted to be an endurance horse again!  So thankful for all the help from this  group; your wisdom and knowledge make all the difference.
 Now I need to decrease the alfalfa and find some teff that needs no soaking as we have a record low temperatures on the way.  Many thanks!
Nancy and Jazzi
San Diego County
March 2013



Re: Wow what a difference lysine makes!

mejrockft
 

 


Need advice with laminits

ignatowski90@...
 

Hi everyone I need some advice. I posted on the ec hoof but have not gotten but one response. Here is the story sorry for how long it is. I went out of town in late Sept and had someone do chores for me who I thought I could trust to do everything as I told them to do. When I got home I discovered she had fed my 13 year old Quarter horse and yearling 50lbs of grain in 2 days! A few weeks later I noticed my Mare was kind of stiff and I figured maybe she just hurt her self in the pasture and would be fine in a few days. The vet was out that next week to do teeth so I asked her to take a look. She thought it could be a abscess since she was lame on only the right front she did have heat in the hoof and pulses. We put her in a 25x25 corral and gave bute for 5 days. I was wrapping the hoof with a poultice pad. After a week I had them back out and she was now lame on both front feet with heat and pulses. It was hard for me to tell she was lame but the vet noticed one hoof was lame at the walk and the other on the trot. We did xrays that showed a 2 degree rotation on both feet he said that is very mild and could even be the machine being off. We did bute for 10 days and then had her trimmed her toes were very long. Then did bute for another 3 days. She was trimmed over a week ago and I have now moved her back out to the pasture with the yearling since she could hardly walk in the corral it was so rooted up and frozen. vet thought that was ok. The pasture has no grass pretty much all sand and weeds. The vet does not believe she is IR and that this was caused from the over feeding. I am still planning on trying to stay away from sweets or any grain and the hay we have is tested safe for out IR pony. She still seems a little off when you turn her in a tight circle on one side. But no heat besides what is coming off for body heat. I guess I am wondering how long is takes for them to be 100% again and what I can do now and in the future. I am terrified since I could hardly tell anything was wrong in the first place.  Any advice would be appreciated I feel so guilty I went out of town. Thanks Brittany and Dream

 

WI

December 2012


Devil's Claw: powder vs. extract

ridinfool246
 

Trying to figure out the most economical method of feeding devil's claw for arthritis, and am wondering how to compare the dosage of devil's claw in products when one uses powder and one uses extract?

My apologies if this subject is covered somewhere else, but I'm having difficulty using the search mode on the new yahoo site...

Linda, FL
2006


Re: cushings disease rear end and legs messy poo daily

Carol Jacoby
 

 

Hi Horseloverx,

I am not one of the forum experts but I am sure one will chime in to help you.  
I don't believe the TC of any variety is safe for your horse. I would say yes to the low fiber hay like Timothy, though.  Biosponge did nothing to help my horse - may help yours.  If you want to look at my horse's history, you will see that he had the exact problem for years - this forum helped me find the answers, along with my trimmer and an excellent team of vets at TX Equine Hospital in Bryan.. My horse is also barefoot with a balanced trim every 4 weeks. He has low grade laminitis now but was much worse a year ago this past June when his shoes were pulled from overgrown hooves. He went lame on both front hooves and abscessed on another. I purchased hoof boots to keep him comfortable so that he could walk and exercise.  He is much healthier without shoes and continues to progress while he eats free choice low fiber hay, loose white salt, and 2 oz. ground flax seeds and  probiotic..  But his hay has to be low fiber.  My horse is still recovering from injuries he incurred while at a trainer's - when horse shoes were left on for too long - and before I knew the value of going barefoot, but my horse continues to improve with his former g.i. problems as I am receiving help from the great folks on this forum who have been gracious to answer all of my questions and guide me in the right direction.  I know they will have answers for you, as well.

 Carol, Aristotle in TX
August 2013



Re: cushings disease rear end and legs messy poo daily

dnlf@...
 

Hi Horselover,

Welcome to the list. Would you please sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. With over 11,000 members it helps the volunteers keep track of who's who. In order to help you better we need some more information about your girl. Would you please fill out a case history for her on our sister site ECHistory8 here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files


You will need to join but it will only take a moment. Then open the Instructions and CH Template file and follow the directions. We follow a protocol of DDT/E here, which is just shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.


DIAGNOSIS: Is thru blood work. We recommend an ACTH test for PPID and Insulin, Glucose and Leptin to test for IR. These should be pulled from a NON-Fasting horse and sent to Cornell. You mention that your girl has been diagnosed with PPID (Cushings) - how was this done and how long ago? Is she on meds to control this? PPID doesn't normally cause diarrhea but IR might. This is a different issue than PPID but many vets confuse the two.


How long has the loose stool been an issue? How about the weight loss? Uncontrolled PPID will lead to muscle wasting that cannot be cured thru added feeds. Untreated IR can manifest as weight loss because the body cannot convert the excess sugars into useable fuel so starts to use muscle as fuel. Until you have a proper diagnosis, switching feeds willy-nilly is probably not going to be helpful.


DIET: Low sugar/starch/fat, forage-based with minerals balanced to the hay analysis. Recommend you send a sample of your hay to Equi-Ananlytical to have the Trainer #603  test package done. Then have your mineral supplement made based on the results. In the meantime, would follow the emergency diet you were sent when you joined. Soak all hay before feeding - either 1 hour in cold or 1/2 hour in hot water. Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is a good way to add safe calories and provides a carrier for the emergency diet additions of vit E gelcaps with oil in them, magnesium oxide, iodized table salt and ground flax. No apples, carrots, pasture, treats.


TRIM: Toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule tightly hugs and supports the coffin bone. With a significant rotation you need to get a realigning trim on board so that the hoof wall can regrow firmly reattached to the coffin bone. Please post pics of your girl's feet in the photos section of EC History 8 and the hoof gurus can help you make sure her trim is optimized. A 6 week trim/shoeing schedule after a major rotation can be much too long an interval to get proper realignment in place. Clean the foot well, take pics from the side, front, back (on clear, level ground or board) and sole with the camera at ground level.


EXERCISE: Best IR buster there is but never force a sore horse to move.


When you have a moment have a read on our educational website:


http://ecirhorse.org/


Although PPID is a progressive disease it is manageable. We have many horses here who are healthy, happy and working into their late twenties and thirties. At 15 yo, your girl is still quite young and should have many more years of quality life left.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team






Re: Mini Donkey ACTH and extra pergolide

dnlf@...
 

Barbara,


I'm so sorry to hear of your loss of Berry. You were a good horse mom to him. Thanks for thinking of others at this difficult time.


Sounds like Mandy may be early PPID and therefore is responding well to lower doses of the perg. It is such an individual situation with this disease.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





A wee reminder about iGive! Special offer available until Monday

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

We are garnering donations for ECIR from people, without them having to spend a penny! Thanks to all who have joined iGive, and listed Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group as your cause of choice.

And, thank you to all of you who have helped the ECIR Group Inc. nonprofit grow by supporting or attending the NO Laminitis! Conference, the many donations we have received, or by becoming a donating shopper at iGive.com.

iGive is extending a Holiday campaign to help causes like ECIR Group by giving us an *extra* $5.00 for every new member who tries the iGive button, even without shopping.

If you do shop, the iGive button is a really easy way to make sure that a portion of your purchase at over 1000 stores goes to the ECIR Group. The button makes sure your purchases count, even if you forget.

Now is the moment for maximum help for the ECIR Group Inc. Imagine several 1000 members joining iGive, installing the button and sending an extra $5.00 even without shopping.

YOU MUST USE THIS SPECIAL LINK and join iGive before Cyber Monday, December 2: http://iGive.com/welcome/warmwelcome.cfm?c=65676&m=807818

You do not need to shop if you use the above link, but every time you do shop, you will send even more support to the ECIR Group Inc.

The ECIR Group Directors are working hard to plan upcoming projects in the quest to prevent laminitis. Many, many thanks for your help!


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/


Re: heredity question

K. Schouwenburg <k.schouwenburg@...>
 


Op 1 dec. 2013, om 15:51 heeft drkellon@... het volgende geschreven:

It hasn't been studied in all breeds but in the mixed breed pony herd it was inherited as a dominant trait.

Thank you.
Not going to take a risk there then.
No baby for my horse.

Groet,
Karin Schouwenburg
________________________________
Saying a camera takes nice pictures is like saying a guitar plays nice melodies




Re: heredity question

Bonnie
 

Thank you for that information, Dr Kellon. I wish I had blood test records for my Welsh pony"s early years. 


He was foaled in 1998, and gelded in 2006, his eighth year. He had been retired from showing and breeding because of a very large fallen crest ( over three inches thick). I got him six months after gelding. At that time he was ravenously hungry, with fat pads. By the time I discovered this group and things turned around, he had become obese. His weight was 820 pounds: now it is 650. He was diagnosed IR by bloodwork in 2008, and PPID last year..


Could the onset of the IR symptoms have been driven by PPID earlier than age 8? 


You mention the study was on mixed breed ponies. I have looked at photos of my pony's male ancestors and they too had the over-large crest. Nature or nurture...hmmm...


Is the prognosis for PPID cases that start early more grim than for horses that develop the disease in their teens? This gelding is up to 12 mg pergolide already, due to retest early in the new year.


Thank you,


Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08

Lad





---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote:

---In EquineCushings@..., <bon.ivey@...> wrote:

Can you tell us more about stallions not being clinically affected by IR?

========

Only that it was observed mares but not stallions were affected in the field study and that has certainly been our observation here in thousands of cases. We don't see IR and laminitis in intact males unless there is PPID.


Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


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ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

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Wow what a difference lysine makes!

 

Jazzi is almost back to her normal self after several weeks of added lysine.  She was so depressed before, I thought I was going to lose her.  Her top line was gone and she was so listless.  Not now!  I had a huge fire breathing dragon under me yesterday that wanted to be an endurance horse again!  So thankful for all the help from this  group; your wisdom and knowledge make all the difference.
 Now I need to decrease the alfalfa and find some teff that needs no soaking as we have a record low temperatures on the way.  Many thanks!

Nancy and Jazzi

San Diego County

March 2013

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Nancy%20Reed/


Re: What's the Difference?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 All pergolide dosing recommendations refer to mg of pergolide mesylate. Doses described in the literature and on drug packaging refers to pergolide mesylate. For example,  1 tablet of Prascend has 1 mg of pergolide mesylate, not 1 mg of pergolide as pergolide mesylate. A prescription for 1 mg of pergolide is for 1 mg of pergolide mesylate.



Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



---In equinecushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote:

---In EquineCushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote:

My vet also told me that Precision was using the base of pure Pergolide and Pet Health uses Pergolide Mesylate.  I just received my new script from Pet Health and it was for 4.6 mgs.


--------------

All pergolide is pergolide mesylate. There is no such thing as pure pergolide. You have increased his dose by just over 1 mg so yes,the reaction is probably to the drug.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: heredity question

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <bon.ivey@...> wrote:

Can you tell us more about stallions not being clinically affected by IR?

========

Only that it was observed mares but not stallions were affected in the field study and that has certainly been our observation here in thousands of cases. We don't see IR and laminitis in intact males unless there is PPID.


Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: What's the Difference?

Lorna Cane
 

 Hi Laura,



>. Could my vet have inadvertently done the calculation and sent it that way? 


Only your vet knows this answer.


>  My vet said that the Pergolide from Precision was pure Pergolide, did they tell him that?


Again,sorry,but you need to ask your vet that question.


> I called the laboratory that makes Pergolide for sale worldwide and they told me that EVERYONE gets Pergolide mesylate and there is no pure Pergolide.


Bingo.

I think Dr. K. already told us that :)




Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


---In equinecushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote:

My vet's office told me that he wrote the script for 3.5 mgs. of Pergolide.  However, they also said that he spent 30 minutes trying to figure out a calculation.  What's up with that?  Pabatsa's ACTH is within the normal limit so there was no discussion of raising the amount past 3.5 mgs.


Laura, CA

1/2012 


Re: What's the Difference?

Lorna Cane
 

HI Kathy,


I can't speak for what the others have said/done.Sorry.


Maybe we'll hear from Dr. Kellon.She has a way of sorting things out.:)


Print size was fine.You never know with Yahoo's brilliant(NOT) new format.


 Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




---In equinecushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote:

---In EquineCushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote:

My vet also told me that Precision was using the base of pure Pergolide and Pet Health uses Pergolide Mesylate.  I just received my new script from Pet Health and it was for 4.6 mgs.


--------------

All pergolide is pergolide mesylate. There is no such thing as pure pergolide. You have increased his dose by just over 1 mg so yes,the reaction is probably to the drug.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: heredity question

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <k.schouwenburg@...> wrote:
It is or isn't inherited? Is IR a dominant gene?

=========

It hasn't been studied in all breeds but in the mixed breed pony herd it was inherited as a dominant trait.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001





Re: What's the Difference?

lauramollrich
 

Hi Lorna,


Yes, I did see Dr. Kellon's reply however if you read Leigh's post it makes sense as to what happened with Pabatsa's script.  They converted, some how, the script from 3.5 mgs. to 4.6 mgs. Could my vet have inadvertently done the calculation and sent it that way?  His office told me they sent it to Pet Health as 3.5 mgs.  My vet said that the Pergolide from Precision was pure Pergolide, did they tell him that?  It seems I do remember them telling me that they use the Pergolide base--who knows at this point!  I believe Dr. Kellon more than the rest of them though.  I called the laboratory that makes Pergolide for sale worldwide and they told me that EVERYONE gets Pergolide mesylate and there is no pure Pergolide.


Laura, CA

1/2012


I have never seen a 4.6 mg, dosage though. 

---In equinecushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote:

Hi Lorna,


I am really  confused about the pergolide mesylate  thread. 


Below is Leigh's post:  


Pergolide Mesylate(PM) is the chemical compound that is used to create our compounded products and Prascend.  When you look at PM, it is the salt of pergolide.  The ratio of pergolide to pergolide mesylate is 1.0/1.31  Therefore, if you want 1 mg of pure pergolide you need to make that capsule with 1.31mg of pergolide mesylate.  If you take the amount they quoted to you of 4.6mgPM and divide it by 1.31mg PM, it will give you ~ 3.5mgs pure pergolide. I hope that kind of simplified it???  It is just understanding the numbers and their relationship.  When I talk to the pharmacists at Pet Health, I have to know what my vet wants our clients to have in end product (pure pergolide).  When that is clear, the pharmacists do their calculations to create the end product.



Is Dr. Kellon's response saying that the pharmacists do not need to do a calculation to create an *end dosage* or in another version of the question is that a prescription for pergolide is a prescription for pergolide myselate and their is no calculation for elemental pergolide?  


Did Laura's vet up Pabasta's pergolide dosage based on symptoms or based on the pharmacy's calculations?


Sorry for the large print I have no idea how to change it.....


Thank you,


Kathy Brinkerhoff


10/12 *confused* SE/WI 




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