Date   

Re: Pergolide contributing to Osteoporosis?

bizzibizzigirl
 

Hi Nancy


Thank you for your reply.  My very experienced and highly regarded trimmer actually raised it with me the other day.  Not sure of his source but it is quite possible he could be thinking of Dr Bowker's information.


I'll ask him as to the source of the information and will join the ECHoof group too and read the information you've provided.  


Our pony's pedal bones have deteriorated over the last six months with some ski tipping and density loss, despite management for PPID and IR.  IR well under control but he had a setback with footsoreness reappearing about one month into spring onset.  Most likely my silly oversight for allowing overnight grass time for a couple of weeks too long.  He'd been going very well since acute episode and diagnosis of PPID/IR in February this year and had been back out on grass over winter months here (we don't have really cold winters - I'm not too far from Melbourne, Australia) - going forward in recovery all the way through until early Oct.  Was clipped mid Sept and grew back about half a winter coat by end Oct.  I've taken him to my trimmer's for a month now so I can have a break and to break the cycle; he has rehabilitated many laminitics here.


Thanks again

Lisa



Re: Pergolide contributing to Osteoporosis?

Nancy C
 

Hi Lisa


Is there a source of this report?  Article, science, marketing campaign or barn talk?


Unless Dr Kellon has new info, we've had no report of direct line from pergolide to osteoporosis over the last 14 years. 


Dr Bowker does indicate in his lectures that IR can contribute to pedal bone osteoporosis. 


He does not reference the IR/osteo in this article but you can read about osteoporotic coffin bones in our ECHoof files


Go to


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/files


Look for


Bowker - Osteoporotic Coffin bones.pdf 


You will need to join ECHoof and you may need to cut and paste the link into your browser.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

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Re: Nine Great Years

Shari Starr
 

Jenny, my heart goes out to you in the passing of your lovely Sara into spirit. I'm just 6 months into the grieving process for my heart horse, Snickers that passed (non-cushing's related)after 22 yrs with me & it's very tough. The Hoofbeats In Heaven yahoo support group has helped me immensley so please know that you don't have to go it alone. Or, you can e-mail me privately & I'd be glad to e-walk beside you in your grief & healing. I'll light a candle for Sara tonight & keep you in my prayers for comfort & peace. Hugs to you.

I am standing by the seashore. A ship at my side spreads her white sails to the morning breeze and starts for the blue ocean. She is an object of beauty and strength,and I stand and watch until at last she hangs like a speck of white cloud just where the sun and sky come down to mingle with each other. Then someone at my side says, 'There she goes! Gone where? Gone from my sight - that is all. She is just as large in mast and hull and spar as she was when she left my side and just as able to bear her load of living freight to the places of destination.
Her diminished size is in me, not in her. And just at the moment when someone at my side says,'There she goes! ', there are other eyes watching her coming, and other voices ready to take up the glad shout : 'Here she comes!'

Henry van Dyke.


Re: Nine Great Years

Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, Jenny Blackman <jennyb_05492@...> wrote:

Jenny,

How wonderful that you were able to give your mare all those happy bonus years! She was SO lucky to have you for her owner!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010


Re: Causes for g.i. upsets/nervousness after move

Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, <cjjacoby@...> wrote:

Carol,

I am hoping that others more knowledgeable than I am will answer your specific questions about Ari. I will respond to the question about the duration of loose manure:

With my non-PPID, non-IR but highly sensitive mare, her loose stools continue as long as the stressor is present. If the stressor is confinement, she will continue squirting until she is no longer confined--regardless of what I do to 'treat' the problem. So in her case, with loose, frequent manure (sometimes liquid) that is triggered by stress, the ONLY apparent cure is relieving the stress.

With Pookey Bear, his episodic looseness seemed much less related to stress, and more related to diet, specifically changes in his diet.

My supposition is that he is a horse with a very delicate balance of microflora, and that changes that many horses would shrug off apparently affect him more dramatically. I suspect this because when he has had an episode (usually triggered by a hay change) it seems to take him a few weeks to firm up again, and it seems to be a process--the stool gradually becomes firmer, not overnight the way my mare's does.

I hope a knowledgeable nutrition guru will weigh in here but this seems to suggest perhaps a gradual die off and/or repopulation of gut flora?

Re: the ODTBC--these seem to be a 'firming' food for PB so when he is having loose manure I try to increase his intake of thoroughly soaked ODTBC. This has the added benefit of keeping him well hydrated.

Perhaps that might be a good approach with Ari? It is SO difficult to predict because I am sure there are horses that don't respond to them the way PB does.

Lastly, it is quite possible that Ari is still 'pining' a bit over his previous situation and wishing he was turned out with those other horses. I would not panic at all over this if he is eating well and seems ok otherwise. He might just need a little more time to adjust. I am glad he is adjacent to those other horses. I realize many horses prefer to be turned out together but I have two 'singles' and they have learned to adapt. It is--just like everything else--a process!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010


Pergolide contributing to Osteoporosis?

bizzibizzigirl
 

Is there anyone here that knows if Pergolide causes/contributes to Osteoporosis?  I've had someone mention this to me today and I've not heard of this as a possible side effect of the drug.  


I've tried to find further information on the internet but not having much luck finding any specific credible information.

Thanks in advance :)

Lisa 
Victoria, Australia


Re: Causes for g.i. upsets/nervousness after move

Carol Jacoby
 

Thanks Lisa,


Before I ask my questions, if Jenny reads this I want to extend my sympathies to her. Jenny gave her horse a wonderful life and she knew the love of a special human.  Not all horses get that. Jenny can be sure that her friend is now running with the wild mustangs in heaven where they will all be someday. 


Thanks so much for the advice and comments Lisa - it really helps knowing someone else has walked this path.  My question is about Ari's continued loose manure and drippys.  He has not had a normal stool now for 1 week.  You said Pookey Bear was loose manure was temporary from the same thing.  How long was it?  Ari was beginning to get loose the week before I moved him - not sure if the other barn groom was feeding him the wrong hay during the day.  He had previously, up until that barn groom arrived,  had a month of perfect manure. Last Sunday, the manure was intermittently loose, so I went ahead with the dewormer. As you said in your response, the move and/or the dewormer could be a culprit, and after reading more info on Quest Plus on this forum, I am in agreement.


There was only one time that Ari did not have loose manure during all of our 12 moves, and it was this past summer when he was moved to 5 acres with 2 other horses on pasture.  The grass was bermuda - no weeds - and mowed very short. He was eating no hay there also.  From day one I was amazed that the manure was normal. He was let out with the other horses on day 2, and they all got along with no kicks - just some bites.  On that short bermuda grass for 2 months, Ari had perfect manure. He is not with another horse now but is able to walk up to the other 2 on the other side of his fence.  I realize you said to look to the physical components before behavioral, but do you think there may be a possibility that not being able to interact with those other 2 is stressing him?  Sometimes I see him stand at the fence line looking over at the others - he may stand for 10 minutes.  His pasture is almost 3 acres - could he be a bit insecure in that large of a space by himself?


You mentioned stability in diet.  Before the move, for supplements, he was receiving loose salt,  2 oz Omega horseshine and 2-2.5 cups OTBC's once per day in the p.m. because I was there to feed it.  Now he gets these 2x per day. These are not large amounts to tip the scale OR perhaps they are?  I had always wanted the other barn to give these in the a.m., but they were barely able to give hay so supplements were out of the question - it was up to me..


At this point, would it be safe to cut out that a.m. feeding of these (except the salt) and see what happens or wait until I return home as I will be gone for the next 5 days?.


The other question is: could the dewormer have caused a significant kill off of good flora, which in turn has compromised his immune system making him more susceptible to bacteria that have not yet been identified such as Salmonella or Clostridium. b or d?  Of course, this would happen around the holidays and I cannot have a vet come and run blood tests and fecal until I return on Friday, but I can arrange for this.  Ari does not appear bloated and is not dehydrated.  I have asked the grooms to monitor the water intake as it will be below freezing for the next 2 nights.  He is not blanketed and I do not see the need to as his coat is thick. He is still eating a combo of coastal and orchard/brome  free choice hay (the o/b has been tested at EA showing low fiber - report's in Ari's case file). I will put up on Ari's case file his exact diet so that may help in solving this problem.


Questons: 1. Try Biiosponge?  Ari hates it - hared to get it down.

                  2. Stop the flaxseed/ OTBC  in a.m?

                  3. Possible bacterial infection and what are other                                           signs/symptoms?  .

                  4 Is a week of loose manure enough to be very concerned?

                  5. Should I remove as much fiber as possible? 

                  6. WRT mold, in his shelter, there was an old wooden hay                             rack still on the back side and not all of the old moldy hay                         was removed - it was stuck into some crevasses and some                       could have fallen down.  Is accidental ingestion possible?  I                       have tried to removed this, but it's stuck back pretty far.  It                         was hard to see the night I moved him, but it definitely                                needs to be cleaned out; I removed much of it yesterday. 

                  7. Purchase a goat for company? lol

                  8. He gets 10 cc Full Bucket probiotic at p.m. daily - should I                         replace with Ration Plus?  They both have the same flora -                       Full Bucket also has L. Glutamine (I'd have to look up the                         amount again as another member asked)


Sorry for the dissertation again, but I am concerned that this is not going away.  Thanks for your help!


Carol, Aristotle in TX

August 2013
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/cjjtexas/ 









Re: Nine Great Years

aet001@...
 

I'm so sorry for your loss, Jenny.  Fly free, Sara, green grass and blue skies forever.  Amy in PA '06ish (Herbie IR, Darby, lost beloveds on HIH Echo, Dylan, Pebbles, Cherry, Misty who was C/IR)




---In EquineCushings@{{emailDomain}}, <jennyb_05492@...> wrote:

This week I said goodbye to my beautiful Morgan mare Sara, almost 28
years old. She foundered and was diagnosed with Cushings nine years
ago. Thanks to this list I was able to nurse her back to health, and
keep her happy, fit, and ridable for nine "bonus" years.We had a lot of fun.
I want to thank everyone and give encouragement to you all.


Re: Nine Great Years

Donna Coughlin
 

Fly free Sara! How lucky you were to have such a caring mom, and how wonderful to have those good years together. She will be in your heart forever.

Donna Coughlin, Duke, Robin and Obi
CT 2009

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, Jenny Blackman <jennyb_05492@...> wrote:

This week I said goodbye to my beautiful Morgan mare Sara, almost 28
years old.


Re: Nine Great Years

Mule Maid
 

So sorry for your loss. Please know that you are in our hearts and in our prayers.

Ears to Ya!

Mulemaid

2/12


Re: Nine Great Years

Ronia Gortsos <rvangage@...>
 

Its a beautiful tribute and yes you were blessed with more time thanks to this wonderful group here. I wish you my deepest condolences for your loss as I know how painful this can be.
May her memories last eternally in your heart until you meet again.
 
 
 
Ronia in TO member since 2008
RIP Dillie Daydream
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: ejm
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎December‎ ‎21‎, ‎2013 ‎8‎:‎59‎ ‎PM
To: EquineCushings@...
 
 

On 12/21/2013 6:52 AM, Jenny Blackman wrote:
> This week I said goodbye to my beautiful Morgan mare Sara, almost 28
> years old. She foundered and was diagnosed with Cushings nine years
> ago. Thanks to this list I was able to nurse her back to health, and
> keep her happy, fit, and ridable for nine "bonus" years.We had a lot
> of fun. I want to thank everyone and give encouragement to you all.-


Re: Whipoorwill Amulet - due for a trim - requesting review by hoof gurus

PapBallou@...
 


I've posted a better set of photos for Bounce, taken about a week ago.  He's due for a trim this week and I would appreciate any considerations.  I don't see the "broken back pastern axis".  that was referred to in the comment above.   Trimmer has been working to get him standing more upright, but the frequent abscesses have made a mess with the front frogs, especially the front left, which blew out most of the frog on the last round.  He's sound, frog tissue is recovering.  Sound on arena sand, but uses boots otherwise.


Yahoo/neo is driving me nuts!  All I can get to view your photos is an outline of the photo washed in blue.  I give up.  It did let me download a few, but the photos are really, really big, so suspect that's the issue.  If possible, for any follow up photos that may be posted, reducing the number of pixels or photo size to *email* would make it much easier.

Bounce is definitely at the point of needing a trim.  I think the feet look pretty good, except there is quite a bit of bar in all feet - appears to be more than what usually grows between trims.  Heels also seem to be a bit underrun.  Addressing the bars should help make apparent a better heel height.

Would definitely radius the walls to sit virtually seamlessly with/against the white line, and bring the toe wall back until it's kissing the white line.  With the amount of snow on the ground, don't know that I'd do too much of a roll of the walls.

>Sound on arena sand - when being ridden or when moving at liberty?

>Trimmer working to get him more upright...does that mean she's adjusting the hoof capsule to get a different stance?  Before anything is done to make something into something it's not, I would invest in a set of x-rays, at least of the fronts.  Seeing how the bony column sits in its relationship with the hoof capsule is always a good idea, especially since the history states his feet are becoming more and more tender.

I see from the history that we don't have a definitive answer as yet as to if Bounce is IR, PPID or both.  Is the diet being addressed with low s/s hay, or soaked hay?

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004.   


Whipoorwill Amulet - due for a trim - requesting review by hoof gurus

Ruth Vale
 

laviniamfiscaletti wrote, regarding the first set of foot photos I posted::
 
>TRIM: Toes backed and heels lowered, with the hoof capsule tightly hugging the internal structures,
>In the pics there are some definite trim issues apparent.
>He has a broken back pastern axis, which means that the coffin bone is sitting with the rear portion lower than the tip.
>The front part of the hoof is taller than the rear. His heels are most likely underrun and the toes therefore too long.
 
I've posted a better set of photos for Bounce, taken about a week ago.  He's due for a trim this week and I would appreciate any considerations.  I don't see the "broken back pastern axis".  that was referred to in the comment above.   Trimmer has been working to get him standing more upright, but the frequent abscesses have made a mess with the front frogs, especially the front left, which blew out most of the frog on the last round.  He's sound, frog tissue is recovering.  Sound on arena sand, but uses boots otherwise.
 
>If you can get some foot pics before his next trim
>one of the hoof gurus can take a look and make sure the trim gets optimized.

I'm not one lightly to go about telling my trimmer (whom I consider pretty good at what she does) how to do her job, but we would value your input.
 
Ruth Vale and Whippoorwill Amulet (Bounce) joined Sept 2013
Caledon, Ontario CANADA
 


Re: Nine Great Years

Elva J Mico
 

On 12/21/2013 6:52 AM, Jenny Blackman wrote:
This week I said goodbye to my beautiful Morgan mare Sara, almost 28
years old. She foundered and was diagnosed with Cushings nine years
ago. Thanks to this list I was able to nurse her back to health, and
keep her happy, fit, and ridable for nine "bonus" years.We had a lot
of fun. I want to thank everyone and give encouragement to you all.-
I would like to extend my sympathies to you also. How wonderful that you had nine more years with her....but having so many years makes it more difficult to say good bye. Morgans are beautiful horses and mares are so special....I am just so sorry that you had to say good bye. Prayers sent to help you with your grief.

Elva & Angel Satin/2004/New Mexico
I was a dancer. One night at a gypsy camp, I drank a potion meant for
another and lost my heart to a horse named Satin.


Re: Nine Great Years

Lisa M. Koch
 

Hi Jenny:


I'm SO Sorry for the loss of your beautiful 28 year old mare Sara.  She was very lucky to have you for her Mom.  Morgans are beautiful and I'm sure you will miss her greatly.  My heart goes out to you Jenny, you and Sara are in my prayers.  She is watching over you now.  


Lisa M. Koch & Pony Ginger

Member 2003

Long Island, NY


Re: Nine Great Years

Carla
 



---In EquineCushings@{{emailDomain}}, wrote:

This week I said goodbye to my beautiful Morgan mare Sara, almost 28
years old. 

Jenny,
I am so sorry about your loss.

Carla 


Re: Nine Great Years

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Oh, Jenny, I am so sorry for your loss. Fly free, dear Sara.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, Jenny Blackman <jennyb_05492@...> wrote:

This week I said goodbye to my beautiful Morgan mare Sara, almost 28
years old.......


Re: Nine Great Years

Carol
 

So sorry for your loss, Jenny.  You gave her many well-loved years.


Carol and Rossi in Maryland 2003


On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Jenny Blackman <jennyb_05492@...> wrote:
 

This week I said goodbye to my beautiful Morgan mare Sara, almost 28
years old. She foundered and was diagnosed with Cushings nine years
ago. Thanks to this list I was able to nurse her back to health, and
keep her happy, fit, and ridable for nine "bonus" years.We had a lot of fun.
I want to thank everyone and give encouragement to you all.



Re: Nine Great Years

Nancy C
 

Dear Jenny,


I'm so very sorry for your loss. Sending my sincere hope for all those happy memories to fill in the huge hole in your heart. 


Thinking of you and sweet Sara.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003


Re: Nine Great Years

dnlf@...
 

Jenny,

So sorry for the loss of your girl Sara. May your happy memories of the time you two spent together help ease the pain in your heart.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Nappi and George over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



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