Date   

Veil question

bizzibizzigirl
 

Hi again!

Miami is giving me a lot of grief with his brekky & dinner feeds.  He's basically gone off them and become quite picky.  He was on soy hulls and had been quite accepting of them then a couple of weeks ago, started refusing.  So the desperation (read, exasperation!) began.  I've increased the lucerne, pulled out the soy hulls, added back in just two cups of soaked oaten chaff (tolerating well).  We had some acceptance again, although still a bit picky and would walk away, graze his hay then go back but would work his way through it.  Then he got a bit funny again so once again, in desperation, I sprinkled half a cup of copra into feed.  Miami is stable and latest bloods have returned normals (waiting on ACTH and leptin) so he's been fine with the couple of not recommended additions, however again today, he's refused them.  

He's commenced ulcer treatment now in the last few days as I suspect ulcers and my vet agrees highly probable.  

About 2 weeks prior to all this fussing, we switched to compounded Pergolide capsules and as we've just entered autumn, the dose was increased from 5.5ml/1.02mg to 1.25mg caps to guard against seasonal rise.  I thought Pergolide veil would start sooner than a couple of weeks into new dose (?) but given he's quite happy to graze on his hay and to graze in the paddock overnight, I didn't seriously consider veil.  

Tomorrow, I'll probably pull the soaked oaten back out and just give him lucerne only with his minerals, linseed and vit E.  It's looking like I'll have to syringe minerals in - just mix with water into paste?  I won't be popular for too long but I'm at my wit's end.  After the stress of all the hard work stabilising him and trimmer changes and finally seeing some good changes, he decides to do this!  Aaaarrgggh!

Because I have capsules, dropping the dose back isn't an option and ordering more at 1mg instead is just too costly here; the last lot were AUD $290 for 80 capsules!  But given he's happy to eat hay and overnight pasture, I'd have thought it wouldn't be veil.

I haven't tried flavourings but to be honest, I think he's being too fussy to try anything new.

He's never had signs of veil before.   Thoughts please?

Thank you :)

Lisa & Miami (Arab x RP)

Plus Condor & Woody (unchallenged)

Victoria, Australia – 2010

 

CH:   https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Miami%20and%20Lisa/

 

PICS:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/846035640


Re: New to Group

bizzibizzigirl
 

Hi Nikki

Carrots are too high in sugar but mine love celery!  It's a bit of an acquired taste for some of them but once they adapt, they love it.  I've two that aren't challenged metabolically and they love their celery too.

Welcome to the group.  You'll find it an invaluable source of information.  If you look in the files, you'll see an Australian section.  I know a lot of the reading refers to Northern Hemisphere, but the fundamentals as to feeding and management of our PPID and IR horses is still the same.

It can certainly feel overwhelming to begin with but you're amongst friends in this group.  We've all been there :)

Lisa & Miami (Arab x RP)

Plus Condor & Woody (unchallenged)

Victoria, Australia – 2010

 

CH:   https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Miami%20and%20Lisa/

 

PICS:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/846035640




Re: New to Group

Maggie
 

Hi Nikki,
 
Welcome to the group!  Can you tell us more about your Welsh pony?  How old is he/she and how was Cushing's diagnosed?  Actually, we ask all members to fill out a case history on their horse.  It gives us the details we need to help you better and also acts as a filing cabinet where we can access the information readily to answer any questions.  To fill out a CH, you'll need to join ECH8 here:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  You'll have to join that group, but it shouldn't take long to get approved.  In the meantime, let me tell you a little bit about our philosophy, called DDT/E.  That stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
 
Diagnosis:  Made by drawing labs for ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin levels.  Horses can have Cushing's (PPID) only, insulin resistance (IR) only, or a combination of IR and PPID.  The reason it's so important to get the diagnosis right is that PPID is treated with medicine (pergolide), IR is treated with diet, and a combination of IR and PPID would mean that the horse would not just need pergolide, but also need to be managed on an IR diet.  There's more information about how to get the proper labwork on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis   Used to be that Cornell lab in the US was the only place that a leptin level was available, but you do have it available now in Australia at Gribbles lab.  See our Aussie file here:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Australia/  Scroll down to the "Blood testing in Australia 2013" pdf for more details.  You may have already gotten your pony tested, in which case, you can post the test results in your case history.  Ponies are notoriously IR!  IR is a metabolic condition rather than a disease, and most ponies are "do-gooders", ie. they have a "thrifty gene" which makes them able to live (and get fat!) seemingly on air!  Unfortunately, LOTS of vets are still not educated on the difference between PPID and IR, and so do not test accordingly.  All PPID horses should be treated as though they are IR as well, until proven otherwise.  You are headed into the "seasonal rise" in Australia, where all horses have a natural rise in their ACTH, but PPID horses have an exaggerated rise in ACTH, making it an ideal time to test.  For more information on that, read here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise
 
Diet:  The diet is really very simple, but it is sometimes a paradigm shift in horse keeping management for people.  The diet we recommend is grass hay (tested to be under 10% sugar + starch) with minerals to balance the hay to the hay analysis, and to replace the fragile ingredients lost in the hay curing process, ground flax seed (which most closely mimics the Omega 3:6 ratio found in grass), and Vitamin E.  Until the hay is tested, especially if your pony is showing any signs of foot soreness, we recommend starting on the emergency diet found here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  You can also find the amounts of flax and Vitamin E you need to supplement in that "diet" part of our website.  Also very important in the IR diet is what you DON'T feed.  No pasture, grain, molasses, sugary treats, apples, carrots, high sugar hay.
 
Trim: A physiologically correct trim with toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  There is a PHOTO section in ECH8 where you are welcome to post pictures of your pony's feet and one of our hoof gurus can take a look and see if you have correct trim in place.
 
Exercise:  The BEST IR buster there is!  But a laminitic horse should NEVER be forced to move!  If your pony is foot sore, boots and pads may be needed for comfort.
 
Nikki, we have a ton of information in our files and on our website and you should sit down with a cup (ha! more like a pot of coffee) and read, read, read as much as you can!  Also, answers to lots of your questions can probably be found in our old messages, but the new yahoo format has made it somewhat challenging to search the archives, so don't hesitate to ask any questions that you have.   A couple of other things for you to know.  Pauline a long time Aussie ECIR member helps out a lot of with Aussie related stuff.  You can contact her at takarri "at" westnet "dot" com "dot" au.  Just replace the "at" and "dot"s with the appropriate symbols.  She can help you with any testing questions and help you to source materials and lots of other stuff!   Also, lots of great information on Carol Layton's website   http://www.balancedequine.com.au/   Don't hesitate to ask questions as they come up, as they surely will!  Again, welcome to the group!
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


 


Re: New to Group

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Leeanne,

Thanks for indicating where Rani's case history is in your signature.(and for offering your help!)
>Ec history 3

Here's a helpful trick. This is the actual link:
If  this link is added to your signature in place of  'Ec history 3' people will be able to go directly to it,in  case you need help from the volunteers.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc






Re: New to Group

 

Hi Nikki,
My name is Leanne I am also from Western Australia (Wanneroo) Rani and I Have been a member for approx 4 years the information and support has been of great help to us. If you or Sonia would like to pm me privately I will help you as much as I am able. 
Leanne n Rani
West Aust.2010 
Ec history 3


Re: New to Group

fionn@...
 

Carrots are actually really bad for them. I give sugar-free peppermints, lifesavers, etc as treats. And the bonus is that you can get them at any grocery or even gas stations! I also don't give nearly as many treats as I used to. You can also give whole peanuts in the shell. Believe it or not, they do like them!

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
June 2012




On Mar 17, 2014, at 2:29 AM, <bransclan@...> wrote:

 

i also wonder what i can give as treats, carrots maybe??


New file uploaded to EquineCushings

EquineCushings@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the EquineCushings
group.

File : /Drugs, Pergolide, Cushings Disease Treatments/Pergolide Dosage/ECIR Pergolide Dosage Database Link and Data Entry Form.doc
Uploaded by : tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@gmail.com>
Description : Access the Database and Entry Form Here

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%20Pergolide%2C%20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/Pergolide%20Dosage/ECIR%20Pergolide%20Dosage%20Database%20Link%20and%20Data%20Entry%20Form.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398

Regards,

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@gmail.com>


Fecal Egg Count Negative

lauramollrich
 

My vet just got the results from a fecal egg count.  It came back negative.  She said she didn't want to worm him because she didn't want to give him drugs his system doesn't need.  It's spring time and very warm here in Southern California.  Should I worm him regardless of the results?  You can see ribs when he turns around and I've been asked whether he's losing weight.  Maybe I need to have a new diet evaluation or could it be worms?

Help!  
Laura M in CA
1/2012


Re: New to Group

bransclan@...
 

Hi Sonia:)
I have just joined this group and also from WA, my welsh pony was diagnosed Cushings about 3 weeks ago.
Any local info or useful links, hints and tips you can share are appreciated, much of what i have read is not for Australia,  i hope that Bella is improving already and you have found a good diet for her, i also wonder what i can give as treats, carrots maybe??

Thanks Sonia:)

Nikki 


Dimagnesium Malate

bizzibizzigirl
 

I've seen a reference made to dimagnesium malate as being the most bioavailable form of magnesium.  I'm guessing the most expensive too LOL!

Is someone able to comment on this?  It's been queried in another group so I thought I'd try to find out more where I'm not being sold a product!

Thank you

Lisa & Miami (Arab x RP)

Plus Condor & Woody (unchallenged)

Victoria, Australia – 2010

 

CH:   https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Miami%20and%20Lisa/

 

PICS:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/846035640

 


Re: New research on PPID protocols from Tufts University - thyrotropin stimulation test

Ruth Vale
 

Oops - forgot to sign.

Ruth Vale and Whippoorwill Amulet (Bounce)
joined Sept 2013
Caledon, Ontario CANADA

Case History
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Ruth%20and%20Bounce%20Case%20History%20-%20Ontario%2C%20Canada/
Photos
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/photos/albums/841667078


New research on PPID protocols from Tufts University - thyrotropin stimulation test

Ruth Vale
 

New research on PPID protocols from Tufts University published in December 2013.  Has this group evaluated this research yet?  Results do align with advice given by this group - to not use DST - I had to convince my vet for precisely the reasons quoted.  On-farm test for PPID is a good thing - do we know anything further about the new test?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131204181421.htm
From the article:

The newly established guidelines retain the recommendation to measure resting ACTH concentrations, but the group has lowered the recommendation for using the DST. Recent research shows that the DST is no better at detecting PPID than other tests, and horse owners have concerns about dexamethasone inducing laminitis, a painful condition affecting the feet that can lead to death.

Instead, the EEG group recommends a thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) stimulation test, which is particularly useful when horses with early PPID have normal resting ACTH concentrations. TRH causes the pituitary gland to release more hormones and ACTH concentrations increase to a higher level in horses with PPID. This test is easily performed on the farm by taking a baseline blood sample, injecting TRH intravenously, and collecting a second blood sample 10 minutes later. At present, the TRH stimulation test should only be used between December and June, which is the only period in which cut-off values have been established. Cut-off values allow veterinarians to interpret results and determine whether the horse suffers from PPID


Re: 9 mg Compounded Pergolide available

Nancy C
 

Hi Karen

I will delete your message.  Please know that most of us have been through what I think you are going through right now and send support and sympathies. 

Your offer of pergolide was a great tribute.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.

www.ECIRhorse.org

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group


http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/non-profit-group


Re: New Member: Steph and Chance from Ontario (March 09/14) Very sore front feet

Betty Ann
 

Connie and Steph, we could look into the possibility of a price break on quantity if we could guarantee the sale of a pallet (or two) between the three of us buying from Roseau on the same load. (?) Perhaps, Connie could pick up her order (as in the past, by the sounds of it), and I could pick up for Steph so she doesn't have so far to go. For what ever reason, in the past I've found the price in Roseau to be better than the price drop-shipped on the Canadian side - just need to keep in mind the current exchange factor.
Glad to have another interested person in the area!
Betty Ann
Mar 08
ON CAN


Re: New Member: Steph and Chance from Ontario (March 09/14) Very sore front feet

slainte76@...
 

>> I purchased ODTC from Fleet Dist in Roseau MN because that was the closest source I could find at the time. <<
Hi Connie,
I have not found a supplier in Manitoba, but am looking into the possibility of having 1 or 2 pallets of ODTC dropped in Winnipeg.  Otherwise, I may be looking at going to Roseau,MN as well.  You can email me at slainte76athotmaildotcom if you want (How far off Hwy. 17 are you?).
Steph
Ontario (March 2014)


Re: 9 mg Compounded Pergolide available

PapBallou@...
 

Karen -

I am very hesitant to reply to you, because offers of pergolide usually mean a sad day.  I am respecting your privacy and not asking for any info, but feel compelled to send you hugs and prayers.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Compounded Pergolide

dnlf@...
 

Hi Lynne,

Kudos to you for being a good friend and helping out.

All medications should be protected from temperature extremes (both hot and cold) so as not to compromise their strength. Compounded ones MAY be more susceptible to potency issues with temp extremes so we recommend storing compounded perg in the door of the fridge to minimize that risk. The form of the compounded perg will also be a factor - if it is liquid it loses potency within 14-30 days whether refrigerated or not; powders are better but still need to be stirred as the ingredients can settle and separate out plus are afffected by exposure to air/light each time the jar is opened. Compounded perg capsules are the best in terms of stability.

What does the vet mean by "the perg doesn't seem to be working" and what are the problems your friend's horse is having? Are laminitis issues present that aren't resolving? Problems with the trim could be a big part of the picture here.

How long has the horse been on pergolide? How was PPID diagnosed? Is IR a possibility as well? This would require instituting dietary changes to get issues resolved.

Is bloodwork being done regularly to monitor control? Is ACTH uncontrolled? PPID (Cushings) is a progressive condition so the dose of pergolide - whether it is compounded or Prascend - will need to be increased over time to maintain good control.

We could really use a case history for this horse to help more fully. You can also check our educational website for more info - can send your friend there as well:

http://www.ecirhorse.org/

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



9 mg Compounded Pergolide available

Kc <karenclarinet@...>
 

I have 28 capsules of 9 mg pergolide from thriving pets, peppermint flavor. I got it overnight last tues March 11 and kept it in frig. Karen clarinet @ g mail . Com

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2014, at 10:11 AM, <janieclougher@...> wrote:

 

Hi, Lynne -  Heat and moisture will degrade the potency of pergolide, so, particularly in a warm place like Alabama, yes the pergolide should be refrigerated.   I keep mine in  their bottles, inside a yogurt container with dried rice on the bottom to absorb moisture (silica packs would work, too); and on the door of the fridge. Most people here only get a month's prescription at a time.

Here is the link to a study on pergolide stability:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%20Pergolide%2C%20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/

Scroll down to "Pergolide Forms and Stability", it is third from the bottom.

The other (most common) cause for pergolide to seem not to work is that the dose simply isn't high enough.  If you go have a look at the Pergolide Database, you will see a host of horses on doses higher than 5 mg (one of mine is on 15, the other on 9, the third on 2)

Hope that helps.


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR  mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/




Does compounded Pergolide need to be refrigerated to maintain stability
Lynne 3/2014
North Alabama


Re: Compounded Pergolide

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Lynne -  Heat and moisture will degrade the potency of pergolide, so, particularly in a warm place like Alabama, yes the pergolide should be refrigerated.   I keep mine in  their bottles, inside a yogurt container with dried rice on the bottom to absorb moisture (silica packs would work, too); and on the door of the fridge. Most people here only get a month's prescription at a time.

Here is the link to a study on pergolide stability:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%20Pergolide%2C%20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/

Scroll down to "Pergolide Forms and Stability", it is third from the bottom.

The other (most common) cause for pergolide to seem not to work is that the dose simply isn't high enough.  If you go have a look at the Pergolide Database, you will see a host of horses on doses higher than 5 mg (one of mine is on 15, the other on 9, the third on 2)

Hope that helps.


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR  mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/




Does compounded Pergolide need to be refrigerated to maintain stability
Lynne 3/2014
North Alabama


Re: **ANNOUNCING THE NEW PERGOLIDE DOSAGE DATABASE**

janieclougher@...
 

Woohooooo!  Thanks, LeeAnne! 

Everyone, make sure your current dosages and horsie info have been emailed to LeeAnne.


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR  mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/




Please if you have not updated or entered your equine’s information, send LeeAnne an email. It won’t take long, and especially with the new columns, there will be big benefits to all horses with PPID and their owners down the road.

"The only "correct" dose of pergolide is the one that controls his ACTH."
- Dr. Kellon, ECIR Message #132610, Sep 2, 2009.

Thank you for your cooperation and taking the time to “give back”.


Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List

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