Date   

Re: back feet in laminitis..

bigwhitevan2002
 




Thanks guys,
I am not comfortable trimming yet been reading all I can when I have time on ramsy stuff etc... as well as following ec hoof posts , but I just don't get a lot of the information yet....and do not want to mess things up , did and will continue with thrush stuff ( durosole) I do anyways with them all cause their feet get so soft in the swampland oregon pasture...
just the opposite of what we did when I was growing up, in desert we had to put moisturizer on their hoofs...
Julie 



..>>>>>>>>>>>Glad to hear Pony's feeling better and acting like a, well, pony : )

. As a stop-gap, if you aren't comfortable rasping them down, put a little bit of thrush meds on the frog area occaisionally until the trim can get done.



Re: Insulin Resistance vs Hyperinsulinemia

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

 does IR lead to (chronic?) hyperinsuulinemia or does hyperinsulinemia lead to IR.

Would love to hear an overview on why and how these conditions would be different,
= = = = = =

Hyperinsulinemia is a blood level of insulin higher than would be expected for the blood glucose level. For example, an insulin of 20 to 30 uIU would be abnormal/hyper with fasting or low S/S hay but normal after a grain meal.


Intravenous infusion of very high levels of insulin causes changes that could lead to IR:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21292427

However, this study found that high carbohydrate feeding for 90 days in horses that remained lean did not induce IR:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22129443

Calling the insulin response to grain feeding "hyperinsulinemia" is actually not correct because it is a normal response to higher blood glucose. There are other studies documenting reduced insulin sensitivity in grain fed horses but the question now is how much this is tied to obesity. It should also be pointed out that studies which induce IR compared to baseline in normally insulin sensitive breeds like the thoroughbred may not induce any changes in proxies but can only be detcted by intravenous testing.

Hyperinsulinemia is a integral part of IR. The only other possible cause is an insulin secreting tumor, which has never been described in the horse, and certain drugs.  Therefore, in the absence of drugs hyperinsulinemia is diagnostic of IR.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: EquineCushings

Nancy C
 

Hi Sallly

RE: the Banamine, have usually just given after the shot.  The year we had the reaction, I messed up.  New vet, had family issues going on at the same time (very ill parent) and was not focused.  We did not do any Banamine.

Members have reported of horses having reactions up to two weeks from  the day of the vaccination, so in general what has been recommended  has been two week intervals between shots.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc






Re: EquineCushings

larkstabatha
 

Nancy... thanks for sharing this info with us.  In your case, when in relation to the vaccine administration did you give the Banamine?  And if you were going to separate vaccines, suggested time between.

Thanks again,

Sally in NAZ

April 2013



Re: Chaste Berry Powde / new question on this topic

Sara Gooch
 

Lavinia,

This following sentence from your post confuses me. It seems to contradict the info in the files and archives that conclude the CTB might alleviate PPID symptoms, but that it does not lower ACTH.  Your recent  post that CTB, might effect control of PPID, implies then that CTB CAN lower ACTH?  Or?
From your post: "If CTB was started without any diagnostic testing for PPID then it's murky as you don't know whether there actually is PPID, or whether the CTB is effecting control of PPID, or whether there is early PPID that only shows up during the fall seasonal rise with no current effect from the CTB."

I understand that CTB can lessen the symptoms of PPID, but have group members here found that CTB has actually significantly lowered ACTH?

Thanks for any clarification that anyone can offer--


Sara, NE California, 2011




Re: New bloodwork- please advise

 

Thanks Lavinia! I'm feeling like it's more under control now. I just placed an order for Stabul 1 & will get that going when it gets here. Beth & Flame NV Oct 2013


Re: Need advice re WNV vaccination !!!

Nancy C
 

Hi Cass and Sally

In her vaccine course, Dr Kellon addressed this study and the question of NSAID use. She commented that the study was well designed, that NSAIDs probably don't block the immune response but do block the adjuvent  which creates the inflammatory response which draws the vaccine antigens.  Her bottom line though was that the study cannot answer if the horses are less well protected as a result. Researchers would need to  expose the horse to the various live organisms to ascertain that info.

Anyone interested in the vaccine short course, (well worth it) can find info here drkellon.com

Both my boys had bad reactions to Merial Rabies three years ago with 102 temps. I had not revax'd rabies since until this year, and I gave the rabies only to my non-metabolic guy.  He also got banamine.

Members have also used antihistamines a few days before and after the shot. Or pull titers vs vaccinating. Dr K has recommended not using arginine. See this post

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/127596

IR horses are more susceptible to reaction. Vaccinations can often be the tipping point for a horse who has other undiagnosed or unaddressed issue like subclinical laminitis, poor nutritional support and unbalanced and improperly loaded feet.  I made sure my guys were freshly trimmed before the vax, because I want the foot to have no where to go if there is a reaction.

Here's a couple of interesting threads
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/59148
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/131557
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


Re: Need advice re WNV vaccination !!!

larkstabatha
 

Thank you Cass.  Also wanted to ask about the minimum length of time to wait between vaccine administration when giving one vaccination at a time... in my case Tetanus Toxoid, and then WNV (after finding out from my Vet's office that they are not able to order a single dose of the Recombitek - I will be ordering this on line).


Thanks again,

Sally in N.AZ

April 2013


Re: back feet in laminitis..

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julie,

Glad to hear Pony's feeling better and acting like a, well, pony : )

The crumbly stuff is just old, exfoliating sole that normally wears off on its own or is removed when the feet get trimmed. Because you haven't been able to get to her hind feet due to the pain issues in the fronts, this shedding sole has accumulated a bit and with the wet conditions and long walls (from not trimming) is obvious. You can scrape it out with the hoof pick while cleaning her feet. The frog seems non-existent because the walls are so much longer than they should be. Ideally, need to get them trimmed down to the proper height. As a stop-gap, if you aren't comfortable rasping them down, put a little bit of thrush meds on the frog area occaisionally until the trim can get done.

In desert-type conditions you probably wouldn't see this as the dry, abrasive terrain would naturally tend to remove it.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: back feet in laminitis..

PapBallou@...
 


Question....Is this anything to worry about, we do live in the wettest inhabited place that could ever possibly exist on the planet...( disclaimer, my frame of reference is skewed because I am desert born and bred, so this 9 months of rain gets trying)

my plan is to keep her backs clean and as dry as possible...until she can have a trim...but wondered about the crumbly sole that came off if its just poor hoof care do to not really doing anything with her backs for a while, she normally has rock hard sole on all feet.
Julie 
Oregon 06

Julie -

Think of that crumbly stuff as dead skin (it's dead sole) - just like you 'exfoliating' with a loofa sponge.  The cave appearance is from long walls.  They should be trimmed as soon as she can tolerate balancing on three since they are carrying more weight as she transfers weight off the fronts.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Case history for Babe (old horse with PPID)

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lydia,

Good to hear she's doing so well. As you say, at this age using some bute may be a necessary thing - you have to balance the quality of life issues with the negatives. You might talk to your vet about trying Previcox/Equioxx instead of the bute. It is a Cox2 inhibitor and a bit more selective in it's action. If you go this route, please be sure that you pay close attention to the dosing guidelines if using the Previcox as it is formulated based on canine dosing requirements, which are much higher than the equine dosing rates. I believe we discussed that option before, correct?

Let us know when the new ACTH comes in. If it doesn't come back solidly within normal values will need to up the Prascend. That may/may not affect her non-shedding as getting the pergolide dose correct doesn't necessarily control shedding. Can try adding chastetree berry to her supplements as this can help induce shedding once the ACTH is properly controlled with the perg.

Let us know how the new girl's bloodwork turns out. In it's early stages, an IR horse may not "appear IR". This could also be due to dietary issues as an unbalanced diet will eventually "catch up" with your horse. The most common deficiencies are copper and zinc, which are vital to healthy hoof growth and maintenance. Excess iron, a common problem, will exacerbate these deficiencies. You can also put up some pics of her feet (in the ECHistory8 Photos section) so we can give them a once-over to see if the trim may be contributing. Sometimes what looks "normal" is not necessarily correct/healthy.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: New bloodwork- please advise

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Beth,

Good job of following up on weighing and getting the hay soaked  : )

Hair analysis is a waste of your funds for using to mineral balance your rations as it only gives you information on what was going on several months in the past. Plus, there are problems with contamination. Check this file for more specific info, in particular the Hair Mineral Excerpt and Value of Blood, Hair and Hay testing folders:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Hair%20Analysis/

You can feed as much of the Stabul 1 as you need in addition to the hay and BP. The plus is that it is already mineral balanced (to itself) so that portion of Flame's ration doesn't need mineral balancing.

Hang in there - you've taken some great, real steps toward addressing Flame's issues.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team




Re: Chaste Berry Powde / new question on this topic

bigwhitevan2002
 




Well , that clears it up.......ummmm....lol.
i will pull her off the CTB and test her ACTH in the next couple of weeks and see where we are at, not going to do insulin etc.  no need , and the results wont change how I manage her, I know she is IR with a high risk...and money is tight now...
Thanks for the guidelines..
Julie 
Oregon 06

>>>>>>>>>>If CTB was started without any diagnostic testing for PPID then it's murky as you don't know whether there actually is PPID, or whether the CTB is effecting control of PPID, or whether there is early PPID that only shows up during the fall seasonal rise with no current effect from the CTB.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



________________________________________________________________________


Re: Need advice re WNV vaccination !!!

 

Sally:
You might also consider the possible effect of banamine on your horses' immune response to the vaccine for WNV. I can't access the original article, but here's a summary. 

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct 12


Insulin Resistance vs Hyperinsulinemia

Nancy C
 

Hi Dr Kellon

A number of threads in the last few weeks have pointed us to outside research discussions leaning towards Hyperinsulinemia in our equines as being the primary focus versus Insulin Resistance.  In reading a bit of the human medicine take, it seems that there is discussion as to which causes what. IOW, does IR lead to (chronic?) hyperinsuulinemia or does hyperinsulinemia lead to IR.

Would love to hear an overview on why and how these conditions would be different, and if different, what would that mean to diagnosis and treatment.

Thanks

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


back feet in laminitis..

bigwhitevan2002
 

hi friends,
probably a  stupid question but none the less its is a question.
Yesterday I took off Ponys boots so I can replace her styro inserts, went into the barn to cut them out came back into the stall to put them on and Pony had disappeared...I am sharing this because it was so encouraging to see that she had made an escape, albeit only out to the other side of the barn but she had to truck across crushed gravel to do so...... this is exciting to me as she has not been able to bear any weight on her feet with out boots and now she trucks across crushed gravel and by trucks I mean picks her way very slowly to stand by the pasture gate waiting to be turned out with her buddies...:( 

Anyhows, now that I see she can stand on her own two feet...I think good I can finally clean out her back feet have not been able to very often because she just couldn't, 
well her back feet are like caves , I was able to keep digging and digging crumbly white stuff out and it appears as tho she has no frog, just a hoof wall with a very deep cup, doesn't smell, not sore, so I just put some durasole on her backs, and rebooted her fronts...she was mad I didn't let her out to pasture for a reward for walking barefoot over gravel...:)

Farrier cant come out for 2 more weeks he had something come  up, her backs have not been trimmed in forever ........
Question....Is this anything to worry about, we do live in the wettest inhabited place that could ever possibly exist on the planet...( disclaimer, my frame of reference is skewed because I am desert born and bred, so this 9 months of rain gets trying)

my plan is to keep her backs clean and as dry as possible...until she can have a trim...but wondered about the crumbly sole that came off if its just poor hoof care do to not really doing anything with her backs for a while, she normally has rock hard sole on all feet.
Julie 
Oregon 06


Vaccinations & Banamine

larkstabatha
 

Hi... In searching the archives, I see Nancy's past comment on giving Banamine Pre & Post vax.  Is it worthwhile to ask my vet to administer Banamine to my compensated IR mare at the same time she is getting her Tetanus vaccine this week if I am not able to do it Pre and Post?

Thank you,

Sally in N. AZ

April 2013



Alfalfa cubes

Ethlyn Vogler
 

Over the last several months, Dakota (30 yr-old retired Morgan) has become more and more picky about eating. He will not eat TC Senior in quantities that seem large enough to maintain weight, pretty much turns up his nose at his custom balancing supplements in feed, nibbles at hay. (He's on Prascend, but this behavior accompanied compounded pergolide also.) Last week I delivered a bag of alfalfa cubes, soaked them while I groomed him, then offered them, and he seemed to relish them, even soggy (not his favorite), but next day he was again disinterested. Barn owner/caretaker says he will eat them a cup or so at a time, broken into flakes with water poured over, but not to the point of sogginess...she's wondering if this is safe. She would feed him a cup or so 3x a day. He has great teeth and is not an aggressive eater...and even with this hit-and-miss appetite he is in pretty good weight after this horrendous winter. What say, Gurus?

Ethlyn
Michigan
2007

Sent from my iPad


Re: ADM Grostrong Mintrate and high Protein to treat IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Substituting one of these high protein "balancers" for grain in a diet would be a step in the right direction and may be where this idea started but otherwise they are not a treatment for IR. Most are also too high in sugar and starch.

Higher protein may well contribute the insulin response but as Lars pointed out there is not much data on this. We have had owners over the years who reported problems with high protein hays that otherwise should have been tolerated. More work needs to be done.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001





Re: ADM Grostrong Mintrate and high Protein to treat IR

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <dixie6264@...> wrote :
I was asked if I knew anything about a course of high protein being used to treat IR.
 
- - - - -

I would be interested in a response from the experts on this matter too. The studies I have read only points to negative effects of protein for IR horses:

http://wageningenacademic.metapress.com/content/601331200q4208t5/fulltext.pdf

 

This makes me wonder whether the high protein level in spring grass may contribute to the high incidence of laminitis/founder at that time of year.

Here is another study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11263835

 

Lars

Sweden, July 2008

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