Date   

Re: Need advice re WNV vaccination !!!

Nancy C
 

Hi Cass and Sally

In her vaccine course, Dr Kellon addressed this study and the question of NSAID use. She commented that the study was well designed, that NSAIDs probably don't block the immune response but do block the adjuvent  which creates the inflammatory response which draws the vaccine antigens.  Her bottom line though was that the study cannot answer if the horses are less well protected as a result. Researchers would need to  expose the horse to the various live organisms to ascertain that info.

Anyone interested in the vaccine short course, (well worth it) can find info here drkellon.com

Both my boys had bad reactions to Merial Rabies three years ago with 102 temps. I had not revax'd rabies since until this year, and I gave the rabies only to my non-metabolic guy.  He also got banamine.

Members have also used antihistamines a few days before and after the shot. Or pull titers vs vaccinating. Dr K has recommended not using arginine. See this post

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/127596

IR horses are more susceptible to reaction. Vaccinations can often be the tipping point for a horse who has other undiagnosed or unaddressed issue like subclinical laminitis, poor nutritional support and unbalanced and improperly loaded feet.  I made sure my guys were freshly trimmed before the vax, because I want the foot to have no where to go if there is a reaction.

Here's a couple of interesting threads
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/59148
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/131557
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


Re: Need advice re WNV vaccination !!!

larkstabatha
 

Thank you Cass.  Also wanted to ask about the minimum length of time to wait between vaccine administration when giving one vaccination at a time... in my case Tetanus Toxoid, and then WNV (after finding out from my Vet's office that they are not able to order a single dose of the Recombitek - I will be ordering this on line).


Thanks again,

Sally in N.AZ

April 2013


Re: back feet in laminitis..

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julie,

Glad to hear Pony's feeling better and acting like a, well, pony : )

The crumbly stuff is just old, exfoliating sole that normally wears off on its own or is removed when the feet get trimmed. Because you haven't been able to get to her hind feet due to the pain issues in the fronts, this shedding sole has accumulated a bit and with the wet conditions and long walls (from not trimming) is obvious. You can scrape it out with the hoof pick while cleaning her feet. The frog seems non-existent because the walls are so much longer than they should be. Ideally, need to get them trimmed down to the proper height. As a stop-gap, if you aren't comfortable rasping them down, put a little bit of thrush meds on the frog area occaisionally until the trim can get done.

In desert-type conditions you probably wouldn't see this as the dry, abrasive terrain would naturally tend to remove it.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: back feet in laminitis..

PapBallou@...
 


Question....Is this anything to worry about, we do live in the wettest inhabited place that could ever possibly exist on the planet...( disclaimer, my frame of reference is skewed because I am desert born and bred, so this 9 months of rain gets trying)

my plan is to keep her backs clean and as dry as possible...until she can have a trim...but wondered about the crumbly sole that came off if its just poor hoof care do to not really doing anything with her backs for a while, she normally has rock hard sole on all feet.
Julie 
Oregon 06

Julie -

Think of that crumbly stuff as dead skin (it's dead sole) - just like you 'exfoliating' with a loofa sponge.  The cave appearance is from long walls.  They should be trimmed as soon as she can tolerate balancing on three since they are carrying more weight as she transfers weight off the fronts.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Case history for Babe (old horse with PPID)

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lydia,

Good to hear she's doing so well. As you say, at this age using some bute may be a necessary thing - you have to balance the quality of life issues with the negatives. You might talk to your vet about trying Previcox/Equioxx instead of the bute. It is a Cox2 inhibitor and a bit more selective in it's action. If you go this route, please be sure that you pay close attention to the dosing guidelines if using the Previcox as it is formulated based on canine dosing requirements, which are much higher than the equine dosing rates. I believe we discussed that option before, correct?

Let us know when the new ACTH comes in. If it doesn't come back solidly within normal values will need to up the Prascend. That may/may not affect her non-shedding as getting the pergolide dose correct doesn't necessarily control shedding. Can try adding chastetree berry to her supplements as this can help induce shedding once the ACTH is properly controlled with the perg.

Let us know how the new girl's bloodwork turns out. In it's early stages, an IR horse may not "appear IR". This could also be due to dietary issues as an unbalanced diet will eventually "catch up" with your horse. The most common deficiencies are copper and zinc, which are vital to healthy hoof growth and maintenance. Excess iron, a common problem, will exacerbate these deficiencies. You can also put up some pics of her feet (in the ECHistory8 Photos section) so we can give them a once-over to see if the trim may be contributing. Sometimes what looks "normal" is not necessarily correct/healthy.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: New bloodwork- please advise

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Beth,

Good job of following up on weighing and getting the hay soaked  : )

Hair analysis is a waste of your funds for using to mineral balance your rations as it only gives you information on what was going on several months in the past. Plus, there are problems with contamination. Check this file for more specific info, in particular the Hair Mineral Excerpt and Value of Blood, Hair and Hay testing folders:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Hair%20Analysis/

You can feed as much of the Stabul 1 as you need in addition to the hay and BP. The plus is that it is already mineral balanced (to itself) so that portion of Flame's ration doesn't need mineral balancing.

Hang in there - you've taken some great, real steps toward addressing Flame's issues.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team




Re: Chaste Berry Powde / new question on this topic

bigwhitevan2002
 




Well , that clears it up.......ummmm....lol.
i will pull her off the CTB and test her ACTH in the next couple of weeks and see where we are at, not going to do insulin etc.  no need , and the results wont change how I manage her, I know she is IR with a high risk...and money is tight now...
Thanks for the guidelines..
Julie 
Oregon 06

>>>>>>>>>>If CTB was started without any diagnostic testing for PPID then it's murky as you don't know whether there actually is PPID, or whether the CTB is effecting control of PPID, or whether there is early PPID that only shows up during the fall seasonal rise with no current effect from the CTB.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



________________________________________________________________________


Re: Need advice re WNV vaccination !!!

 

Sally:
You might also consider the possible effect of banamine on your horses' immune response to the vaccine for WNV. I can't access the original article, but here's a summary. 

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct 12


Insulin Resistance vs Hyperinsulinemia

Nancy C
 

Hi Dr Kellon

A number of threads in the last few weeks have pointed us to outside research discussions leaning towards Hyperinsulinemia in our equines as being the primary focus versus Insulin Resistance.  In reading a bit of the human medicine take, it seems that there is discussion as to which causes what. IOW, does IR lead to (chronic?) hyperinsuulinemia or does hyperinsulinemia lead to IR.

Would love to hear an overview on why and how these conditions would be different, and if different, what would that mean to diagnosis and treatment.

Thanks

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


back feet in laminitis..

bigwhitevan2002
 

hi friends,
probably a  stupid question but none the less its is a question.
Yesterday I took off Ponys boots so I can replace her styro inserts, went into the barn to cut them out came back into the stall to put them on and Pony had disappeared...I am sharing this because it was so encouraging to see that she had made an escape, albeit only out to the other side of the barn but she had to truck across crushed gravel to do so...... this is exciting to me as she has not been able to bear any weight on her feet with out boots and now she trucks across crushed gravel and by trucks I mean picks her way very slowly to stand by the pasture gate waiting to be turned out with her buddies...:( 

Anyhows, now that I see she can stand on her own two feet...I think good I can finally clean out her back feet have not been able to very often because she just couldn't, 
well her back feet are like caves , I was able to keep digging and digging crumbly white stuff out and it appears as tho she has no frog, just a hoof wall with a very deep cup, doesn't smell, not sore, so I just put some durasole on her backs, and rebooted her fronts...she was mad I didn't let her out to pasture for a reward for walking barefoot over gravel...:)

Farrier cant come out for 2 more weeks he had something come  up, her backs have not been trimmed in forever ........
Question....Is this anything to worry about, we do live in the wettest inhabited place that could ever possibly exist on the planet...( disclaimer, my frame of reference is skewed because I am desert born and bred, so this 9 months of rain gets trying)

my plan is to keep her backs clean and as dry as possible...until she can have a trim...but wondered about the crumbly sole that came off if its just poor hoof care do to not really doing anything with her backs for a while, she normally has rock hard sole on all feet.
Julie 
Oregon 06


Vaccinations & Banamine

larkstabatha
 

Hi... In searching the archives, I see Nancy's past comment on giving Banamine Pre & Post vax.  Is it worthwhile to ask my vet to administer Banamine to my compensated IR mare at the same time she is getting her Tetanus vaccine this week if I am not able to do it Pre and Post?

Thank you,

Sally in N. AZ

April 2013



Alfalfa cubes

Ethlyn Vogler
 

Over the last several months, Dakota (30 yr-old retired Morgan) has become more and more picky about eating. He will not eat TC Senior in quantities that seem large enough to maintain weight, pretty much turns up his nose at his custom balancing supplements in feed, nibbles at hay. (He's on Prascend, but this behavior accompanied compounded pergolide also.) Last week I delivered a bag of alfalfa cubes, soaked them while I groomed him, then offered them, and he seemed to relish them, even soggy (not his favorite), but next day he was again disinterested. Barn owner/caretaker says he will eat them a cup or so at a time, broken into flakes with water poured over, but not to the point of sogginess...she's wondering if this is safe. She would feed him a cup or so 3x a day. He has great teeth and is not an aggressive eater...and even with this hit-and-miss appetite he is in pretty good weight after this horrendous winter. What say, Gurus?

Ethlyn
Michigan
2007

Sent from my iPad


Re: ADM Grostrong Mintrate and high Protein to treat IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Substituting one of these high protein "balancers" for grain in a diet would be a step in the right direction and may be where this idea started but otherwise they are not a treatment for IR. Most are also too high in sugar and starch.

Higher protein may well contribute the insulin response but as Lars pointed out there is not much data on this. We have had owners over the years who reported problems with high protein hays that otherwise should have been tolerated. More work needs to be done.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001





Re: ADM Grostrong Mintrate and high Protein to treat IR

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <dixie6264@...> wrote :
I was asked if I knew anything about a course of high protein being used to treat IR.
 
- - - - -

I would be interested in a response from the experts on this matter too. The studies I have read only points to negative effects of protein for IR horses:

http://wageningenacademic.metapress.com/content/601331200q4208t5/fulltext.pdf

 

This makes me wonder whether the high protein level in spring grass may contribute to the high incidence of laminitis/founder at that time of year.

Here is another study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11263835

 

Lars

Sweden, July 2008


Re: 35 Yr old QH mare died August 2013- Question

skylane@...
 

I can only base my response on what you've written. There could be more to it... 
...You said he couldn't get pergolide from "the compounding pharmacy"...  It's not 
like there's only one pharmacy... there's quite a few and he has to know that.
It's like him saying "I'm sorry I couldn't come out for your emergency because my gas 
station had run out of gas". Ignoring the fact that there's several other gas stations out 
there.
This just sounds WRONG and I'm (to avoid saying pissed) MIFFED!!

Michael~
aka Mike & Spike
San Jose, Ca
Oct 10


Re: Case history for Babe (old horse with PPID)

Lydia Lawson
 

She is doing well considering her age and PPID. the Precend Pergolide seems to have helped her feel a lot better and stronger, however her hind end weakness/pain still keeps her from getting up if she is not on the bute daily. I tried to wean her down and it was not successful, however so far she has not had any adverse effects from it. It just helps her feel better and at this point in her life that is what matters most. I have her on all the other supplements you and Nancy recommended and she sometimes surprises me when she gallops across the pasture or chases the pony! This is the first year she has not shed well. She is still pretty hairy although she is shedding. Just slow compared to the other horses and it's been hot so I keep an eye on her. She will be getting the first follow up ACTH test this week and I am hopeful that will look somewhat better for her. 

Interestingly enough I have another horse getting the same tests. She is only 10 but after a lifetime of being super sound and healthy she has spent the last year battling abscesses in three of her feet and they have been super difficult to heal requiring aggressive surgery etc. Even though she has no signs outwardly of IR and has never foundered and even has nice tight white lines and good looking feet the vet wants to test her for metabolic problems because we have no answer for why this has happened to her. Hoping it's not something serious. Keeping my fingers crossed!


Re: New bloodwork- please advise

 

Hi Lavinia. I had the barn owner set out AM & PM rations & weighed them- Flame is getting approximately 10- 13 pounds of Timothy per feeding. We started soaking it today & Flame does not like it but he will get over it. I have ODBTC on the way & will start them as soon as they arrive. I did contact NuZu and will get Stabul 1 ordered. Since it is a hay replacement does that mean that there is no max per day since I'm using it as a "grain" to supplement his hay & beet pulp? His beet pulp is weighed @ 4 pounds dry. I've also been in contact with a rep from Uckele & am considering doing a hair analysis since my hay analysis situation is so hopeless. How do you feel about hair analysis? Thanks for the recommendation on the copper supplement, I will look into it. I am feeling better about Flame's situation. There is still a lot to do- getting the correct feeds into town & getting him switched over but I feel less confused thanks to you & the others who have commented on my post. Thanks!! Beth & Flame NV Oct 2013


Re: ADM Grostrong Mintrate and high Protein to treat IR

Carol Jacoby
 

Hi Pam,

Keep us posted on the Enrich. I've had more folks try to push this one on me.  I would like to know about the ADM product as I know of some horses who do well on the Staystrong, but they aren't diagnosed IR either.

Thanks,


Re: R.I.P. - Mithrandir's Magik (Alf), July 10, 1987 - April 14, 2014

Ronia Gortsos <rvangage@...>
 

Cindy,
 
May your beloved Alf rest peacefully until you meet again.  We are all connected here and our horses and animals watch over us. Keep your memories alive always in your heart. Alfie will be with you always.
 
 
 
Ronia and Angel Dillie Daydream
 
 
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
 

 


 

 


ADM Grostrong Mintrate and high Protein to treat IR

Pamela Bramell
 

I was asked if I knew anything about a course of high protein being used to treat IR.  In particular, adding Purina Enrich (searched the messages and found out about that) and ADM Grostrong Mintrate.  Apparently some people in a particular area of the country have started using this method to "treat" IR.

Any info on either of these?  I did search the archives for Grostrong Mintrate, but there were no messages. I haven't seen anything about the "high protein" treatment method mentioned, so wanted to ask about that.  Not sure what is meant by "high protein", but the ADM product is 33% protein.  Yikes!

Pam in VA
12/10
With Frosty, Story, Butters, Comanche who is at Beech Tree Farm rehabbing from his uncontrolled IR :)  

86601 - 86620 of 269225