Date   

Re: Feeding the IR horse

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Karen,
Welcome to the group. How was your mare diagnosed? Were you given any instructions on how to manage her by your vet? There are no magic bullets to managing IR. You feed a low sugar/starch forage with minerals balanced to that hay's assay. Its really pretty simple.

The list philosophy is DDT/E. That means DIAGNOSIS, DIET, TRIM and EXERCISE.

DIAGNOSIS is by bloodwork. We recommend having bloodwork of Insulin/Glucose/and Leptin on a NON fastng horse for a true diagnosis. Feed your mare soaked/drained grass hay the night before and the day of the blood draw. Fasting will give you a false low value. Horses are not made to fast ~ they are trickle eaters. As long as you are testing go ahead and have her ACTH tested. At age 29 she could be PPID or starting. Send your bloodwork to Cornell. Cornell is the only lab in the US that tests Leptin.

DIET. Test your hay. We use www.equi-analytical.com and get the Trainer # 603 for $54. This will tell you the minerals in the hay as well as the sugar/starch content. Boarding makes it more interesting! Your barn owner may be very helpful with this ~~or~~ you will have to get very creative about where you store your own tested hay. I don’t know if you've heard of this product but many of us use Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes. It’s a small cube of timothy hay with the minerals and beet pulp already added to it. All you add is Vitamin E, salt and flax seed. Horses LOVE the taste and you can wet it if teeth are a problem. This cube is totally safe and completely balanced. The diet you are presently feeding her is not balanced. I don’t understand ''she can only tolerate 20-25 minutes of grass per day''. What does she do? I would stop the grass. Its high in sugar. I would soak the hay she is eating because that reduces the sugar up to 30%. Then I would put her on the Temporary Emergency DIET in the Start Here file. You can purchase all the ER minerals at Walmart or any drugstore. They are Vitamin E, loose iodized table salt, magnesium and flax seed freshly ground. I would stop the alfalfa ~ its high in calcium which you may not need and it makes some horses foot sore.

TRIM is a balanced foot with toes backed from the top and heels lowered. Boots and pads will make her more comfortable if she's having foot problems.

EXERCISE is excellent for IR if she can handle it. Never force a laminitic horse to move.

Karen, Tell us more about your mare. Please join ECH8, fill out the questionnaire. This really paints a bigger picture for the volunteers to help you. If you type Heiro in the search box you will get lots of information on this product. We do NOT suggest you spend your money on it. It is not a product we endorse.

Here are some links you will find helpful.

http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html

http://www.softrideboots.com/1/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory8

www.equi-analytical.com

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Re: grazing muzzle for movement (and our story)

larkstabatha
 

Something I learned from Linda Winfield Cowles from Whole Horse Health Yahoo Group, that works with the My Best Friend Muzzle, was to take an EasyCare Hoof Boot Comfort Pad and fit it to the inside, bottom of the muzzle, secure it with zip ties and cut a hole (sized to your liking) to further restrict grazing access to a smaller area and longer grass.   Good to have options.


Sally in N. AZ

April 2013


Re: Updating a history in ECHistory5

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Hi Mandy and all,

I finally got the pictures of Cory's trim up. I think I am posting the link here:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710

Hope these pictures are good enough. The white powder on his feet is Goldbond. Didn't know it would be so hard to brush off. Can anyone give me some feedback? My farrier took off about a quarter inch of heel and a little of the toe. When I wouldn't let him put shoes on him, he said he wouldn't be coming back (after 22 years of trimming Cory). I'm so distressed. I also have X-rays if I can figure out how to post them. Please let me know if these aren't good enough and I will get more.

Case history: <http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funder\;
burk%20in%20NC/

Deb Funderburk and Cory
NC July 2012


Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

Emily Phillips
 

"I'm sure there are many here who would be interested in an herbal remedy, which will slow down  tumour growth.  Can you be more specific and link us to the data supporting this statement."

 

No data but anecdotal success from another member on here who had managed to successfully slow down cancer of the mouth on her horse with a remedy put together here in Australia by McDowell's Herbal Treatments:  http://www.herbal-treatments.com.au/

It contained Horsetail, Wormwood, Echinacea, Violet Leaves, Red Clover, Sheeps Sorrel, Comfrey, Pau D'Arco, Burdock, Cats Claw, and Poke Root.

 

She also applied aloe vera gel topically and aloe juice orally.

 

Of note to Dr Kellon's point on other thread, the horse in question had undiagnosed and therefore uncontrolled PPID, which was what very sadly took him in the end with a nasty acute episode of laminitis.

But the vets were amazed at how well his cancerous tumour had been doing - in terms of the speed of progress considerably slowed, giving him years of extra life that they would otherwise not have predicted...

 

I have had no personal experience with herbs but if you are going to wait a few weeks / months Melanie, it might be something that is worth a try with Babe...  Such a terrible position you find yourself in...  I cry for you...  :(

 

Emily and Cheyenne

Jan 2014

Springmount, Victoria, Australia


 

 


Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

aet001@...
 

Chanda, I'm sorry for your pending loss, as well.  Fly free, beloved mare, green grass and blue skies forever.  Amy in PA '06ish (Herbie IR, Darby, lost beloveds on HIH site Echo, Dylan, Pebbles, Cherry, Misty who was C/IR)


---In EquineCushings@..., <chandab@...> wrote :

I'm making this same decision for a mare.  I wanted her to have time out on grass first, yesterday was the first day I opened the pasture, she went out and came right back in.   :(   She'll eat grass that I bring to her, but didn't want to walk around the pasture.    I called the vet yesterday to schedule, but they were out on farm calls, so waiting to call again today.  [Also scheduling 3 gelding proceedures.]

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

aet001@...
 

msgem2003, I've been kind of following this thread but I apologize, I can't recall your name.  I'm so sorry for the need for your decision.  Fly free, Babe, green grass and blue skies forever.  Amy in PA '06ish (Herbie IR, Darby, lost beloveds on HIH site Echo, Dylan, Pebbles, Cherry, Misty who was C/IR)


---In EquineCushings@..., <mbandep@...> wrote :

Update on my pony Babe…

My vet just came by for shots and to check on Babe’s tumor.  I was entertaining the idea of 

I will wait until the pasture is green and lush and my mud is dried up.  Her last few weeks will be on pasture.

msgem2003 and Babe

Brandon, Ms 2006


 


Feeding the IR horse

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi -
My mare is IR and she has been doing well for some time. I have recently read of a supplement "Heiro" - it's a supplement for IR horses. I was wondering if anyone has tried it.
From what I've been able to glean from this site, the best feed is grass hay with minerals to compensate for what the hay is lacking. I have been feeding a horse pellet -"E-Tec" - one cup AM and PM with one cup Alfalfa and Timothy pellets AM and PM also. For the rest, she gets grass hay - two to three flakes of two-wire (square)in summer and in winter pretty much free choice - and she seems to tolerate grass for 20 to 25 minutes per day. I am wondering if I should cut out the pellets. She's 29 years old and the pellets contain microbials, which I thought were needed to help her digestion. Plus they also have vitamins and trace minerals.
Another thing I was wondering was feeding round bales in the winter, since she has pretty much free choice hay anyway. But now I am wondering about that. She has not been on round bales but many boarding places only offer that. However, there are some that use a slow-feed net.
I moved with my horse from Flagstaff, AZ to Maine in 2011 and horse keeping here is very different, and unfortunately, I must board here.
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Karen in Maine
May 2014










---- "threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Some members interested in Nuzu Stabul1 have experienced frustration and disappointment when Tractor Supply could not find the product in their system and complete an order.

As of this week TSC created a direct link between Nuzu's website and their ordering portal. All of the TSC stores have been notified, explaining what Nuzu had to offer.

If you have been one of the disappointed folks, recommend giving your local Tractor Supply a call again.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc




Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

Lorna Cane
 


> Have you done any research on herbal remedies for tumors ?  There are some out there that specifically slow the tumors down.

Hello Lisa,

I'm sure there are many here who would be interested in an herbal remedy, which will slow down  tumour growth .
Can you be more specific and link us to the data supporting this statement.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Nuzu Stabul1 and Tractor Supply

ferne fedeli
 

Thanks for the info, Nancy.  Hopefully, that will make our next order a little easier.  I had to go back and forth between Randy at NUZU and TSC.  Randy was very helpful and we finally compromised on a 20-bag order that we are splitting between 3 of us.  TSC originally wanted us to get a full pallet and then they said 10 bags each at $30+ per bag before taxes, etc.  Our final price is about $30 a bag including tax and shipping.  Not exactly cheap, so hope my gang likes it or I will go back to Triple Crown Lite at about $23 a bag...
Ferne Fedeli
Mendocino County/No. California
4/2010


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 11:57 AM, threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

Some members interested in Nuzu Stabul1 have experienced frustration and disappointment when Tractor Supply could not find the product in their system and complete an order.

As of this week TSC created a direct link between Nuzu's website and their ordering portal. All of the TSC stores have been notified, explaining what Nuzu had to offer.

If you have been one of the disappointed folks, recommend giving your local Tractor Supply a call again.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 






Re: Got my ODTBs. Now what? And some musings.

Nancy C
 

Hi Jenelle

You are doing a fabulous job for Tsunni! I'm really impressed.

I wish we could clone your vet.  Yes, you have a treasure.

Your plan to start the APF prior and to titrate onto the Prascend sounds good. When my gelding started pergolide, I gave him the APF for a few days, maybe a week,  prior.  No issues transitioning on.

Good job!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc




---In EquineCushings@..., <jeninmn@...> wrote :
Jenelle H.
and Tsunni (Love Tstori, 1987 Arab mare, {Sanbara Tsali x L Love})
Hennepin County, MN
Joined December 2011


Nuzu Stabul1 and Tractor Supply

Nancy C
 

Some members interested in Nuzu Stabul1 have experienced frustration and disappointment when Tractor Supply could not find the product in their system and complete an order.

As of this week TSC created a direct link between Nuzu's website and their ordering portal. All of the TSC stores have been notified, explaining what Nuzu had to offer.

If you have been one of the disappointed folks, recommend giving your local Tractor Supply a call again.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 





Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

Nancy C
 

We have sen our share of cancer patients here.  For those who are struggling with both ppid and cancer, it's really important to make sure the diagnosis is made correctly and the  disease is controlled.

This is from an archived post and also has an good reference resource but teh URL has changed.  Use the one below.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/143045

 

******************************************************
There's a good brief overview including treatment options and prognosis here:

https://www.acvs.org/large-animal/skin-tumors-horses

As far as I know, there haven't been any studies looking at PPID and cancer risk, but it is well known that cortisol weakens the sophisticated arm of the immune system that is involved in recognizing malignancies. Pergolide treatment should have no effect directly on the tumor one way or another, but well controlled PPID ameliorates the negative immune system effects.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


***********************************

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 


Need lots of info........

Tabie Reed
 

I just bought  a barrel gelding and he has
Cushings I want to know the best treatment since the people I bought him from were unawre of the issue. I have shaved him but he has grown allot of that back. I am going to put him on the Pergolide. I want to know any symptoms I can look for with giving that I have had him on a natural supplement but no help. Will he have more energy with the Pergolide? Any helpful info would be great



ODTBC as treats

cathi cline
 

This has my primary training reinforcer for my Fell pony for over a year.

I began using one cube = one treat.  I am a clicker trainer so feed a lot of treats for training ( 80 to 120 per day). Gradually I have broken the cubes into flakes to lower the volume of food. Most cubes will give me 3 or 4 treats.

My pony LOVES them even after a year of receiving them every day.

Cathi Cline and Olympus since Oct 2013
Sacramento, CA


Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

Chanda
 

I'm making this same decision for a mare.  I wanted her to have time out on grass first, yesterday was the first day I opened the pasture, she went out and came right back in.   :(   She'll eat grass that I bring to her, but didn't want to walk around the pasture.    I called the vet yesterday to schedule, but they were out on farm calls, so waiting to call again today.  [Also scheduling 3 gelding proceedures.]

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

Lisa M. Koch
 

So Sorry to hear this about Babe.  Have you done any research on herbal remedies for tumors ?  There are some out there that specifically slow the tumors down. Someone on another site is treating her horse with them successfully.

Good luck to you.

Lisa M. Koch & Ginger
Member 2003
Long Island, NY


Re: Is it time to put my pony down?

mbandep@...
 

Update on my pony Babe…

My vet just came by for shots and to check on Babe’s tumor.  I was entertaining the idea of removing the tumor and seeing how she did with one more winter. 

The cancer is more aggressive then he first thought.  The tumor has grown and has involved tissue that would make it difficult to remove.  It is also spreading so my vet is recommending we euthanize Babe and he feels it would not be kind to try to get through another winter.

I will wait until the pasture is green and lush and my mud is dried up.  Her last few weeks will be on pasture.

msgem2003 and Babe

Brandon, Ms 2006

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/MsGem2003%20and%20Babe/

 


Re: Got my ODTBs. Now what? And some musings.

jeninmn@...
 

I have made a discovery about the ODTBs with my horses. Although they weren't all over them as feed, they LOVED them as a hand-fed treat. Or even a treat dropped into their feedpans! Probably, as you mentioned, if it is fed from the hand, it HAS to be good, right? Those two mares LOVED these as treats and my gelding thought they weren't half bad either. The mares were all over me like a bad habit after I fed them some. I think I will keep this info in mind if I have issues with Tsunni's appetite going off once we start the pergolide! 

As far as that goes, I spoke to my vet yesterday. Apparently he never got the message I left for him last week, so I am glad I called again. We had a discussion about starting with the Prascend I have and then seeing where we go from there. He suggested getting her to 1mg and watch for visible changes. If there are visible changes, we'll pull blood close to fall to see if the chemistry looks good too. If not, I call him and we'll probably up it to 2mg and so on. Apparently they use Cornell for most of their labs and have a great working relationship with them so, though I didn't ask, I imagine they know about the shipping label discount. They didn't automatically send me a hard copy of the results and I told them that was OK. I'll swing up there sometime to pick them up. I learned that they did, however, ONLY check ACTH. My vet also said that if the Prascend I have seems to help Tsunni, that I should check around for pricing variations and then research whether I would prefer to stick with that or transition to a compounded pergolide. He said when I have done that he will write the prescription for whatever I decide will be best for me and let me fill it wherever I want. See why I use this vet? I love this guy! There are several vets working out of this clinic and all are good, but for serious stuff, I always request him. So I call him MY vet. 

I picked up some APF yesterday afternoon (I live near United Vet Equine so could just drive over and get some!) and added it to Tsunni's PM feeding. I also have it in her PM feed for today. I wanted her at least exposed to it prior to starting the pergolide. One thing at a time and all that. This evening when I get home from work, I am going to give her 0.25mg of the Prascend. I did not want to start yesterday as today is my long day at work. I want to be there to observe her behavior upon starting. My in-laws are there, but I would rather see with my own eyes. This way, I'll have all weekend to observe her. I took out a capsule last evening and, upon contemplation, I decided to just try cutting it up rather than try to dissolve it in a little water. I have 4 relatively even pieces now. One is a little bigger than the rest, so I figured I would start with the smallest and then work up. I am going to try half of a prune as a treat and then put the pill in the remaining half if she likes that. In my experience with this horse, if she likes a treat it is the 2nd installment that is least likely to be spit out! If she spits the prune out, I try plan B. Even though I don't have a plan B yet. My goal is to use up this pill at ~0.25mg/day (so 4 days), then do 1/2 pill or 0.5mg/day for 2 pills (4 days) then move up to a whole pill. Given, of course, that she has no problems as we progress though.

I'll post updates if I see any troubles this weekend. Got my fingers crossed for an event-free weekend!

Jenelle H.
and Tsunni (Love Tstori, 1987 Arab mare, {Sanbara Tsali x L Love})
Hennepin County, MN
Joined December 2011


Re: List etiquette?

HRH <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

Oops I already responded to this did not realize it was a group message. Sorry Nancy!

- LeeAnne 
Sent from my iPhone •€|:-) 
<\__~
  // \\ :.

On 2014-05-16, at 6:54 AM, "Nancy Collins threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Hi Karen

Very glad to know you are a member of ECIR Group.  We'd love to have you post questions on the list.  The only down side might be that you may be asked that eternal question - can yo give us a case history?  I know that can prove problematic but you may still get some info or resources to check.

Two additional resources might be Dr Kellon's ezine, The Horses Mouth and/or her PPID/IR course (and others).  You may get info for all her courses and the ezine at drkellon.com.


Looking forward to your questions.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

On May 15, 2014, at 4:18 PM, kfrogner@... [EquineCushings] wrote:

Hi,
I have been following the list for awhile and have learned a lot and enjoy the 'no nonsense' forum.
Sometime's I have questions I'd like to post but my situation is a little different than most on the list, in that I do not have a horse with PPID or IR. I am a Veterinary Technician in an Equine practice, so I see many cases of both. I am wondering if I could still post questions, or is there another list that you know of that would be more appropriate?
Thank you,
Karen Frogner
Molalla, Or.
2013

Sent from my iPad


Re: Recent Cushing's Diagnosis

Nancy C
 

Diane and Cathy

>I am debating on how to proceed. I have had people tell me that they tried Pergolide and >it helped for awhile and then it doesn't. They also stated they had problems with founder >while on Pergolide. I am concerned about side-effects and what risks are associated >with treatment with this med. I am also interested in alternative treatments.

This is not the experience of members of this list who approach this  issue via DDT+E as outlined.  Founder is not brought on by pergolide. Side effects, if any are transient and can be managed if not avoided compeltely by following careful diagnosis, careful titration of the drug and support via an adaptogen if needed. (We can give you more info on this as you go along)

It is unfortunate that a lot of  the equine community does not know this.

Totally agree with Mandy and Maggie.  Untreating PPID is not advised. Laminitis is only one of a whole host of issues that untreated horses are subjected to:  infections, worm, bug, skin issues, lethargy, and just feeling crappy.  It's not a pleasant way to spend the last of your days.

If you follow the path outlined, your horses can have healthy and productive lives.

Lots more on our web site ecirhorse.org.

As it happens we're also exploring pergolide myths and facts in weekly sound bytes on Facebook.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <spiral1957@...> wrote :

Hi Cathy and Dianne,

Please note that the goal of this group is NO LAMINITIS--ever! 

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