Date   

Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

Lorna Cane
 


>I need to know whether or not to feed he Wheybolic from GNC.  Should we maybe wait and see what the protein content is with this new hay before I discontinue giving it to him?

Hi Laura,

I think you've missed Nancy's message from today.

Don't forget to trim the old messages from you posts.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc








 



 



Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

afrazier726@...
 

Susan,

What if soaking longer is your only option?What I do is I soak my morning feeding the night before for an hour or so, then I take it out and hang it somewhere for the water to run out before I feed it to my mare the next morning. 

Sometimes its not feasible to sit there and wait for it to soak for only an hour. Would you say that soaking longer than an hour is still a better option than NOT soaking at all when you have and IR horse? 

Just curious about your thoughts on this. It's pretty gross to see all the sugar and dirt that turns the water brownish color! 

Thanks

Amy 
Lakeview Terrace, CA
May 2014


Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

palomino.1982@...
 

Laura:

Just adding this in case you are soaking for longer than 1 hour:

In files: Hay information

Soaking should be done for at least one hour with cold water or ½ hour with hot water, then the water drained off where the horses can’t get to it (the water now contains all those carbs you leached out of the hay).  Do NOT soak for longer than 1 hour.

 

In warm weather, soaking longer or leaving tightly packed wet hay out for long periods can cause heat/fermentation; in colder weather this is not as apt to be a problem.



Susan

EC Primary Response

Oceanside, CA 2007


_____________________________________________ 






Started soaking the hay last night.  I got an Igloo cooler that has 2 wheels, a drain, and an expandible handle that fits 2 big flakes perfectly.  I just add the water and close the lid.  An hour or so before going home I make up his dinner.  I make up his morning hay before I leave in the p.m.   This set up is great because I can wheel the cooler to where I need to drain off the water.  It's easily wheeled inside his pen for feeding.  He even loved eating from the cooler!


Thanks!
Laura M in CA
1/2012


   






Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...

Preview by Yahoo

 





 



Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

lauramollrich
 

I am coring the hay today, hopefully by Friday I will have the results.  At that time I would need help again for balanced minerals.  

Started soaking the hay last night.  I got an Igloo cooler that has 2 wheels, a drain, and an expandible handle that fits 2 big flakes perfectly.  I just add the water and close the lid.  An hour or so before going home I make up his dinner.  I make up his morning hay before I leave in the p.m.   This set up is great because I can wheel the cooler to where I need to drain off the water.  It's easily wheeled inside his pen for feeding.  He even loved eating from the cooler!

He's getting celery with his Pergolide--no more mints or candy of any kind.  

I need to know whether or not to feed he Wheybolic from GNC.  Should we maybe wait and see what the protein content is with this new hay before I discontinue giving it to him?

Thanks!
Laura M in CA
1/2012


   


On Monday, June 9, 2014 6:27 AM, "threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 

Hi Laura

On the run...this may come through twice.

Make sure you read Dr Kellon's message again.

He's got plenty of protein in the last hay, the extra amino acids in your custom mix and the whey.  Plenty. You may not even need the whey now but, unless Dr Kellon corrects me,   I think I'd leave that alone because he is so happy! 

Test your new  hay.

It's not the ivermectin.

Probably not the peppermint but good that he likes celery.

Some folks believe the sugar can be driven back into the BP if it sits too long soaking.  I did not find that to be so when soaking hay overnight two years ago. Alterntive would be to make up several servings at once, freeze the individual bags, take to the barn daily when you go,  and put in fridge or a cooler next to his stall to defrost.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...
Preview by Yahoo
 





 



New Blood Test Results and Need Help Posting to History

Deborah Ide
 

I just received Tara's newest blood test results: Insulin 14.42ulU/mL(Reference Interval 10-40),Glucose 85mg/dl(reference Interval 71-113), Leptin 3.34ng/mL(Reference Interval 1-4) and I also had an iron test done: 183ug/dL(Reference Interval 75-206).

 Looking at the IR Calculator it shows G:I Ratio is 5.89,RISQI is 0.26, MIRG is 7.64, Compensated IR/Laminitis Risk, and the Leptin Range is Low.

 I went to her History and it looks like there is no room to post the new results and keep the two previous test date results on there.

 Also, not sure where to put the iron test results as History shows a place for KSU Iron Panel but that wasn't what I had done. I just asked the vet to check her iron. Maybe that result should be entered under the place where I put the Insulin,Glucose and Leptin results?

 Should I delete the results and information regarding things like body condition scoring, etc.. and anything else that has changed from 2013 (I have a hard copy of them) or is there a way to add the new ones by adding spaces for the new information? Sorry, can't recall what I did to update last year. Thanks for any guidance in this.

Deborah
Connecticut
Nov. 2012
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Connecticut/

 




Hay testing help

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians
 

Could someone please look at the hay testing results and let me know what the total sugar are. I know they are suppose to be less than 10%, but I am not sure how to read this.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Joyce-Minnesota/

Thank you,
Joyce Firkus- Minnesota
Helping a friend, who's mare foundered. The horse is located in SD.


Re: Low postprandial insulin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The insulin is normal. It's not diabetes when the glucose is normal. Insulin is never too low if glucose is normal.

Donkeys gain weight easily so the IR diet is ideal. It's important to avoid stress and keep food available at all times to avoid hyperlipemia. The hyperlipemia itself can be life threatening and can also cause IR to develop.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: Low postprandial insulin

Nancy C
 

This is the file I was looking for on hyperlipedemia

Yahoo Groups

 

Next time you run blood work you could also do a CBC and Chem panel and include tryglycerides.


Nancy C in NH

ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc





Re: Low postprandial insulin

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

Assuming your desired weight is correct, agree four pounds is probably not enough.  Also agree with Lorna your low insulin is often handling error.

Diabetes in horses is not the same as in people. So far, horses seem to have an inexhaustible pancreas.  What happens is the insulin still remains high but the glucose is no longer in control. I have one of those.

Can you provide a link to your Case History so we can see exactly what is going on? It saves us a whole bunch of time.

Try this link for more info on tryglycerides:
Yahoo Groups

 


Yahoo Groups

 



Yahoo Groups

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc





Re: More info on APF?

Lorna Cane
 


Yes.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc



>Just curious, does APF help humans?



 


Re: More info on APF?

Carol
 

Just curious, does APF help humans?

Carol and Rossi in Maryland 2003




Re: Low postprandial insulin

Chanda
 

Does he have decent body condition at that 350#?    4# of feed for 350# body weight isn't enough feed; that's only a little over 1% of his bodyweight in hay daily, if that's all he's getting he's not getting enough feed (if that's just his hay portion and he's getting something else too, then he might be getting enough).   Horses need 1.5-2% of their body weight in feed per day for normal bodily functions and holding weight; I know donkeys are easy keepers, so probably the low end of that.   1.5% of 350# is 5.25#

My mini donkey won't get on the scale so I don't know what she weighs, but is decent weight for her size. But, being a donkey she has a different shape than the horses; a bit of a belly with slimmer topline and that seems to be more normal for donkeys.    She's a long hair donkey, so I have to put my hands on her to make sure she's not carrying fat pads or getting skinny.

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Low postprandial insulin

beverly meyer
 

Dr. Kellon,
Can you clarify re. donkey low insulin?
You said "when stressed by anything that decreases their eating to below their calorie requirement, they mobilize fat.."
But he eats well (not too well) so I'm unclear about "underfeeding" him as the cause of high fats, high triglycerides and therefore IR.
If he is eating enough, what else could cause the low insulin in a well, but heavy neck roll donkey?
He's 350 pounds and gets 4 pounds hay. (Now starting ODTB and BP). Always seems a little overweight to me.
Thanks very much,
Beverly 5/14
Fred and Ginger

--


Re: More info on APF?

dshoenfelt@...
 

Thanks for the info.  I'm convinced enough to give it a try.  Just ordered a bottle.
Thriving pets had the best price.

Dianne and Ellie
South Central PA
May 2014


Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

Nancy C
 


Hi Laura

On the run...this may come through twice.

Make sure you read Dr Kellon's message again.

He's got plenty of protein in the last hay, the extra amino acids in your custom mix and the whey.  Plenty. You may not even need the whey now but, unless Dr Kellon corrects me,   I think I'd leave that alone because he is so happy! 

Test your new  hay.

It's not the ivermectin.

Probably not the peppermint but good that he likes celery.

Some folks believe the sugar can be driven back into the BP if it sits too long soaking.  I did not find that to be so when soaking hay overnight two years ago. Alterntive would be to make up several servings at once, freeze the individual bags, take to the barn daily when you go,  and put in fridge or a cooler next to his stall to defrost.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






 


Re: More info on APF?

Nancy C
 

Hi Diane



Dr Kellon did trials which I believe were written about in Horse Journal. There is also info in the archives, just a sample of which is below.

It does not replace getting the diagnosis right, getting teh diet right or getting the trim right.  It is a hugely helpful product once the rest is in place.



http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/12860 May 26, 2002
Putting together an article on causes of (Cushing's and not), and
treatment/management approaches for, insulin resistance.


http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/24126 Mar 27, 2003
As far as supplements go, some are using the adaptogen herbal extract APF with good results. These herbs modify the body's response to stress such that cortisol release with heavy stress is dampened.

APF, adaptogen Review
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/65403 Fri Jul 22, 2005
APF is *NOT* a substitute for pergolide, or for diet, and should not be used unless you are monitoring blood work IMO, but it may prove to be a valuable tool in cases that are difficult to control.

Also see ADAPTOGENS in the FILES section which explains why and when adaptogens do and don't work.


The Van Noys are huge supporters of the work of this group and also very helpful if you call or write the company.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


---In EquineCushings@..., <dshoenfelt@...> wrote :

Could someone please direct me to the testing/clinical trials/and/or scientific information about APF?

Thanks,
Dianne
South Central PA
May 2014


 


Re: Hay testing help

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians
 

Thank you Lavinia, I will make a file over at EChistory8. How do I find out when I joined the group?

Thank you,
Joyce Firkus-MN


More info on APF?

dshoenfelt@...
 

I'm considering starting my mare on APF for the Pergolide Veil.

I've read the testimonials, ingredient list etc, but have been looking for some information on clinical research and an explanation of just how and why it works.

Could someone please direct me to the testing/clinical trials/and/or scientific information about APF?

Thanks,
Dianne
South Central PA
May 2014



Re: Hay testing help

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Joyce,

Sorry, attachments aren't allowed here. You can either join ECHistory8, create a folder ans put the analysis in there or just post the ESC and Starch values. You want ESC + Starch to be less than 10% and no alfalfa.

Would you please add your general location and year of joining to your signature in the future - helps us to answer better. Appreciate your assistance with this.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Please advise Cornell blood results for Busy

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

Glad to hear Busy is doing well.

That ACTH is much higher than I would be comfortable with at this time of year - it should be in the middle of the range as we are in the time of year when it should be at its lowest. If this was one of mine I would up the perg to 1mg now and plan to go to at least 2mg for the seasonal period. Your goal is to stay solidly within the middle range at all times.

The calculator for the ratios is here:

IR Calculator

Just plug your numbers into it as is and it does the work for you.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>
I have updated his history and it can be found at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/files/Business%20Image%20%28Busy%29/

 


ACTH 37.9 pg/mL  reference 9 - 35
Insulin 55.61 ulU/mL reference 10 - 40
His glucose was 5.2 taken horse side with a human glucometer from the blood sample.

He is on .5 mg of pergolide until the end of July when I would increase for the seasonal rise to 1 mg.

98501 - 98520 of 282200