Date   

Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Soaking hay for longer than an hour...in hot/humid summer weather can ferment the hay and likely drive the leached sugar and iron back into the hay.
= = = = = = = = = =

Just to expand a little bit, fermentation is indeed a threat but varies considerably in how long it takes to set in. Hay soaking in a cooler will "keep" considerably longer. Fermentation = overgrowth of organisms and is undesirable for that reason. It won't drive sugar or iron back into the hay though. Sugar in fact will drop because it is the sugar that is being fermented. It's theoretically possible that if there was a large drop in pH that iron on the surface could become more soluble and could enter the hay if the level in the water was higher than in the hay but this is not likely with most hays. The pH of the soaking water is more likely to be a factor.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Coowner
Feb 2001



Re: Diet for non-IR horse?

Nancy C
 

Hi Dian

You can significantly up the amount of hay.  it appears that you are feeding less than 2% body weight per day.  TBs need even more and can be 2.5 to 3 percent, especially if working, for example.

You need to test your hay and balance.  Hope you are off the Dynamite.

There is also a Senior Diet put together by Dr Kellon, in the FILES, for horses that are PPID and not IR.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc



---In EquineCushings@..., <dshoenfelt@...> wrote :



Right now, Ellie is on hay, timothy pellets and beet pulp with ground flax. 

She is up to 2mg of Prascend now, perhaps that is why she is off her feed, although she shows no other signs of the pergolide veil.  I've ordered APF and can't wait to start it.  I'm not sure what else to do at this point?




Re: More info on APF?

Lorna Cane
 


It's good for humans.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Diet for non-IR horse?

dshoenfelt@...
 

My horse is PPID with ACTH level of 181.  She is not IR.  Insulin was 5.26.  Vet agrees she is not IR.

I still have her on a low starch/ IR type diet anyway because I cannot find any info on just what to do for a PPID horse that is not also IR, and not having any foot issues.  (No laminitis ever, great healthy feet, always done in a natural trim/mustang roll, no shoes etc)

It seems that dietary-wise the concern is to prevent founder/laminitis attack.  If that just isn't an issue for us, is the emergency diet still essential?

Right now, Ellie is on hay, timothy pellets and beet pulp with ground flax.  She hates it.  Her appetite is terrible and she wants nothing to do with this soaked feed.  She is very thin, no topline and still losing weight.  I'm desperate to get weight on her and I hate to see her not eating.  I've tried flavoring the soaked feed.  She still won't eat it.  I'm getting scared for her, and frustrated too.

She is up to 2mg of Prascend now, perhaps that is why she is off her feed, although she shows no other signs of the pergolide veil.  I've ordered APF and can't wait to start it.  I'm not sure what else to do at this point?

Dianne and Ellie
South Central PA
May 2014
Yahoo Groups

 




Re: More info on APF?

dshoenfelt@...
 

I'd be interested in finding out if its good for humans too.  It sounds like I could use it myself!

I may try some on myself, it wouldn't be the first time I've taken a horse supplement!

I really hope its as good as everyone says it is.  It almost sounds too good to be true, which has me a bit worried that maybe it is?

Dianne and Ellie
South Central PA
May 2014


Re: New Blood Test Results and Need Help Posting to History

Maggie
 

Hi Deborah,

You should be able to click in those spaces where your you initially wrote information and add new information--another row of lab values, info regarding body condition, etc.  Just put the date and the updated information in on the copy you have on your hard drive and then upload the new case history with the new information into your CH file.  You cannot do it online, as it will not save your new information.  Ask me how I know this!  Once you have updated all the information on your hard drive copy and save it, then go back to ECH7 and upload the new CH to your file and delete the old one. 

The reason that there is no place to put your iron test results is that KSU is the only place that can do all 3 tests, (including a ferritin level) required to test for iron overload.  You can put your iron test in the those spaces and just put a note in the far left column where the test was done.  Make sure you change the lab reference units and ranges if they are different. 

Hope that helps!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/

.


Re: Hay testing help

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Joyce,

Just to add to Susan's response - we do not recommend alfalfa at all as many horses become footsore on it even when the ESC + Starch is well under 10%. Esp would not use it with a foundered horse.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>
Bag1-Alfalfa mix:
ESC ( sugar ) 9.4
Starch 1.1

Add together and you have over 10% ESC+Starch= 10.5%  Would say DO NOT FEED to a foundered horse.



Re: Hay testing help

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Hi Joyce,

You joined in June, 2006.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

palomino.1982@...
 

Hi Amy-

Keeping fingers crossed that the 3rd time is the charm in replying...........( I truly hate Neo !)

Soaking hay for longer than an hour...in hot/humid summer weather can ferment the hay and likely drive the leached sugar and iron back into the hay.

Sounds like you are soaking the hay in a hay net, then hanging to drip dry.  Again, so much depends on your temperature and climate influences.

Not sure if this is in the files..Neo will not let me 'search' and post at the same time.

I remember a member made a low platform, covered it with screening/mesh and spread the soaked hay on top to allow it to dry .  Maybe a possibility.

Other option is to soak in hot water for 1/2 hour.

What is the sugar (ESC ) /starch of this hay?

Susan
EC Primary Response
Oceanside,CA 2007








Re: Hay testing help

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians
 

Thank you Susan. The horse is in South Dakota.  I have been trying to get her to join, but haven't had much luck. I will send on the information, and hopefully open the door for a change of mind.

Thanks again,
Joyce - Minnesota


Re: Hay testing help

palomino.1982@...
 

Hi Joyce-

As far as the 2 hay analysis:

Bag1-Alfalfa mix:
ESC ( sugar ) 9.4
Starch 1.1

Add together and you have over 10% ESC+Starch= 10.5%  Would say DO NOT FEED to a foundered horse.

Bag 2 analysis:
ESC 4.8%
Starch: 0.7

ESC + Starch=5.5%.. This is good to feed

However, the hay needs to be balanced with appropriate minerals.

Has your friend with this foundered horse joined the group for help?  Hard for us to REALLY be of beneficial help without seeing a bigger picture ( age/breed/ xrays/hoof photos/diet)

Is SD ~ S. Dakota or San Diego?


Susan
EC Primary Response
Oceanside, CA 2007




Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

Nancy C
 

DISCLAIMER:  this is my personal experience.

I soaked way longer than one hour in the igloo cooler described.  Mileage my vary in different climates, however the igloo kept the water from freezing in 22 below zero and from getting warm and giving off the beer smell in several days of 90+ degree heat. 

Laura, see previous message re:whey.  Be vigilant.  I hope it works for you.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc



---In EquineCushings@..., <palomino.1982@...> wrote :




 

In warm weather, soaking longer or leaving tightly packed wet hay out for long periods can cause heat/fermentation; in colder weather this is not as apt to be a problem.



_______________ 











   






Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...

Preview by Yahoo

 





 



Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

Lorna Cane
 


>I need to know whether or not to feed he Wheybolic from GNC.  Should we maybe wait and see what the protein content is with this new hay before I discontinue giving it to him?

Hi Laura,

I think you've missed Nancy's message from today.

Don't forget to trim the old messages from you posts.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc








 



 



Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

afrazier726@...
 

Susan,

What if soaking longer is your only option?What I do is I soak my morning feeding the night before for an hour or so, then I take it out and hang it somewhere for the water to run out before I feed it to my mare the next morning. 

Sometimes its not feasible to sit there and wait for it to soak for only an hour. Would you say that soaking longer than an hour is still a better option than NOT soaking at all when you have and IR horse? 

Just curious about your thoughts on this. It's pretty gross to see all the sugar and dirt that turns the water brownish color! 

Thanks

Amy 
Lakeview Terrace, CA
May 2014


Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

palomino.1982@...
 

Laura:

Just adding this in case you are soaking for longer than 1 hour:

In files: Hay information

Soaking should be done for at least one hour with cold water or ½ hour with hot water, then the water drained off where the horses can’t get to it (the water now contains all those carbs you leached out of the hay).  Do NOT soak for longer than 1 hour.

 

In warm weather, soaking longer or leaving tightly packed wet hay out for long periods can cause heat/fermentation; in colder weather this is not as apt to be a problem.



Susan

EC Primary Response

Oceanside, CA 2007


_____________________________________________ 






Started soaking the hay last night.  I got an Igloo cooler that has 2 wheels, a drain, and an expandible handle that fits 2 big flakes perfectly.  I just add the water and close the lid.  An hour or so before going home I make up his dinner.  I make up his morning hay before I leave in the p.m.   This set up is great because I can wheel the cooler to where I need to drain off the water.  It's easily wheeled inside his pen for feeding.  He even loved eating from the cooler!


Thanks!
Laura M in CA
1/2012


   






Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...

Preview by Yahoo

 





 



Re: Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help

lauramollrich
 

I am coring the hay today, hopefully by Friday I will have the results.  At that time I would need help again for balanced minerals.  

Started soaking the hay last night.  I got an Igloo cooler that has 2 wheels, a drain, and an expandible handle that fits 2 big flakes perfectly.  I just add the water and close the lid.  An hour or so before going home I make up his dinner.  I make up his morning hay before I leave in the p.m.   This set up is great because I can wheel the cooler to where I need to drain off the water.  It's easily wheeled inside his pen for feeding.  He even loved eating from the cooler!

He's getting celery with his Pergolide--no more mints or candy of any kind.  

I need to know whether or not to feed he Wheybolic from GNC.  Should we maybe wait and see what the protein content is with this new hay before I discontinue giving it to him?

Thanks!
Laura M in CA
1/2012


   


On Monday, June 9, 2014 6:27 AM, "threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 

Hi Laura

On the run...this may come through twice.

Make sure you read Dr Kellon's message again.

He's got plenty of protein in the last hay, the extra amino acids in your custom mix and the whey.  Plenty. You may not even need the whey now but, unless Dr Kellon corrects me,   I think I'd leave that alone because he is so happy! 

Test your new  hay.

It's not the ivermectin.

Probably not the peppermint but good that he likes celery.

Some folks believe the sugar can be driven back into the BP if it sits too long soaking.  I did not find that to be so when soaking hay overnight two years ago. Alterntive would be to make up several servings at once, freeze the individual bags, take to the barn daily when you go,  and put in fridge or a cooler next to his stall to defrost.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...
Preview by Yahoo
 





 



New Blood Test Results and Need Help Posting to History

Deborah Ide
 

I just received Tara's newest blood test results: Insulin 14.42ulU/mL(Reference Interval 10-40),Glucose 85mg/dl(reference Interval 71-113), Leptin 3.34ng/mL(Reference Interval 1-4) and I also had an iron test done: 183ug/dL(Reference Interval 75-206).

 Looking at the IR Calculator it shows G:I Ratio is 5.89,RISQI is 0.26, MIRG is 7.64, Compensated IR/Laminitis Risk, and the Leptin Range is Low.

 I went to her History and it looks like there is no room to post the new results and keep the two previous test date results on there.

 Also, not sure where to put the iron test results as History shows a place for KSU Iron Panel but that wasn't what I had done. I just asked the vet to check her iron. Maybe that result should be entered under the place where I put the Insulin,Glucose and Leptin results?

 Should I delete the results and information regarding things like body condition scoring, etc.. and anything else that has changed from 2013 (I have a hard copy of them) or is there a way to add the new ones by adding spaces for the new information? Sorry, can't recall what I did to update last year. Thanks for any guidance in this.

Deborah
Connecticut
Nov. 2012
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Connecticut/

 




Hay testing help

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians
 

Could someone please look at the hay testing results and let me know what the total sugar are. I know they are suppose to be less than 10%, but I am not sure how to read this.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Joyce-Minnesota/

Thank you,
Joyce Firkus- Minnesota
Helping a friend, who's mare foundered. The horse is located in SD.


Re: Low postprandial insulin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The insulin is normal. It's not diabetes when the glucose is normal. Insulin is never too low if glucose is normal.

Donkeys gain weight easily so the IR diet is ideal. It's important to avoid stress and keep food available at all times to avoid hyperlipemia. The hyperlipemia itself can be life threatening and can also cause IR to develop.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: Low postprandial insulin

Nancy C
 

This is the file I was looking for on hyperlipedemia

Yahoo Groups

 

Next time you run blood work you could also do a CBC and Chem panel and include tryglycerides.


Nancy C in NH

ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc




96381 - 96400 of 280092