Date   

Re: Hay problem

Lorna Cane
 

HI Sue,

Yes,from Lois.

Soy meal is not recommended.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


 
 


Soy Hulls Availability?

Sue
 

So if Masterfeeds is polluting our soy hulls with corn, is there another company even in Northern New York State that has soy hulls?

Feedstore to your Door sells them but they are in Alberta and she said that she ships a pallet at a time!

She suggested that I contact her supplier , Otter Co-Op in Abbotsford  BC!

I will keep looking!

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010  


Re: Hay problem

Sue
 

Thanks, that is good to know.

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010


Re: Hay problem

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,


Yes, there is a difference. You cannot substitute soy meal for soy hulls. Two very different things.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



 


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Sorry, would help if I added the link...


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums/1195088691


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





 

 


Re: Hay problem

Sue
 

Hi Lorna,

Thanks for the heads up.  I do use Masterfeeds  I will have Ashley check them I trusted that she would but you never know.  Do you get yours from Lois?

Reta is using soy meal is there a difference?

Sue and Busy
Kingston,ON
October 2010
 


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


See you got two pics of Amelia's feet up - thanks. I added a quick mark-up on the RF for you to give you an idea of where the trim needs to be for that foot. The LF looks to also have some wedge but as the heels are higher and the dorsal wall is steeper the toe isn't as far out in front of her. She has what is called high-lo syndrome, which means one foot is more upright and boxy while the other is lower, flatter and wider. This is likely a trimming rather than a conformational issue. The new growth at the very top of the hoof capsule, right below the coronary band, is coming in at a steeper angle that is mirroring the location and angle of the coffin bone. As it grows down, it is being pulled away from it's correct location by the length of the overgrown toe. Totally correctable.


The green line is showing the wedge material that exists. This is not new but has developed over time. Wedge is like scar tissue that the hoof puts down to help cement the wall to the underlying tissues to try to hold it all together. It is not as strong as good laminar connections but is better than no thing at all. The blue lines are where you would like the trim to be occurring to lower her heels and bring that toe back under her. Can give you more specific recommendations when you get the sole and front shots up.


Do you have any xrays of her feet? If not, it might be wise to get some if they are in the budget. Regardless, could really use a more complete set of pics ala the link I gave you earlier.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



 

 


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Melodie,
Welcome to the list.   You have a smart trimmer!   You will see that our philosophy is quite simple.  Its DDT/E.  IF you do all 4 at the same time you will see improvement in your mare.    DDT/E means,  DIAGNOSIS,  DIET,   TRIM   and EXERCISE.  
 
But first we need you to join the ECH8 group which is our medical file.   There is a questionnaire to answer.  The answers paint a broader picture for the volunteers to read , interpret and advise you with.    Here is the link:
 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info
 
DIAGNOSIS is by bloodwork.   Your mare probably is not Cushings because of her age.  We are going into the seasonal rise very soon so testing her for a baseline now could probably wait.   BUT!  we have found that some horses can be ‘fed into a state of IR’.   By testing her Insulin/Glucose and Leptin  NON fasting ~~ will tell you if IR is involved.   Skinny horses can be IR as well as fat ones.     What you can do is have your vet come out early in the week to pull blood for these 3 tests.   Feed her grass hay that is low sugar/starch or if you don’t have an analysis,  soak her hay for one hour (no more) and then drain it.   Feed her this hay the night before the test and the day of the test.  We need to see what her insulin is on low sugar/starch feed.   Do NOT give her bucket feed. ..just hay.   Have your vet spin/separate the blood within  4 hours of the draw and freeze the serum.  Ship it overnight air to Cornell,  in NY.   You want this serum to get to the lab before Friday.  
 
DIET is low sugar/starch forage with minerals balanced to that hay’s assay.   This can be a little bit of a challenge buying, storing and boarding but it can be done!    We recommend under 10% sugar/starch a day.  So the TC Senior you’ve been feeding comes in at 13.2% which is higher than we recommend.  TC Lite is a better choice at 9.5%.   Infact,  rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is the best choice.  It has a similar mineral profile as oats.  It holds water,  it can be seasoned and many horses love it.  You can feed up to 30% her body weight a day in r/s/r BP!   You will be using it as a carrier for the minerals.  The Temporary Emergency Minerals are Vitamin E,  loose iodized table salt,  magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed.   You can get all of this at Walmart including hanging scales to weigh your hay.  Feed her 2% her body weight a day in dry hay.  Feed at least 4 meals a day.   Many of us use smhn (small mesh hay nets) to slow their eating down.    Grass is high in sugar.   If you were to experiment with her by pulling her off the pasture and feeding the Temp ER DIET for a week pulling blood during that time would give you an honest picture if she’s IR or not.   We recommend for IR horses to remove them from grass totally.  No apples/carrots/treats, commercial feeds nor supplements.  There is sugar in everything! 
 
TRIM.  This is a fascinating part of the protocol.  By having her angles out of correct alignment with her coffin bone can cause pain,  lameness.  Do you have recent xrays  you can post in ECH8 photo section?   That would answer more questions!   Be sure to send a photo of her soles.   Here’s a link on how to take good photos.   Put the camera on the ground!   Boots and pads can make her very comfortable. 
 
 
EXERCISE hand walking if she’ can tolerate.  Be sure NOT to turn tightly or pivot.  Do NOT trot her.   NO RIDING.    Let the hoof volunteers read her films before you do anything more. 
 
Bed her on soft saw dust.  Do not use straw.....its high in sugar.   Let her move at liberty as long as she’s not rodeo inclined which could hurt her feet.    Find her deworming records.   
 
Also sending you the IR calculator.   You see when you put her numbers in it that even though the numbers are in their normal ranges the RATIOS of these numbers may show you she’s IR.    Get your bloodwork!
 
Melodie,  start a journal on her,  ask questions and take photos.  
 
Tell us where you live so we can help you source products.  Whats your mares’ name too?   and  please include the link to your Case History with your name very time  you write in. 
 
You are on your way!!
 
http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html
 
 
http://www.softrideboots.com/1/
 
 
 
www.equi-analytical.com      This is where you send your hay samples.  Get the Trainer # 603 for $54
 
 
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 
 
 
www.ecirhorse.org
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 
 


Re: Pinworms

kimshu92026@...
 

Thank you Nancy. I considered all things that could cause the rubbing, including onchocerca, sweet itch, bad habit, allergic reaction to something in their diet or environment, etc.

Pinworms makes the most sense right now after seeing them in my mini and how suddenly and voraciously they started itching. The girls rub their vulvas and surrounding area and not the tail heads. The gelding is only damaging his tail at the moment.

I try to keep their hay tested and balanced and just got a new shipment of hay that will be tested soon.

Thanks for clarifying.

Kim and Nanna
Southern CA
May 2008


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


Welcome to the list. Our philosophy is DDT/E, which is shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  


DIAGNOSIS: Thoroughbreds are not a breed that is routinely IR unless there is something else driving it. If anything, they tend to need more calories than the average horse just to maintain good condition. Bloodwork is the best way to know for sure. Send a sample drawn from a NON-FASTING horse to Cornell for Insulin, Glucose and Leptin. At 7 yo, PPID (Cushings) is not a likely component here. As she has been away from the track for several years she has had time to "decompress" from the schedule, training and possible drug issues that can accompany that lifestyle so those are also not likely sources of the problems. Testing her for iron overload would be something to consider as iron supplementation is quite prevalent (and unnecessary) at the track. Iron overload could factor into some of Amelia's issues. The sample would need to be sent to Kansas State University as they are the only lab capable of doing the serum iron/ferritin/TIBC tests that are required to properly diagnose this.


DIET: Forage based with the hay tested and supplements mineral balanced to the assay. All hays have excesses and deficiencies and testing shows you exactly what is missing/excessive so you can supply the necessary nutrients in the correct amounts for the healthiest horse at the best value for you. Until you can have your hay tested, we recommend adding in the emergency diet items as they are meant to address the most common deficiencies. In Amelia's case, I don't think you need to soak her hay as she is a young TB who has trouble holding her weight so excess sugars are not likely to be a factor here. You can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a good way to add safe, extra calories and as a supplement carrier. No red or Himalayan salt blocks (contain iron and aren't correctly mineral balanced).


TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so the  hoof capsule tightly hugs the internal structures. Is she shod or barefoot? Either way, the trim must be correct first or shoes will only make the situation worse. Putting up pictures would be a real help for us. You can add them to the Photos section:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums


Here is a link to how to take good hoof pictures:


http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html


The trim could be the source of many of your girl's hoof issues. Coming from the track almost guarantees that her toes were long, heels underrun and hoof walls may nave been shelly. Flat soles would go along with this scenario. The time of year itself could be the issue rather than the consumption of grass. Depending on where you are located, weather changes and ground surface changes can cause bruising over the winter that then shows up as the weather warms and ground softens. The abscess path is usually a channel rather than a dishing effect. That dished configuration and her soreness could strictly be due to mechanical forces rather than metabolically induced laminitis. Agree that there is more to this than randomness as it has happened two years running at the same time of year.


EXERCISE: Bets thing for any horse as long as they are sound and willing. Never force a sore horse to move. Boots and pads may be in order if she is barefoot. I wouldn't recommend working her any harder than a walk until you know for sure what is causing the soreness.


We ask that you sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. This helps us to help you better. Also ask that you fill out a case history for your girl on our sister site ECHIstory8 so we have all the pertinent information in one place for the volunteers to refer to. You'll need to join but approval is quick.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/%201-INSTRUCTIONS%20AND%20CH%20TEMPLATE/


Ask any questions as they come up, we're here to help.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




 


Re: Pinworms

Nancy C
 

Hi Kim

Not using the moxidenctin is cautionary.  From the dewormer doc:
New combination dewormer pastes containing either ivermectin or moxidectin plus
praziquantel are available for treating tapeworm infestations. They are quite effective but this
study in rats suggests caution may be indicated with IR horses:!
[see study abstract PRAZIQUANTEL PRECAUTION.pdf in files at http://
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Deworming/]!
Once the drug wears off, there may be a compensatory rebound insulin spike.!
Would have to agree that the conclusion they reached, that "care should be taken" is
warranted.!
Please note it is NOT known if the same would occur in a horse when using the combination
dewormers but it's worth bearing in mind. Risks vs benefits should be discussed with your
treating vet if your horse or pony is IR.! !

Strongest caution is in thin horses.  it has teh thinest safety margin and needs to be dosed ccurately.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/147564

Dr Kellon's short course on deworming indicates both moxi and ivermectin are effective for adult and fourth stage larvae.  Also suggests pinworms are often incorrectly blamed for tail rubbing and do not generally happen in horse regularly dewormed. since you've seen them, it appeaars you actualy have them.   If you no longer see them, would recommend you go on a regular ivermectin schedule now and treat the horses topically for the rubbing and perhaps look for other areas that may be contributing to their itching. You might want to ask you vet about a short course of benedryl.  If you see them again, my leaning would be to go back to ivermectin and not the moxidectin.


Again, from reports of many members and my own personal experience, nothing helps these horses with resisting parasites and ealing with allergic type reaction like getting the diagnosis under control and addressing mineral/nutritional  imbalances in the diet.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



 





If Quest is OK, should I just give them a single dose spaced 6-8 weeks apart?



Re: Pinworms

kimshu92026@...
 

I read the deworming file and just want to confirm that it's OK to use Quest. I thought I read on here in a post that Quest was not safe.

If Quest is OK, should I just give them a single dose spaced 6-8 weeks apart?

Sorry, I get confused and need a step by step procedure to make sure I'm doing the right thing.

Thanks,

Kim and Nanna
Southern CA
May 2008


Re: Hay problem

Lorna Cane
 




I guess I need to say, since I have not had the yellow, ground up bits analyzed, "in which there appears to be" finely ground corn.

>Not only that,but the bags I have now are mostly powder ,in which there is finely ground corn.
I have been picking out the kernels,but the powder is impossible.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada


Re: Hay problem

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Sue,

>He is currently getting 2 - 3 pounds of old hay (5 bales left) 2 pounds of soy hulls,

Heads up if you are feeding soy hull pellets from Masterfeeds.
They are full of corn kernels.
Not only that,but the bags I have now are mostly powder ,in which there is finely ground corn.
I have been picking out the kernels,but the powder is impossible.

From Masterfeeds:
"I usually never recommend bagged ingredients usually because they are used by our mills for some of our products but are not quality controlled from our suppliers. That is why when you receive soya hull pellets there is not a proper tag on them with garenteed percent analysis. The other thing is we do not test this product for quality control to general public". 

She went on to say:
"For any animals with IR, I usually suggest our Senior Pellet the non structural carbohydrate percent on this product is 13%, anything below 23 % is considered low."

'Nough said!

If you get your sou hull pellets from someone else please let me know,as I am still looking.

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Pinworms

Nancy C
 

Sorry Kim.  Bad proofing on my part.

Five-day panacur is not longer recommended.  I have corrected the statement below.

In the above Dr Kellon recommends 5-dy panacur but due to resistance and extensive colonic ulceration the group no longer recommends it.  For dewormers now recommended please see FILES section

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Deworming/

Specifically: Dewormers updated 2013.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :
****************************

In the above Dr Kellon recommends 5-dy panacur due to resistance and extensive colonic ulceration.  For dewormers now recommended please see FILES section

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Deworming/

Specifically: Dewormers updated 2013.

 

As mentioned earlier for PPID and IR horses, diagnosis control and diet re critical for these issues.

For general horse  keeping suggestions, we need to move this to Horsekeeping.


Re: Pinworms

Nancy C
 

Hi Kim

To keep this on topic and specific to your IR horse....

Most often it is not pinworms. From this message

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/43444

 


> >This is the time of year he usually
> > rubs his tail and mane out. Would that be from migrating larvae
or
> the "no see'ums" fly?
>
> Could be no see-um's, dirty sheath or pinworms, I believe?

Right, or dead skin/scale build up around the anus, irritation from
tick bites. Pinworms are what most people think of first but it's
actually the least likely to be the problem.

Eleanor

****************************

In the above Dr Kellon recommends 5-dy panacur due to resistance and extensive colonic ulceration.  For dewormers now recommended please see FILES section

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Deworming/

Specifically: Dewormers updated 2013.

 

As mentioned earlier for PPID and IR horses, diagnosis control and diet re critical for these issues.

For general horse  keeping suggestions, we need to move this to Horsekeeping.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

---In EquineCushings@..., <kimshu92026@...> wrote :

I posted this over in Horsekeeping, but, there's not much activity over there so decided to post here, too. I'm wondering about the safe deworming treatment for IR horses who have pinworms.


 


Re: Pinworms

kimshu92026@...
 

P.S. Nanna's vulva and area around it is very swollen right now. I imagine it's irritation from the eggs being layed in that area. My mini had the same problem, but, is improving some. I am washing the area twice a day, spraying Zim's Crack Cream with Arnica which is supposed to help the itchiness and then slathering on vaseline so the eggs have a harder time sticking. I pulled another adult worm out of my mini's butt today, but, I think it was dead.


Re: Hay problem

Sue
 

Hi Linda,

Phew is right, sorry I forgot that we don't add WSC, that does make a difference.

So given that Busy's bloodwork is over the limits and this hay is at the top of the limit is it safe to use?

If it is safe to use should I balance to these numbers or wait and balance to the second cut?

Is it likely the the second cut will be lower in sugars and starches?

What is the best way to manage his diet this year?

He is currently getting 2 - 3 pounds of old hay (5 bales left) 2 pounds of soy hulls, 16 pounds of ODTBC, salt, flax and Vitamin E.

He gets 1 mg. of pergolide and we intend to up it to 1.5mg at the end of July and then up it again to 2mg. after a few weeks then test.

Your suggestions are gratefully appreciated.

I have tried 4 times to add his history for you but I loose the post, sorry.  it is under ECHistory 3.

Thanks Linda

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010 


Re: Hay problem

Patti Grisham
 

Linda,

I know that ESC and Starch are the important numbers for an IR horse, of which we have one.  I was pleased to see you say not to worry about the WSC because it does not matter.  At the No Laminitis Conference last year I think Dr. Kellon said WSC does not matter because it is fermented in the hindgut and therefore does not affect blood sugar or insulin levels.  Do I have that correct?  I have had people ask me about what matters in a hay analysis and I want to be sure that I am giving science-based answers and not shooting from the hip.  Can you help me better understand WSC so I can more accurately talk to people about it who ask? 

Thank you.

Patti
September 2012 (I think)
Oregon


Re: Pinworms

kimshu92026@...
 

Thanks for the reminder Chanda, but, I do keep my mare's udders and my gelding's sheath clean.  I'm hoping to get help with a safe protocol for treating the pinworms. Both my gelding and mare are IR and I'm sure my mini is at risk, too, though she's never been tested.

Kim and Nanna
Southern CA
May 2008

95861 - 95880 of 280085