Date   

Medicating a picky horse

misyrabi
 

 My mare has been on pergolide for the last 8 days and on chaste tree berry powder for over 2 weeks now.

 

I am having computer problems this week with uploading updates and pictures and hope to get things resolved over the weekend.  However here is our back history:  Yahoo! Groups

 

Bahj has no problems eating her normal food, but when I put her meds in her grain or in treats she wont eat.  She does not like chaste tree berry, but when I add some to her herd mates dishes, then she will eat it.

 

This last week she started dragging her front feet so this weekend I will take pictures to post.

 

Her behavior is fairly normal for her but I am concerned that she is refusing her treats.

 

I also noticed that she has a soft lump under the jaw.  I think it may be related to a lymph node acting up and have a call into the vet.  She also has a hard lump on the right side of her neck midway between her jaw and her shoulder.  It hasn't changed since I first found it a year ago, but with the added issues may have more significance.

 

My question today - how do you medicate a horse that refuses meds in treats?  Tonight I will try my standby apple sauce in a turkey baster trick.

 

Any ideas?

 

Marion Buntyn and Bahj Rha

Bennett, CO

May 2014

 

 

 


Re: Soy Hulls Availability?

gentpony
 

Hi Lorna,

 

Don’t know if this is helpful at all:

 

Roughly 7 years ago, while at a trade show, I saw soy hull pellets at the Agribrands Purina booth. However, last summer, when we contacted every feed store we could find in the area and beyond, looking for soy  them, no one had even heard of them, including the Purina stores.

The Purina rep who was recommending them at the show was Marc-Andre Blouin, Equine Technical Services Manager, Agribrands Purina Canada.

 You might try contacting him, as he should remember having them, and might know if there was a current source.   Sorry can’t find his current direct contact information….

 

http://equipurina.ca/eq/en/contact-us2/meet-the-team/

 

Eva

SW Ontario, far to the west of GTA

March 2005


Re: Requirements for ACTH Testing?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Ferne,


Know how you feel - my trusted vet left the practice suddenly last year.


We do not recommend trailering for tests as that will influence your results. By how much is unknown.


For the ACTH there is a 4 hour window. Glucose really should be separated more quickly. My vet just brings a portable centrifuge so there is no issue. Then all the vet needs to do is keep the samples cold until s/he returns to the office to freeze and ship. A few cold packs and a cooler will do that nicely. If the vet doesn't have a centrifuge you could look into getting one yourself - my vet got one on ebay for $40.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




Re: Soy Hulls Availability?

Lorna Cane
 




Hi Sue,

Sorry.I don't have time to look up the analyses,but have done so before.
Equianalytical site would give an idea.

Profiles are very similar,and we are comfortable recommending them.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc



 


Re: Soy Hulls Availability?

Lorna Cane
 




Hi Sue,

Now I'm conversing with myself.

From my earlier message, MF says:

"I usually never recommend bagged ingredients usually because they are used by our mills for some of our products but are not quality controlled from our suppliers. That is why when you receive soya hull pellets there is not a proper tag on them with garenteed percent analysis. The other thing is we do not test this product for quality control to general public". 

In fact,the spokeswoman for Masterfeeds is wrong again.

According to the tag on the bag the Guaranteed Analysis is Crude Protein (Min %) 8.00, Crude Fibre (Max %)  40.00, Moisture (Max %) 13.00

INGREDIENTS: Soybean Hulls

No mention of corn,various seeds and other 'things'.

I'm going to point that out to her,when I tell her I now have over 1 pound of kernels,seeds,etc saved. And that we are still searching for another company.

Aurelio? You reading? I know you would have a clean product,if you carried it.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

melodie miller <mellow_miller@...>
 

Hi Mandy,

I joined the group and made a folder, Amelia.
But I can't seem to find the case history file/document. Or do I just build that myself?
Vet coming in about an hour... so the process has begun.

Thank You for your help and support,
Melodie


On Thursday, July 10, 2014 2:48 PM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Melodie,

Welcome to the list. Our philosophy is DDT/E, which is shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  

DIAGNOSIS: Thoroughbreds are not a breed that is routinely IR unless there is something else driving it. If anything, they tend to need more calories than the average horse just to maintain good condition. Bloodwork is the best way to know for sure. Send a sample drawn from a NON-FASTING horse to Cornell for Insulin, Glucose and Leptin. At 7 yo, PPID (Cushings) is not a likely component here. As she has been away from the track for several years she has had time to "decompress" from the schedule, training and possible drug issues that can accompany that lifestyle so those are also not likely sources of the problems. Testing her for iron overload would be something to consider as iron supplementation is quite prevalent (and unnecessary) at the track. Iron overload could factor into some of Amelia's issues. The sample would need to be sent to Kansas State University as they are the only lab capable of doing the serum iron/ferritin/TIBC tests that are required to properly diagnose this.

DIET: Forage based with the hay tested and supplements mineral balanced to the assay. All hays have excesses and deficiencies and testing shows you exactly what is missing/excessive so you can supply the necessary nutrients in the correct amounts for the healthiest horse at the best value for you. Until you can have your hay tested, we recommend adding in the emergency diet items as they are meant to address the most common deficiencies. In Amelia's case, I don't think you need to soak her hay as she is a young TB who has trouble holding her weight so excess sugars are not likely to be a factor here. You can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a good way to add safe, extra calories and as a supplement carrier. No red or Himalayan salt blocks (contain iron and aren't correctly mineral balanced).

TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so the  hoof capsule tightly hugs the internal structures. Is she shod or barefoot? Either way, the trim must be correct first or shoes will only make the situation worse. Putting up pictures would be a real help for us. You can add them to the Photos section:


Here is a link to how to take good hoof pictures:


The trim could be the source of many of your girl's hoof issues. Coming from the track almost guarantees that her toes were long, heels underrun and hoof walls may nave been shelly. Flat soles would go along with this scenario. The time of year itself could be the issue rather than the consumption of grass. Depending on where you are located, weather changes and ground surface changes can cause bruising over the winter that then shows up as the weather warms and ground softens. The abscess path is usually a channel rather than a dishing effect. That dished configuration and her soreness could strictly be due to mechanical forces rather than metabolically induced laminitis. Agree that there is more to this than randomness as it has happened two years running at the same time of year.

EXERCISE: Bets thing for any horse as long as they are sound and willing. Never force a sore horse to move. Boots and pads may be in order if she is barefoot. I wouldn't recommend working her any harder than a walk until you know for sure what is causing the soreness.

We ask that you sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. This helps us to help you better. Also ask that you fill out a case history for your girl on our sister site ECHIstory8 so we have all the pertinent information in one place for the volunteers to refer to. You'll need to join but approval is quick.


Ask any questions as they come up, we're here to help.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



 



Re: Hay problem

PapBallou@...
 

Sue -

Can you drop me an email at my usual email addy?

Thanks -

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Soy Hulls Availability?

Sue
 

Hi Lorna,

Are the beet pulp shreds, no molasses okay to use instead of the soy hulls? 
Do they have more sugars and starches or are they the same?


Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010


Re: Hay problem

Sue
 

Hi Linda,

I have asked the BO to hold off giving Busy any of the new hay until I asked what amount of this hay would you recommend I give to Busy right now?

His blood work numbers were just over the limit this spring and indicated that he was  at a severe risk of laminitis so I  feel I need your advise and expertise  before I move forward.

Is it safe to give him this hay or should I wait for the second cut and just feed him ODTBC?

When the seasonal rise kicks in at the end of this month will that add to the risk factor?

Thanks

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010


Requirements for ACTH Testing?

ferne fedeli
 

I just had a terrible shock.  My great vet told me that he is "Hanging up his Stethoscope" and pursuing some other interests!  I just had him all trained too!!!

Anyway, he lives only about a half hour away and testing was no problem.  Now the nearest vet will be 2+ hours away and am having trouble even getting one to return my emails.  I will call tomorrow.  The other vet that I sometimes use says that she is too far away to do the ACTH testing, but I see that you now say that there is a 4-hour window to spin, etc. so seems it should be okay. 

Another possibility might be to trailer my horse 1 hour to the north where I might be able to get one of the vets that visit there once a week to do the testing.  I'm thinking that the trailer stress might cause an inaccurate test--or is that mainly for Insulin testing?  I was just looking at the Table of Contents and couldn't seem to find what I wanted.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


Re: Hay problem

PapBallou@...
 




 I think Dr. Kellon said WSC does not matter because it is fermented in the hindgut and therefore does not affect blood sugar or insulin levels.  Do I have that correct? 

Hi Patti -

Here are a couple of posts from Dr K:

Yahoo! Groups

 

Yahoo! Groups

 

And from Kat:




Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Soy Hulls Availability?

Lorna Cane
 




Hi Sue,

>So if Masterfeeds is polluting our soy hulls with corn, is there another company even in Northern New York State that has soy hulls?

From my earlier message, MF says:

"I usually never recommend bagged ingredients usually because they are used by our mills for some of our products but are not quality controlled from our suppliers. That is why when you receive soya hull pellets there is not a proper tag on them with garenteed percent analysis. The other thing is we do not test this product for quality control to general public". 

I take from this that MF does not feel responsible for the quality of this product from their suppliers.

I have not had one bag (I get/used to get 9-11 bags at a time) in the last maybe 6 months without any corn in it. In fact, each cup of pellets (now mostly powder) usually contains at least 3 kernels. One of my boys gets/used to get 12 pounds a day of the stuff. Others used to get only about 3 pounds a day. All are IR.
There are also  seeds of some sort in the product, plus dark pellets,as in brownish black.Not a lot of those,but I just want soy hull pellets. I have kept it all.
It used to be a clean product.They must have changed suppliers,but that doesn't help my horses.

I may have to go back to the more expensive beet pulp shreds.

Looking for a company interested in quality control.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Hay problem

Lorna Cane
 

HI Sue,

Yes,from Lois.

Soy meal is not recommended.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


 
 


Soy Hulls Availability?

Sue
 

So if Masterfeeds is polluting our soy hulls with corn, is there another company even in Northern New York State that has soy hulls?

Feedstore to your Door sells them but they are in Alberta and she said that she ships a pallet at a time!

She suggested that I contact her supplier , Otter Co-Op in Abbotsford  BC!

I will keep looking!

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010  


Re: Hay problem

Sue
 

Thanks, that is good to know.

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010


Re: Hay problem

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,


Yes, there is a difference. You cannot substitute soy meal for soy hulls. Two very different things.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



 


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Sorry, would help if I added the link...


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums/1195088691


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





 

 


Re: Hay problem

Sue
 

Hi Lorna,

Thanks for the heads up.  I do use Masterfeeds  I will have Ashley check them I trusted that she would but you never know.  Do you get yours from Lois?

Reta is using soy meal is there a difference?

Sue and Busy
Kingston,ON
October 2010
 


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


See you got two pics of Amelia's feet up - thanks. I added a quick mark-up on the RF for you to give you an idea of where the trim needs to be for that foot. The LF looks to also have some wedge but as the heels are higher and the dorsal wall is steeper the toe isn't as far out in front of her. She has what is called high-lo syndrome, which means one foot is more upright and boxy while the other is lower, flatter and wider. This is likely a trimming rather than a conformational issue. The new growth at the very top of the hoof capsule, right below the coronary band, is coming in at a steeper angle that is mirroring the location and angle of the coffin bone. As it grows down, it is being pulled away from it's correct location by the length of the overgrown toe. Totally correctable.


The green line is showing the wedge material that exists. This is not new but has developed over time. Wedge is like scar tissue that the hoof puts down to help cement the wall to the underlying tissues to try to hold it all together. It is not as strong as good laminar connections but is better than no thing at all. The blue lines are where you would like the trim to be occurring to lower her heels and bring that toe back under her. Can give you more specific recommendations when you get the sole and front shots up.


Do you have any xrays of her feet? If not, it might be wise to get some if they are in the budget. Regardless, could really use a more complete set of pics ala the link I gave you earlier.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



 

 


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Melodie,
Welcome to the list.   You have a smart trimmer!   You will see that our philosophy is quite simple.  Its DDT/E.  IF you do all 4 at the same time you will see improvement in your mare.    DDT/E means,  DIAGNOSIS,  DIET,   TRIM   and EXERCISE.  
 
But first we need you to join the ECH8 group which is our medical file.   There is a questionnaire to answer.  The answers paint a broader picture for the volunteers to read , interpret and advise you with.    Here is the link:
 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info
 
DIAGNOSIS is by bloodwork.   Your mare probably is not Cushings because of her age.  We are going into the seasonal rise very soon so testing her for a baseline now could probably wait.   BUT!  we have found that some horses can be ‘fed into a state of IR’.   By testing her Insulin/Glucose and Leptin  NON fasting ~~ will tell you if IR is involved.   Skinny horses can be IR as well as fat ones.     What you can do is have your vet come out early in the week to pull blood for these 3 tests.   Feed her grass hay that is low sugar/starch or if you don’t have an analysis,  soak her hay for one hour (no more) and then drain it.   Feed her this hay the night before the test and the day of the test.  We need to see what her insulin is on low sugar/starch feed.   Do NOT give her bucket feed. ..just hay.   Have your vet spin/separate the blood within  4 hours of the draw and freeze the serum.  Ship it overnight air to Cornell,  in NY.   You want this serum to get to the lab before Friday.  
 
DIET is low sugar/starch forage with minerals balanced to that hay’s assay.   This can be a little bit of a challenge buying, storing and boarding but it can be done!    We recommend under 10% sugar/starch a day.  So the TC Senior you’ve been feeding comes in at 13.2% which is higher than we recommend.  TC Lite is a better choice at 9.5%.   Infact,  rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is the best choice.  It has a similar mineral profile as oats.  It holds water,  it can be seasoned and many horses love it.  You can feed up to 30% her body weight a day in r/s/r BP!   You will be using it as a carrier for the minerals.  The Temporary Emergency Minerals are Vitamin E,  loose iodized table salt,  magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed.   You can get all of this at Walmart including hanging scales to weigh your hay.  Feed her 2% her body weight a day in dry hay.  Feed at least 4 meals a day.   Many of us use smhn (small mesh hay nets) to slow their eating down.    Grass is high in sugar.   If you were to experiment with her by pulling her off the pasture and feeding the Temp ER DIET for a week pulling blood during that time would give you an honest picture if she’s IR or not.   We recommend for IR horses to remove them from grass totally.  No apples/carrots/treats, commercial feeds nor supplements.  There is sugar in everything! 
 
TRIM.  This is a fascinating part of the protocol.  By having her angles out of correct alignment with her coffin bone can cause pain,  lameness.  Do you have recent xrays  you can post in ECH8 photo section?   That would answer more questions!   Be sure to send a photo of her soles.   Here’s a link on how to take good photos.   Put the camera on the ground!   Boots and pads can make her very comfortable. 
 
 
EXERCISE hand walking if she’ can tolerate.  Be sure NOT to turn tightly or pivot.  Do NOT trot her.   NO RIDING.    Let the hoof volunteers read her films before you do anything more. 
 
Bed her on soft saw dust.  Do not use straw.....its high in sugar.   Let her move at liberty as long as she’s not rodeo inclined which could hurt her feet.    Find her deworming records.   
 
Also sending you the IR calculator.   You see when you put her numbers in it that even though the numbers are in their normal ranges the RATIOS of these numbers may show you she’s IR.    Get your bloodwork!
 
Melodie,  start a journal on her,  ask questions and take photos.  
 
Tell us where you live so we can help you source products.  Whats your mares’ name too?   and  please include the link to your Case History with your name very time  you write in. 
 
You are on your way!!
 
http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html
 
 
http://www.softrideboots.com/1/
 
 
 
www.equi-analytical.com      This is where you send your hay samples.  Get the Trainer # 603 for $54
 
 
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 
 
 
www.ecirhorse.org
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 
 

96121 - 96140 of 280357