Date   

Re: Bounce - blood test results

gentpony
 

Hi Ruth,

Looking at your blood test results, I noticed that for both Feb and June, your samples arrived at Guelph already thawed—see top of the page, “Specimen(s) received:” 

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Ruth%20and%20Bounce%20Case%20History%20-%20Ontario%2C%20Canada/

 

     In the 8 years we have been sending frozen specimens for ACTH over a much longer distance, we have not had any such reports of thawed samples using the free Purolator courier.

Is your vet freezing the samples overnight and sending with frozen ice packs, with the whole bundle wrapped in newspaper? See Step 4 for preparing specimens for shipping:

http://www.guelphlabservices.com/AHL/SubmitSpecimens.aspx

 

Alton is very close to Guelph, and in my opinion, the June sample should not have taken 2 days to arrive.  Also odd for the overnight samples to thaw in February.

 

The thawed samples then needed to be sent on to Cornell.  I would have more questions about the sample handling: What day did Guelph forward the samples?  Did Guelph refreeze the sample, or just sent it chilled? What effect would this have on the Cornell results?

 

Thurs Feb 27 thawed sample arrives at Guelph-ACTH...Mon Mar 3 sample analyzed at Cornell –insulin, leptin

Fri June 13 thawed sample arrives Guelph…Thurs June 19 sample analyzed at Cornell – ACTH, insulin, leptin

 

When we have needed samples forwarded to another lab (KSU or Cornell), we have driven the frozen samples directly to Guelph (wrapped in ice packs and newspapers and placed in a cooler), to be certain they arrive in good condition.  This is over 6 hours of driving round trip for us.  With my vet’s agreement to save his time, I called Dr Jim Fairles in advance and made arrangements for our samples to be held in Guelph’s freezer for the weekend, then sent out on Monday.

 

Eva

SW Ontario

Mar 2005


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

PapBallou@...
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <mellow_miller@...> wrote :

Oh My,  this is very disturbing. I felt something was wrong this past trim (2 days ago) as this is the second time she is very sore AFTER the trim.  I feel terrible thinking I have hurt my poor horse, I love her so.... I took her off the track at just-turned-5 and have taken the "slow route" building her confidence and trust.

Melodie -

As was previously mentioned, I think, OTTB can come with 'hidden' surprises that you're not expecting.  But catching these things with the feet when they can be addressed is the key, and that's what you have done here.

It's not unusual to see unexpected hoof issues with the running QHs when they come off the track.

The trim or trim technique probably had nothing to do with it, so don't feel bad, and don't allow your trimmer to feel bad.  We see these things so often and can help you both get it all organized. 

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004 


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Melodie,

It's all going to come together.Your girl is very lucky to have you,so you're not allowed to look back.You're both on your way now.

We ask everyone to sign their name,location,and date they joined the group,plus adding the link to their case history.If you can do that each time you post a message,it will be very useful to those helping you help your girl.

Also,we ask everyone to delete the old message from their post,so that people on Digest don't have to scroll and scroll through everything they have already read to get to a new message.
It also makes it much easier to do a search for information in the future.

It'll get easier,so just keep breathing.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc



Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

melodie miller <mellow_miller@...>
 

Oh My,  this is very disturbing. I felt something was wrong this past trim (2 days ago) as this is the second time she is very sore AFTER the trim.  I feel terrible thinking I have hurt my poor horse, I love her so.... I took her off the track at just-turned-5 and have taken the "slow route" building her confidence and trust.

I have scheduled x-rays for this week, as soon as the vet can come out. I will certainly take the pics as you suggested. No problem at all. I am so very thankful for any help. 
I just feel terrible.  
BTW.. I  would never ride her sore. Ever.

I work daily so the pics won't be posted until tomorrow evening sometime. 

Again, thank you so much for your help.  
Yours'
Melodie


On Sunday, July 13, 2014 2:09 PM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Melodie,

Thanks for adding the newer shots. There are definite issues with Amelia's trim, enough that they could be the sole source of her ongoing soreness and abscessing. I moved all of your photos into one album on ECHistory8:

Yahoo! Groups
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
Preview by Yahoo

Is the pic labeled LF actually the RF(?). If there has been laminitis it may be mechanical rather than metabolic, which means that the hoof form is not correct and is causing a lot of tearing forces on the laminar connections each time Amelia takes a step. She definitely should not be worked/ridden until corrections are made to her trim and boots and pads are a priority to keep her comfortable and prevent further concussive damage.

I see the areas where the older abscesses are growing out on the dorsal(front) walls. If you tap on the hoof wall below this point do you get a hollow sound? If so, how far to each side? The dishing is likely a combination of the long toes, possible rotation/sinking and abscess tracts destabilizing the connections even more.

The sole appears to be fairly flat, with no concavity. Heel buttresses are too far forward and the bars are also run forward and rolling onto the sole. It is likely the sole is thin, at least on the flatter RF. Toe is definitely too long on both and heels will need to be backed and dropped WITHOUT removing sole depth. This will likely be trickier to accomplish on the RF as the coffin bone angle may already be ground parallel or even slightly negative plane. Xrays are a very good idea. Please take a look here, on our sister site ECHoof, for How to Get Good Xrays:


I know it's a bit of a pain but could you get pics of all the soles and lateral and dorsal shots as well? Need the camera to be on the ground 12-18 inches from the foo, good lighting or use the flash. Soles square in the center of the shot. A couple of body shots would also be helpful. Try to hold the foot steady when taking sole shots - maybe you can get a friend to hold the foot up for you? Once you get these, I can do some specific mark-ups and explanations for you to illustrate exactly what needs to be done. Can also do the same for the xrays once you have them.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Re: Hay sampling

 

Thanks for all the advice Cass!

Beth & Flame
NV Oct 2013

Sent from my iPhone


Re: IR specific grass hay field

shabbonawoman
 

Not sure if Jim, agronomist, has retired, but here's a start. Should be someone there to help.


With all the rain, hay is going to be straw this year.


Hope all keeps going in the right direction for you guys,


Jim Morrison
Extension Educator, Crop Systems
Rockford Extension Center , University of Illinois
1601 Parkview Avenue
Rockford , IL 61107
Phone 815-395-5710
FAX 815-395-5726
e-mail morrison@...


Cheryl - No. IL

ECHK Support Team

10.07






Re: IR specific grass hay field

gypsylassie
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :


I don't have an answer to your question directly but wanted to suggest talking to the soil/forage expert at your cooperative extension.  You may have thought of this already. 


Thanks Nancy,
Back when the boys were able to graze, I got help with toxic weed identification in my pasture.  But now, with all the problems IL. has, some of the offices have been closed and some don't have anyone who can help anymore.   But I haven't tried them lately, so that's a good place to start.  Maybe they're starting to get "back in business".  Thanks again,
Laura K. Chappie & Beau, who are very happy that Dad is coming out to scratch their haunches again.
N.IL. 2011


Re: IR specific grass hay field

Nancy C
 

Hi Laura

I'm so sorry to hear of your husband.  Lots of stress for both of you. 

I don't have an answer to your question directly but wanted to suggest talking to the soil/forage expert at your cooperative extension.  You may have thought of this already. 

Agriculture- U of I Extension

 



I have found ours to be hugely helpful in working out what we needed to do for our hay crop.  This year is the best so far, year four of soil amendment.

They may even have suggestions for growers in your area.

HTH....All the best for you and hubby.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <lcknie@...> wrote :
.

If I find this elusive person, does anyone have suggestions for a recommended broadleaf spray and which grasses to seed it with if it needs bolstering up?  ( Grasses for N.IL. ) Thanks.

Laura K. Chappie & Beau

N.IL.2011


Re: Melada's pergolde

Nancy C
 

Hi Catherine and Cindy

You need to get off the pergolide suspension as it is the most suspicious of not helping you.  Whether 2 mg Prascend will or not is hard to say.  There have been members who had numbers lower than Melada's 09.13  that were not controlled on 2 mg of Prascend.  Were there new numbers for ACTH and Insulin? If you have a choice, could try to get the pergolide capsules, ordering 30 days at a time, kept in door of fridge. 

There is a study by UCDavis int eh files that shows the various forms of compounded and how they tested for efficacy that you could show your vet. Nice that he/she is on board.

The Zin Pro is not balanced to your hay. You know that.  Blood testing to find what the horse needs tells you what is short, but not why he is short on any given mineral.  Is it a frank efficiency or a relative deficiency?  And what do you do about it?

Dr Kellon should be sent the hormone results privately unless she has said otherwise.

Hand in there.  Glad the diarrhea resolved.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





 


---In EquineCushings@..., <fischerc@...> wrote :




Cindy ID

October 2013

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Cindy%20ID. 


IR specific grass hay field

gypsylassie
 

My husband had a heart attack back in May, (his 2nd) and it came with some worrisome complications, so I haven't been able to keep up with posts or had the time to try to search the files.  He's starting to do a bit better so I thought I'd post a hay question.  Here in N. IL. most farmers raise alfalfa or alf/grass mix hay. Better tonnage and prices.  Having lost my grass hay source in 2012, I'm trying to find decent grass hay, but much of it comes from "incidental" sources like waterways and a variety of old fields and small plots, that the landowners just want kept mowed, so they let people come in and bale it.  Consequently it usually comes with a mix of undesirable plants.

I'd like to find a farmer that would be willing to manage a grass hay source with herbicide when needed for weeds, alfalfa and clover. And also mow early in the morning to try to catch it with the lower sugars.  And I'll let him know I'm willing to pay what he needs to do this.  I think around here grass hay is looked at as "the cheap hay".

If I find this elusive person, does anyone have suggestions for a recommended broadleaf spray and which grasses to seed it with if it needs bolstering up?  ( Grasses for N.IL. ) Thanks.

Laura K. Chappie & Beau

N.IL.2011


Re: Requirements for ACTH Testing?

gentpony
 

Hi Ferne,

 

Not sure if the following will apply.

If also doing glucose, and there will be a 1 hour delay in separating the cells, the vet needs to use a grey top tube, not a red top tube for the glucose sample.  Also keep it chilled with the lavender top tube to slow bacterial growth. The grey top tubes might need to be ordered so make this request to your vet well ahead of time. 

 

To avoid confusion, mark on the submission form that the grey top is for the glucose test.

The additives in the grey top tube can interfere with other tests, so use this one just for glucose. 

For labs that require serum for insulin, use a red top tube for that. 

(Cornell uses the lavender top plasma for both ACTH and insulin).

 

We have a plastic ice cream container with refrigerated water plus ice that goes out to the barn when the vet arrives for the blood draw.  After gentle inversion to mix, all the tubes go into the ice water bath immediately, then the whole container with lid is transported in a pre-cooled (refrigerated) cooler bag, even though the vet’s office is only a few minutes away.

 

The following posts are by Dr Kellon:

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/64951

“…sample should be kept cool (not frozen) and if they won't be able to process the blood within an hour (serum) or even sooner (plasma), should use a grey topped tube (fluoride) for the glucose test. This tube stops the red cells from eating up the glucose giving you a falsely low result.”

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/87294

“One big problem though is that glucose levels will tend to degrade for as long as the blood cells are in contact with the serum, and over time because blood is not collected sterilely and some bacteria inevitably get into the sample. If you get a low reading, first to do is probably repeat it. Either borrow a human glucometer if you can, or request a glucose be run using a grey top collection tube (oxalate - stops the red cells from "eating" the glucose).”

       [*my note for newcomers- need BOTH Glucose and Insulin from the SAME blood draw]

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/62888

“Just a quick note here on glucose testing. Unless you are doing a complete chemistry panel (which needs serum), ask your vet to take the sample for glucose into a grey top tube (oxalate). This will give you more accurate glucose readings.”

 

For Info on tubes:

http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/customer-service/faq/specimen/collection-tubes

 

On rates of glycolysis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK248/

“Both red cells and leukocytes contain glycolytic enzymes. Therefore glucose will be consumed and the concentration of glucose in a sample of whole blood will decline with time. The rate of loss is generally said to be approximately 5% per hour, but may be as rapid as 40% in 3 hours. Consumption of glucose in whole blood samples can be prevented by adding sodium fluoride to the specimen to inhibit the glycolytic enzymes.

 

Rapid separation of the sample or cooling will also prevent glycolysis and will allow the sample to be used for other determinations. Unhemolyzed samples that have been separated within 30 minutes of drawing are generally considered adequate. Rapid cooling of the sample followed by centrifugation is even more effective in preventing glycolysis. “

Eva

SW Ontario,  Mar 2005


Melada's pergolde

Catherine G. Fischer
 

Updated history posted today.  We need help getting this right!  ACTH and insulin elevated. Glucose normal. Awaiting hormone results from BET labs. Symptoms mainly footsore and haircoat not fully shed.  Otherwise reasonably good.

Our vet who will work with us highly recommends moving to Prescend 2 mg.

She also is concerned about stability of compounded product.  Melada was on 10 mg from Pet Health at time of testing.  Pet Health says product is stable with sesame oil base, need not be refrigerated, and maintains potency for more than 60 days (? can't remember exact stats) 

Have increased pergolide to 11 mg. compounded.

1. Very scary to move from 10 mg compounded to 2 mg of Prescend ??

2. Cost is a consideration.

3  Looking at database shows lower level dosages of Prescend.


Thank you again for being here!  Love this mare and want her to be her perky self.



Cindy ID

October 2013

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Cindy%20ID. 


Re: Pinworms(Manure disposal) Moved to Horsekeeping

Lorna Cane
 


Re: Pinworms

Lorna Cane
 

>This brings up a question about manure disposal. 

Hi Karen,

Your message has been moved over to our sister site, ECHorsekeeping, which is better suited for general topics,such as manure disposal.


Lots of discussion over there on pinworms,too.


 


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Pinworms

kansteen5545@...
 

Hello -
This brings up a question about manure disposal. If horses have worms and their manure is daily being spread on their grazing pasture, are you not increasing the parasite load in the grass? The pasture is not a dry lot where the manure can dry out, but thick grass.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


Thanks for adding the newer shots. There are definite issues with Amelia's trim, enough that they could be the sole source of her ongoing soreness and abscessing. I moved all of your photos into one album on ECHistory8:


Yahoo! Groups


Is the pic labeled LF actually the RF(?). If there has been laminitis it may be mechanical rather than metabolic, which means that the hoof form is not correct and is causing a lot of tearing forces on the laminar connections each time Amelia takes a step. She definitely should not be worked/ridden until corrections are made to her trim and boots and pads are a priority to keep her comfortable and prevent further concussive damage.


I see the areas where the older abscesses are growing out on the dorsal(front) walls. If you tap on the hoof wall below this point do you get a hollow sound? If so, how far to each side? The dishing is likely a combination of the long toes, possible rotation/sinking and abscess tracts destabilizing the connections even more.


The sole appears to be fairly flat, with no concavity. Heel buttresses are too far forward and the bars are also run forward and rolling onto the sole. It is likely the sole is thin, at least on the flatter RF. Toe is definitely too long on both and heels will need to be backed and dropped WITHOUT removing sole depth. This will likely be trickier to accomplish on the RF as the coffin bone angle may already be ground parallel or even slightly negative plane. Xrays are a very good idea. Please take a look here, on our sister site ECHoof, for How to Get Good Xrays:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/files/X-Rays%20%26%20Radiographs/


I know it's a bit of a pain but could you get pics of all the soles and lateral and dorsal shots as well? Need the camera to be on the ground 12-18 inches from the foo, good lighting or use the flash. Soles square in the center of the shot. A couple of body shots would also be helpful. Try to hold the foot steady when taking sole shots - maybe you can get a friend to hold the foot up for you? Once you get these, I can do some specific mark-ups and explanations for you to illustrate exactly what needs to be done. Can also do the same for the xrays once you have them.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




Re: Pinworms

kimshu92026@...
 

I still need help in making a treatment plan for pinworms if anyone can help me. I haven't gotten much help from my vet who says he's rarely seen pinworms, especially in older horses (I've been reading that there is an increase in occurence and even older horses are getting them now when it used to only be young horses).

I have two horses that are tested and diagnosed IR and a mini that I treat as IR although she's not been tested. All three have pinworms.

When I questioned my vet about how often I can give ivermectin or pyrantel, he just answered that dewormers are relatively safe nowadays.

I took a dead worm that I pulled out of my mini's butt to him yesterday and he said it looked like a pinworm, although, it was deteriorated which made it hard to tell for sure. But, with the severe itching that my horses are having under their tails (with no neck rubbing), it points to pinworms. I am glad to see that the last two times I saw a worm, it was dead.

They are very difficult to eradicate due to their life cycles and it seems that dewormers only kill the adults which take up to five months to mature.

I am washing their hind ends in the morning to remove any eggs deposited during the night. In the evening I wash them again and then slather on vaseline which is supposed to make it harder for the eggs to stick.

I read that it can take up to a year to finally get things under control.

I would like to deworm as often as I safely can to continually kill the adults as they mature. If they have continuously ingested eggs (I have no idea where they got them since my vet said they mainly occur in damp grass pastures. I live in Southern CA and my horses are on a one acre dry lot.)

Can anyone tell me how often I can deworm and which kind is best and whether they should be single or double doses? One article I read said a double dose of pyrantel every 6-8 weeks. Dr. Gordon told me on the EC Horsekeeping site that she took Dr. Kellon's deworming class and Dr. Kellon said to use Fendazibole (something like that) or Iver with praziquantel, but, I don't know how ofen or single or double dose. 

When my mini first started rubbing, I gave her Ivermectin twice, two weeks apart and she still had a live adult worm a week or two later, so I wonder about the effectiveness of the Ivermectin. I then gave her Quest on the advice of my vet and then I saw two dead worms come out of her.

Should I make an appointment to have a consultation with Dr. Kellon?

Thanks,

Kim and Nanna
Southern CA
May 2008


Bounce - blood test results

Ruth Vale
 

I have added the most blood test recent results for Bounce to the case history file. He's looking good, interested in life and no abscess since February.

Currently on 3.5 lbs of Brooks Un-ti (minimum maintenance ration) to which I've added 1/2 fresh ground flax, 1/2 tsp iodized salt, 1/2 tsp magnesium oxide and VitE capsules. He is on dry lot and is not hand grazed on the green stuff. I'm waiting for the BO to provide information on the hay testing and will update the case history file (I don't have MS Word on this machine so it is a big hassle and a long story). Remember that this horse hasn't given me much of an obvious hint except the abscessing and general depression. I have to buy the feed in addition to the board bill, so I'm looking to cut where I can - is the Vit E supplement still advised? Rest of the supplement is cheap so no issues. Readings all look great except Leptin is slightly elevated.

Glucose : 91 mg/dL (reference range 71-113)
ACTH Baseline : 18.1 pg/mL (reference range 9-35) - non-fasting
Insulin Baseline : 8.46 uIU/mL (reference range 10-40)
Leptin Baseline : 5.16 ng/mL (reference range 1-4)
T4 (Thyroxine) Baseline : 2.48 ug/dL (reference range 0.85-2.4)

Vet advises that: "slightly elevated leptin is enough to keep us watchful of him. Insulin resistance or not, he is a very efficient metabolizing horse" There has been no evidence of abscessing since February 2014. He likes the new feed and he continues in the dry lot with no hand grazing allowed and regular exercise 3-5 days/week - mostly hacking and light schooling for about 20 min to an hour, increasing as we both get fitter. He was tested in February, this one was drawn on June 11. He was on pergolide last winter as a precaution. My thought is that if we are going to have trouble again it will be over the next six months.

Trimmer keeps making reference to the "stretched laminae" in his feed, but the sole meets the hoof wall and an obvious mustang roll is developing. Heel on front right is still growing out from that last abscess which really blew it apart. He shows tender footed on course gravel occasionally but not like last summer.

Can someone give me the Coles Notes on what exactly what "stretched laminae" is and advise whether my guess that we managed to escape a founder in 2013 is correct? I'll get new pics of his feet and post them. Is he still at risk (to what degree?) for founder? Would you advise continuing on the same regime or make any changes?

Ruth and Bounce
Ontario Canada
joined 2013

Case History - Ontario, Canada/2014-07-12 Bounce_bloodwork.pdf
Description : Round 2 of blood testing, sample drawn June 11, 2014. Symptoms have diminished - no evidence of abscessing since Feb 2014.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Ruth%20and%20Bounce%20Case%20History%20-%20Ontario%2C%20Canada/2014-07-12%20Bounce_bloodwork.pdf


Re: Hay sampling

 

Hi, Beth. 
The cores will fall apart when you remove them from the probe with the rod. After you've sampled enough bales, mix all the cores thoroughly before you draw your sample. Don't leave out the fines. 

I'm sure we've each made different mistakes...my first was not owning the right drill. I took care of that by getting a powerful impact drill. I found that after coring several bales, the probe gets too hot to touch.  I take breaks to let it cool down. Wear gloves! The tip of the probe can be both hot and wickedly sharp.

My second mistake was sending too much hay. Send just a quart bag or weigh your sample and send just the 100 grams requested. 

I immediately (same day) mail by USPS Priority Mail small box for around $5 to get 2 day delivery to Ithaca. Print your label at home for a small discount. https://www.usps.com/ship/priority-mail.htm

  

Good luck! 

Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct 12

-<bethy004@...> wrote :

Once the cores are in the clean bucket do I spread them apart & then mix them all together? ... Any other advice?


Re: Equi-analytical testing

eberendt
 

Thank you, Lavinia. 
I'll use the Trainer test. I find myself having to use small batches of hay rather than one good source,which means more testing. Dry, clean hay is getting pretty hard to find here in Northern Illinois.  Just about harvest time for first cutting we had a big jump in humidity and rains. Three days in a row without rain is a gift. Some fields have not even had first cutting yet.
Emily

98101 - 98120 of 282373