Date   

chia

Marilyn Mannino
 

What amount(weight) of chia seeds should I feed my MFT gelding per 100 lbs of body weight?
 
Marilyn &  Bud in MI
2013


Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

Nancy C
 

Hi Lars and all

I need to correct my dosing statement of yesterday I had per 250 kg of Body weight.  It should be 500 IU per 250 lb of body weight.

We may be losing folks who trying to decide what to do in the weeds, so want to explain the dosing above is based on using the synthetic form.  Cost was also a factor in this recommendation. Taking a look at Puritan for example, the natural is some 44% more expensive. Other sources may be even more cost effective.  NRC lists natural at 1.36 more bioavailable.  For budgeting purposes the synthetic may make more sense and, if dosed as above, most horses will get the amount they need. Many folks use the natural or micellized Vitamin E.

The most important thing is to have the Vit E in oil.  Soy oil s most commonly used in Vit E caps.  Soy oil is not an issue due to the small amount used. Dr Kellon has also pointed out that phytoestrogens are removed from soy oil.

For those of you who are members of ECHorsekeeping, there is a good review of Vit E recs in the FILES section. Thank you Cheryl! (Once there, scroll down)

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHorsekeeping/files

 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 




How do I convert International units (IU) to mcg or mg?


 


 



 
 


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

Nancy C
 

Hi Ellen. 

Glad to hear you are on top of the lyme. Was the the herbal treatment? Blood going to Cornell?

I had asked about the IR update because at the last look, it appeared she was not so at baseline. If that is the case that would be a nice positive for Emmie.

There have been several horses in this group who have dealt with lyme induced laminitis. Why she was affected and not your other mares, is a big question.

Is she still on the bute? 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc





---In EquineCushings@..., <eswilli2@...> wrote :

Ellen Willis Strafford New Hampshire Joined March 2014 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ellen%20Willis/


Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

> Wanted to make the point that the method of delivery in question was not optimal.

I certainly agree with this.

> This may be a better site.  Or perhaps you have a better one for us lay people.

There is a huge problem with conversion rules for different forms of vitamin E. Most web sites actually are incorrect. Even Wikipedia is incorrect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_unit

“Vitamin E: 1 IU is the biological equivalent of about 0.667 mg d-alpha-tocopherol (2/3 mg exactly), or of 0.45 mg of dl-alpha-tocopherol acetate.”

The conversion of natural d-alpha-tocopherol is correct, i.e. 1 mg is equal to 1.5 IU.

The synthetic form of vitamin E that is commonly used is dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate
because this form is more stable. 1 mg of dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate is equal to 1 IU.

Theoretically, the natural form of d-alpha-tocopherol is 1.5 more potent than synthetical dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate. However, KER claims that studies show even higher potency for the natural form:

http://www.ker.com/library/proceedings/04/VitaminE_p73.pdf

Lars
Sweden, July 2008



How do I convert International units (IU) to mcg or mg?


 


 



 


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

eswilli2@...
 

Nancy, We treated Emmie for Lyme. Our vet continue to check her blood work every two weeks and if she needs to be treated for Lyme we will do so. Laminitis is an awful disease and we may never know what caused Emmie's very severe case of Laminitis. Ellen Willis Strafford New Hampshire Joined March 2014 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ellen%20Willis/


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

Nancy C
 

Just so everyone is on the same page....I've been helping Emmie with finding hay and balancing her diet only.  The hay Emmie has is extraordinarilyly nice this yea.  Good protein, good majors, low iron and Mn.  Good DE and digestibility.  Same as my geldings Beau and Skip will be eating.

Ellen has a number of advisers and I felt I would just confuse things by getting into other areas of DDT+E.

Ellen - Curious if you did more blood work because I think the last conclusion here was that she was not IR and that her  issues were driven by Lyme disease.

Hope Emmie is having a good day.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

eswilli2@...
 

Duh

SR=Soft Rides

See what stress can do to you. 


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

eswilli2@...
 

Linda,
This is the shoe Emmie has on.  East Coast Horseshoe Supply Sound Horse Morrison Roller Motion (Black) Kit - Without Adhesive I found the most information on this shoe at SoundHorse.com but their web page is down right now. 

 

I would very much like to get her out of them and you are already helping me to be able to talk with my vet and farrier.  Thanks for the Mark Ups! Thank you. Thank you!

I am sure they put Soft Equipac at the toe and harder Equipac at the heel. I have told my vet for weeks now I think she is getting too much from the Equipac but she disagrees.  

I am not sure if there is an additional wedge in the shoes.  Maybe you can tell now that you know that she has the Morrison Roller Motion shoe on. 

What are SRs?

We have had good success with Phyto Quench and we have had to do some other things some of the time because the Wind Up Pain has been a challenge for Emmie.  A lot of changing and trying different things at different times.  This vet is doing some acupuncture on Emmie and we have recently started some Chinese Herbs that seem to be providing some support as well. 

Ellen Willis
Strafford New Hampshire
Joined March 2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ellen%20Willis/

RADS I posted to echistory8 Album-Emmie in July.TWH.NH

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/271012743

 


 


Re: Magnesium oxide

Nancy C
 

Hi Beth

You want to feed based on your hay analysis.  I'm guessing you haven't gotten there yet, so the emergency diet calls for the following:

Magnesium 1.5 grams/day per 500 lbs body weight (only as a short term
measure until hay analysis can confirm if it is actually needed or not, and how
much). Can use human supplement, or get feed grade magnesium oxide from a
feed mill – 1/2 teaspoon magnesium oxide provides approximately 1.5 grams
magnesium.

This is a bare minimum amount to  cover frank deficiency with out upsetting the balance of of unknown hay. 

Make sure you read the full document about the emergency diet and it's components, found in this file folder. It is designed to be used short term only.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%201%20START%20HERE!!!/Basic%20Nutritional%20Needs/

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <bethy004@...> wrote :

I've been searching the conversations & table of contents but haven't been able to find out how much to feed.


Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

Nancy C
 

Thanks once again for keeping me honest Lars.

Wanted to make the point that the method of delivery in question was not optimal.

This may be a better site.  Or perhaps you have a better one for us lay people.

How do I convert International units (IU) to mcg or mg?

 

For those trying to figure out what to buy, just a reminder the recommendations here of 500 IU per 250 kg of BW are based on synthetic form of Vit E.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/160746

 



Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




Just a warning: The conversion rules given on this web site are incorrect.


 


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

PapBallou@...
 

Ellen -

Once I started to work on a markup, I got a little confused.  Well, more than usual.

It appears there is a pad, which makes sense.  Also appears to be wedged, but that might be due to compression from her landing so far forward.  My BIG concern is if this is a rim pad.  If it is, it may also be part of the reason she was walking much better in the soft-rides.  The SRs support the sole of the foot.  A rim pad cushions the walls, but allows the sole/frog area to move up and down within the capsule, like a piston.

Granted, it may be a millimeter or two of natural motion, but in a horse with damaged laminar attachments, and frank wall/lamina damage from those abscesses, it could be devastating,

Yahoo! Groups

 



Anyway, the markups suggest what I think are issues - palmar angles too high, causing a broken forward axis on both feet, right in particular.  I would definitely lower the palmar angles from the yellow to the orange by trimming the heels at the blue.  Yellow arrows show what should be the resulting correction of the bony alignment.

Also, if a pad is used, would go for a flat pad and not wedged.  Current configuration appears to be a wedge pad.  The wedge configuration is contributing to the broken forward axis. And would definitely add packing between a full pad and sole/frog.

Green is the excess heel extending out back of her foot.  As she attempts to land on her heels, this green area pushes that landing more forward.  Some therapeutic appliances actually have the heel beveled forward so that the heel landing is not impeded.

You had previously asked about Phyto-Quench helping with pain.  Am leaping to the assumption this may be part of the reason Emmie is comfortable.

And, with the new sole depth compared to several months ago, you might want to see how the SRs work now...which would allow for frequent trims to ensure those heels don't creep up and change the alignment of the bony column.

JMO.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

PapBallou@...
 

Hi again!

So glad that Emmie isn't in pain!  The gait alterations, well, if she won't settle on the heels, then there is probably something in the way!  

IMO, the heels can be trimmed to be lower, especially RF.  I also think all that extra shoe/padding sticking out back is keeping her from landing on her heels.  If not keeping her from landing on them, then forcing her to land more forward than the heels.  Hmmm...guess that's the same thing!  

Heels touch down in the same manner as an aircraft lands - back landing gear, a bit of a roll forward, and then nose landing gear. Her back landing gear is simply too far back.  When she tries to 'land', all that added appliance is in the way and causes a 'bumpy landing'.  I tend to cringe when I see shoes, metal or composite, sticking out behind the natural heel...in most cases.

I truly am not a fan of metal shoes, period.  But, they can and do have a place if applied correctly.  The first thing I noticed is that the breakover is really good.  Most of the time when you see a metal shoe applied, it is too far forward and inhibits breakover.

So, being the physics major that I'm NOT, it seems to me that the back of her foot needs to come down and if the pad/shoe is reapplied, it should be even or even slightly under the natural heel angle...something we usually don't talk about!

Just to make a point about this, I have my boy Pap in the new composite Easy Shoes.  There isn't a size that fits him, but I can easily adjust the heel length and toe breakover to get the size 1s small enough.

The first set I had on him I noticed that he didn't have the great heel landing that he always has had.  He was fine, sound, but not as 'boing-y'.  Just a smidge flat.  So, I took the grinder and beveled the heels of the Easy Shoe so that it aligned with the natural angle of his heel.  Immediate change!  That little bit of squared edge of the heel of the shoe inhibited his landing gear from touching down without a big bump.

I can do a markup later about the heel angle.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

eswilli2@...
 

Linda,
Thank you!  You are really good at what you do? Your April comments set things in motion to getting us going in the right direction along with the support and direction from Nancy Collins in NH. 

Emmie is not in pain. We have adjusted, changed and managed well for the past 90 days. 

The soft ride boots and these shoes have allowed for excellent sole growth but......

These shoes were put on June 25 right after taking the toe back.  We thought Emmie was tipping over because the toe was gone and expected to see her walking better but she is still tipping over when she takes a step.  Before these shoes Emmie was walking (in her Soft Rides) with all 4 feet.  Reaching--Now she shuffles and shuffles front toes first.  She can't get back on her heel. 

The farrier has not talked to us yet about these RADS.  The vet is OK with the way Emmie is  moving.  We expect they want to keep Emmie in these shoes.  We had the vet take the RADS now so we have time to come up with a plan before the Farrier appointment July 30. 

What are some other approaches to consider?

Please advise.

Ellen Willis
Strafford New Hampshire
Joined March 2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ellen%20Willis/

 


Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

PapBallou@...
 

Ellen -

It's pretty hard to make any comments about x-rays without knowing how Emmie is feeling.  I'm a bit concerned about the axis on the LF, and a little on the RF but I am not the one standing on those feet.  Emmie is.  Is she improved?  What is the plan for the next set of these shoes?  There certainly is a big improvement in sole depth from those first pix several months ago and breakover support for the CB seems to reasonably correct.

Without knowing more of the current story as far as Emmie is doing, an opinion is just that...and opinion with not much value added.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: ACTH - glucose and leptin

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Gayel,


You're right - glucose is the missing value. Unfortunately, it's still missing. In order to change anything in your case history you need to upload a new case history form with any added/changed info then delete the old form. Best way to do this is to keep the latest version stored on your computer, update that then upload as needed.


No grain. Just feed hay until test time. What you don't want is to have Spirit go more than 6 hours without hay. If he does then for the 4 hours after his first meal after that 6 hours of "faasting" he will have an insulin/glucose spike that won't reflect his real status.


His ACTH was very high and will keep rising unless he is on pergolide to control the PPID. Uncontrolled PPID will also push his insulin/glucose numbers up as well. Laminitis is the most obviously dangerous consequence of this cascade but there are other issues as well. The immune system becomes compromised so he tends to pick up more infections and not be able to clear them. Over-reactions to vaccinations and bug bites become more common, muscling - esp along the topline -  decreases. Have a read on our website for more in-depth info on the consequences of leaving PPID untreated:


http://www.ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease


What he was experiencing is called the "Pergolide Veil". This is a transient side effect of starting the medication and can be mitigated/eliminated by tapering slowly onto the drug. An adaptogen called APF is also extremely helpful during the adjustment period. Because of his concurrent IR status his diet should also be managed to lower his insulin/glucose numbers to guard against laminitis rearing it's ugly head. Starting him on 1/4mg initially is a great idea. compounded pergolide would make this infinitely easier (and cheaper) for you as the Prascend caplets should not be quartered. If you will be using the Prascend, cut the caplet in half, dissolve in a few cc's of water in a syringe and give half of the syringe contents on day one, refrigerate the remainder, then give that on the second day. Repeat for 3 pills (6 days) then go to 1/2mg daily (1.2 caplet) for 6 days, then do 3/4, then a full pill. Will need to retest after 2-3 weeks at the full dose to see if the dose is high enough. This likely won't be enough as by then you will be in the seasonal rise period and his ACTH will continue to climb so you end up "chasing the numbers". Difficult but doable.


Ideally, testing now would be good so you know exactly where you stand and how far from normal he is. It is likely his numbers have risen since the last test and will continue to do until at least late October. If he were mine, and finances permitted it, I would test now, start the pergolide immediately after the testing (without waiting for the results) then plan to raise the dosage even more to try to compensate for the rise effect. Then retest in Sept to see where I stood.


He is IR as well as PPID. His insulin is solidly elevated and his leptin is right on the edge of high normal. These are additional red flags that Spirit is  a lamintis time bomb waiting to go off.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Emmie in July.TWH.NH

eswilli2@...
 

We are on the 4th team and we still don't have a cohesive team.  I posted RADS we had taken on Monday.  I would like to hear from the Hoof trimmers in the group about what they see in the RADS I posted to echistory8 Album-Emmie in July.TWH.NH

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/271012743



Ellen Willis
Strafford New Hampshire
Joined March 2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ellen%20Willis/



Re: ACTH - glucose and leptin

Gayel Ambrose <gayel@...>
 

Hi:

Thank you for the reply, sorry I forgot about adding the link to my e mail.

You mentioned the Leptin was not listed on history but I checked and Leptin was there, but glucose was missing.  I have added that.  The test was done in February.  You said to feed him his hay as usual, but did not mention his morning grain feeding.  I do still give him that as normal, right?  The vet draws blood about 1-1/2 hours after he is fed.  

I put him on Prascend and he did so badly on it that I took him off.  At 30 yrs old I would rather have a happy horse than worry about numbers.  He lost so much weight and was so lethargic and depressed I could not leave him on it.  I am thinking of trying again with just 1/4 of a 1mg pill and see how he does.

We are still working on his top line, which was great until we started the medication.  I left him on it for about 2 months.  He is back to doing wonderful work in the arena and on the trail, trotting and cantering and no lethargy now, very bright eyed and happy.  He has been getting acupuncture for Cushings and seeing improvements.  He never had a long curly, shaggy coat, but just a little denser than other horses.  He mostly shed out on his own this year and I have gone over 3 months without clipping him which I cannot remember how many years it has been since that happened.  I usually clip every 4 or 5 weeks even in the winter.

I kind of wanted to try him on 1/4 Prascend for a while before we do the test again, but it will be August shortly and did not know if that was too late and I should try and retest yet in July.





Re: Maverick has gone over the Rainbow Bridge - Perfolid...

titancowgirl
 

Dear Erin ~ Love to you and to Maverick as he makes his journey across the Bridge. What a wonderful run you two had together!  I always think of it as our respective love stories with our equine companions- the adentures shared, the laughs, the challenges faced, the battles won and the battles lost , and finally , the loving goodbyes.  Be kind to yourself now & know that each of us that has loved and lost will have you in our thoughts. ~Grace, Thor & Flying Feature    2002 New York
 

In a message dated 7/9/2014 10:02:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EquineCushings@... writes:
 

Erin, I'm so sorry for your loss.  What wonderful memories.  I wish you peace and happy memories.  Fly free, Maverick, green grass and blue skies forever.  Amy in PA '06ish (Herbie IR, Darby, lost beloveds on the HIH site Echo, Dylan, Pebbles, Cherry, Misty who was C/IR)



---In EquineCushings@..., wrote :

Last week I had to say goodbye to my friend of 27 years, Maverick, Breeding Stock paint gelding 27 years old who was diagnosed with Cushings at 16 in November 2003.  Through this group's help I kept him going really 

There is so much more that could be said but I know that everyone who has let their best friend go knows what I am going through. 


If there is something that I need to post to any of the databases about Maverick's passing c ould someone let me know?


Erin O'Shaughnessy & Maverick

Vancouver WA

Nov 2003


 


Re: ACTH 77

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Larina,


As you say, at least it seems she is getting her meds 6 days out of seven. Certainly not ideal but a bit of an improvement. And at least it sounds as if Daisy is holding her own in general so that is also a plus.


PPID is a progressive condition no matter what you do. With medication, it appears to slow that progression to some degree. Daisy isn't necessarily progressing rapidly at this point, it may just be that the proper dose to control her PPID hasn't been reached and with the medication mishaps going on it is difficult to assess exactly where you stand. A .5mg jump in the dose is not a particularly large jump and 1.5mg total is quite common - one of my boys is currently on 16mg. If possible, I would recommend tapering the dose up to the 1.5mg - get (4) .25 mg capsules along with the 1.5mg capsules so that you can start with 1.25mg for 4 days then go to the 1.5mg. Will need to retest after consistent administration of 1.5mg to see where you stand. If she were mine, I would be planning on needing to go to at least 2mg during the seasonal period (maybe more) to maintain good control, then possibly being able to drop back down in late Dec/early Jan after the rise is over.


It appears that all the earlier ACTH testing was done at Michigan State. Unfortunately, we have found that there seem to be issues with false negatives from them so it is quite possible that Daisy has been PPID for a longer period than the positive test in 7/2013. We have had members send split samples to both MSU and Cornell and the results from Cornell consistently returned with higher values.


Know you are having trouble accessing your CH. Can you send the update to me and I can get it uploaded for you?


Hang in there. We know how stressful this must be for you.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


>>>>>>

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Sedona%20Daisy/






Re: ACTH 77

larina.alton
 

Yes, I know the barn is being negligent! I am very upset. And yes - I'm an attorney, I know I could take legal action but all I really want is to know my girl is getting the care she needs. I have appointments at two new barns to take a look at alternatives today and tomorrow.
 
Is going up by .5 dose quite a large step, or is that normal given how badly her PPID is apparently progressing? Is there any reason to try a lower step up to 1.25 or should I just go for it? Her mood seems ok. I heard from someone at the barn that it is about 1x a week that she is not getting her medication for the last three weeks, so while that is bad I am not sure it's enough to have her bloodwork this far out of whack. The progression may be due to some earlier lapses in Febrary and March, when I came back from out-of-state work trips to find that she had not been given the pergolide for the entire week I was out of town! Both times I said it was medically dangerous and that it was a risk to my horse's life and was told it would be taken care of. Good gracious, I could rant.  I have been so upset, but her weight was good, coat glossy, and she seemed happy and horse barns are hard to find so I was hoping not to have to move.
 
She had normal insulin in October 2013 (non-fasting, should be in her medical history but I still can't access the folder for some reason) and when I tested it in April 2012. Neither test was taken fasting. I did not get that re-tested, just the ACTH.
 
Thank you!!!!
 
Larina Alton
http://pets. groups.yahoo. com/group/ echistory7/ files/Sedona% 20Daisy/
Sedona Daisy, member since July 2013
Hennipen County MN

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