Date   

Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

 

>This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint. 
her symptoms : cresty neck, fat pads, over weight, trips easily, unwilling to move, sore hind end often very contracted hindquarter muscles. lays down alot.. 


Julie,
At the risk of making the mods unhappy,  I am wondering if the paint mare has PSSM (aka EPSM) from low selenium plus  IR as evidenced from the fat pads, crest, etc? Has she been tested for PSSM with a muscle biopsy and DNA plus selenium and vit E levels? 
 
Many years ago my daughter's mare, Lyric,  was found to be allergic to almost all hay BUT Timothy hay.  Most of the Timothy available in southern California is grown in your area of the country and is deficient in selenium.  You know this, but I did not and my vet did not educate me.  Fast forward almost a whole year and poor Lyric had a horrific episode of tying up with elevated liver enzymes for over 3 months.  Muscle biopsy found many inclusion bodies indicative of PSSM. But DNA was negative for the known genetic markers of PSSM.   Her selenium level was less than 10 (normal per testing lab is greater than 25).  Lack of selenium can cause PSSM and hind end weakness/tying up. 

One thing that Lyric had before her PSSM diagnosis was rock hard hind quarter muscles.  Once her selenium and vit E levels were normalized the muscles softened.  We had thought the hard butt was from exercise and using it. 

Several years later my mare, Jazzi had several episodes of strange hind end weakness.  Her musculature was normal to the touch. This was before her IR diagnosis.  At that time Jazzi was on half local bermuda and Timothy hay diet.  She was doing both endurance and competitive trail (lots of muscle contractions).  Addition of selenium and vit E to Jazzi's diet fixed the strange hind end weakness.  

 My vet teaches that a horse need 5 mg of selenium with 5,000IU of vit E per day.  A hard working horse (lots of muscle contractions) will need more selenium and E. 

The paint mare could have PSSM partially masked by the a)  large amounts of vit E she is receiving and b) small amounts of selenium in the California Trace PLUS being insulin resistant with laminitis. 

Here is some info on PSSM/EPSM (Dr Kellon is quoted in it and a low sugar/starch diet is recommended too):

And here is a link to Dr Valberg's web site.  Muscle biopsy and DNA analysis go to her:

I may be totally off base with this, but having walked this path the story of the paint looked so familiar to me.  I hope this helps in some way. 

Nancy and Jazzi

San Diego County

March 2013

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Nancy%20Reed/






Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

paulah@...
 

Hi Julie,
Because you care so much and you know so much about IR, it's hard not to do something.  Because it is not ethical or nice to whack a friend over the head, you might just ask her why not test for IR and rule that out.  If her horse is IR, there is lots of special management she would have to do, so that might appeal to her desire to have a "sick" horse.  I have a friend with a PPID horse that is content with getting the numbers down to 75 and the vet suggested to reduce the Prascend to 1 mg/day now that the numbers are lower.  I stopped getting myself upset about it.  I gave her the information, I explained that PPID is a progressive disease and that Dr. Kellon recommends getting the number in the mid range and that dropping the dose before the seasonal rise was putting her horse at even higher risk.  It's not my horse, I have no control.  
Put your energy into the things over which you have control.  Pony's coat looks great!  You can use up your excess energy getting those feet trimmed!
;o)   
I always enjoy reading your posts Julie!  Keep up the good work!

PS  If you can get your vet to do what you want and the vet is competent, you might want to keep her.  You already know not to listen to her advice!

Paula  (Cory IR and Onyx no ECIR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011         

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Cory/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/275503778




---In EquineCushings@..., <bigwhitevan2002@...> wrote :

Hello,

This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint.


... I think she likes having a 'sick ' horse for all the attention.... I dunno I am just irritated by it all, anyone have any similar experiences with friends? and do you just walk away? 


I am seriously so annoyed I might stop using this VET.


Julie

Oregon 06

Yahoo! Groups

Yahoo! Groups


Re: Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

Nancy C
 

Hi All

Good for your clients, Debra.

Don't for get about the LINKS section.   Several listings there with direct LINKS to websites.  Lots of other good info too.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/links/all


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



 






Re: Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

Lorna Cane
 


From Maggie's post this morning - a very popular source is http://www.pethealthpharmacy.com/ 



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

 

I have always had luck with Thriving Pets and I understand they are one of the more consistent pharmacies when it comes to compounding.
 
Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10


On Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:51 AM, "layzd@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:




I have finally convinced the local vet to let us use an on line (cheaper) source for pergolide for my client horses.  I looked in the files for a list of places to order from, but don't see a file for that.  I thought there might be one. 

Is there a list of suppliers members have used with good success? 

Debora
Hamilton MT






Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

 

I have finally convinced the local vet to let us use an on line (cheaper) source for pergolide for my client horses.  I looked in the files for a list of places to order from, but don't see a file for that.  I thought there might be one. 

Is there a list of suppliers members have used with good success? 

Debora
Hamilton MT



Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

bigwhitevan2002
 


Hey Kathleen !!
nice to 'see' you too, I think of you here and there especially when I hear something about Branson MO. ..

I will keep tying for the mares sake, I really think this gal loves the attention she gets for having a 'special case' horse, I have mentioned low grade laminitis-- oh I dunno about a thousand times and get shot down every time, vet says hoof testers show nothing , her trimmer says her feet are fine , tho after her trim on Monday the next day she was lame in both fronts, and laying down again. BIG SIGH... 

This is the same Debby downer who was giving me grief that my Pony was a goner back in February, when she foundered, I also suspect that even tho pony was on strict feed guidelines would still give her ' little ' treats, needless to say we moved pony out of harms way..=== saying all that to say this...

she is 100% vet believing even tho I have pointed out that vets are great for medical things, but often miss the boat on nutrition..and more often miss the boat on lameness....I will keep trying in about a week when her poor horse is again lame, after another abscess, even tho she never goes outside to get any kind of injury to cause such..

again nice to here from you...pony is still going strong, Kayla is now PPID , Richie is 7!!! 
Julie
Oregon, 06

---In EquineCushings@..., <katmando@...> wrote :

Hi Julie - long time! Nice to see you, but not under these circumstances.
Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
December 2005
Director, ECIR Inc.


Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

 

Hi Julie - long time! Nice to see you, but not under these circumstances.

The best way to induce IR in a non-IR animal is to feed high fat. This is done routinely in lab animals to study IR. You might point this out to your friend. Do you think the mare has laminitis, too?

Never heard of "hops" in horses. Maybe if your friend sat down and did a Google search and saw for herself what comes up and then compares to "equine insulin resistance," she could draw some parallels?

I know your frustration. The old, "you can lead a horse to water..." adage. Still, at only 4 years of age - what a waste!

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
December 2005
Director, ECIR Inc.


Re: Prascend vs Pergolide

Maggie
 

Hi Diane,
 
Welcome to the list!  You may have already read about it, but let me explain our philosophy a bit and then I will answer your question  Our philosophy is called DDT/E.  That stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. To help you better, we ask all members to fill out a case history on their horse.  It gives us the details we need to help you better.  You will have to join our sister site ECH8 to fill that out, but it shouldn't take long to get approved.  Here's the link:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  Once approved, just follow the instructions on that page to fill out your case history.  In the meantime, let me explain the details of our DDT/E philosophy to you.
 
Diagnosis:  Is through a single blood draw on a NON-fasting horse for eACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin, preferably sent to Cornell.  The blood requires special handling and the details can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis  The reason it's so important to get a complete diagnosis is that a horse can have just PPID (Cushings), just IR (insulin resistance), or both PPID and IR together, and the diagnosis dictates the treatment.  PPID is treated with pergolide, IR is treated with diet and a combination of PPID and IR is treated with both pergolide and careful diet management for the rest of the horse's life.  A high ACTH can drive the insulin level up causing a double whammy risk for development of laminitis since both high ACTH and high insulin levels put the horse at risk.  So you have a diagnosis of PPID with an ACTH  of 38.  You're plan too start pergolide is a good one.  Keep in mind that we are entering our seasonal rise when all horses have a natural rise in their ACTH, but PPID horses have a longer and more exaggerated rise in their ACTH than non PPID horses.  0.5mg of Prascend may not be enough for your Arab during the seasonal rise.  More information can be found about the seasonal rise on our website here: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise  To avoid the "pergolide veil" (lethargy, lack of appetite), which some, but not all horses experience when starting on pergolide, we recommend weaning on to the drug, starting with 0.25 mg for 3 or 4 days, and increasing by 0.25mg every 3 or 4 days until you reach your target dose.  If your horse does experience the "pergolide veil" there is an adaptogen called APF that we have found really helps. http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html    Once on your target dose for 2 weeks, we recommend that you get another ACTH to make sure the ACTH is under control.  It would be great if we could all afford to do ACTH levels as frequently as we'd like to, but if that's not in the budget, here's a great post from Patti on monitoring symptoms:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/111988   When you say "thankfully, he is not IR",  are you going by the labs "normals'?  The labs "normal range is too high.  To see if he is IR or not, you need to enter his insulin and glucose into the G:I calculator.  Here's a link: http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html   Arabs are well known for being IR!
 
Diet:  The diet that we recommend is a balanced low sugar starch (under 10% sugar plus starch) low fat (4% or under) diet.  So that's grass hay (tested to be under 10% sugar+starch) with minerals added to balance the hay to the analysis, and to replace the fragile ingredients lost in the hay curing process we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  If you haven't had your hay tested yet we recommend starting the emergency diet.  Details can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet   The IR diet is also good for PPID horses!  As important as what you do feed in the IR diet is what you don't feed!  No grazing, no apples, carrots or other sugary treats.  White salt blocks, not brown or red ones.  Once you get your CH done, we can help you to evaluate the feeds and/or supplements that you are currently using.  Once you get your hay analysis done, one of our balancing folks can help you to balance your minerals to you hay analysis.  Some PPID horses do graze, but I'd be doubly sure that he doesn't come up IR with the G:I calculator and also that his ACTH is solidly in the middle of the normal.
 
Trim:  Though we don't recommend any one trim method, a proper barefoot trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely supports the internal structure of the foot.  You are welcome to post pictures of your Arab's feet so that one of our hoof gurus can look and see if you have a proper trim in place.  Here's a site that shows how to take good hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 
 
Exercise:  The best IR buster there is!  But a laminitic horse should never be forced to move. 
 
Ok, so that's the basics of our philosophy.  Now to answer your question!   Yes, compounded pergolide is still available at a far less cost than Prascend.  Here is one place where you can get it with a prescription from your vet:  http://www.pethealthpharmacy.com/  We recommend only purchasing 30 days at a time and storing it on the door of the refrigerator to maintain the best stability.  The powdered capsules are the most stable form, with the liquid, powder in a jar, etc having stability issues, especially after 14 days.
 
Diane, we ask that all members sign each post with their name, date of joining, and general location.  And once you get your case history done, please include a link to it in your signature as well. It really helps the volunteers to find your information faster, and answer your questions faster.  Don't hesitate to ask any questions as they come up! 
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/

 


Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

Nancy C
 

OK I get it. Thank you Lars.

So it would appear we have come full circle and that the main consideration left in what to choose is the cost factor.

General recommendation from ECIR  is 1000 lb horse gets 2000 IU.Make sure it is in oil

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <spottythehorse@...> wrote :



Normally, the vitamin E content in a capsule is given in IU and there is no difference between e.g. 400 IU of synthetic form of vitamin E and 400 IU of the natural form. Both have the same biological activity. However, the capsule containing the synthetic form of vitamin E will be larger since it contains a larger amount of fluid.





Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

> NRC lists natural at 1.36 more bioavailable.

I did respond to this but my response seems to have been eaten up by Yahoo neo. Here it is again. Sorry if it will appear twice.

1.36 is the conversion factor for natural d-alpha-tocopheryl acetate. There are different forms of natural and synthetic forms of vitamin E all with their individual conversion factor. However, most of the time the vitamin E content in a capsule is given in IU, e.g. 400 IU, and then you don’t need to do any conversion. 400 IU of a synthetic form is just as potent as 400 IU of a natural form. It’s only when the vitamin E content is given in mg (milligrams) that you have to convert mg to IU.

Lars
Sweden, July 2008





How do I convert International units (IU) to mcg or mg?


 


 



 
 


Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <LLKeach@...> wrote :

> What is the dosage for Natural Vit. E?   I did not see it in the files in EC Horsekeeping.  I am unable to do the conversion......1.36% more available means nothing to me.  :)
 
The requirement for vitamin E is given in IU so the requirement is the same regardless of what form of vitamin E you are using.

Basically, Dr. Kellon recommends 4 IU/kg BW for IR horses.

Lars
Sweden, July 2008



Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

> If you use NRC bioavailability rates and to me it means natural is a little more than one-third more available, so to me the theory is that you should be able to use one third less than synthetic.



You have to be careful with statements like this. Normally, the vitamin E content in a capsule is given in IU and there is no difference between e.g. 400 IU of synthetic form of vitamin E and 400 IU of the natural form. Both have the same biological activity. However, the capsule containing the synthetic form of vitamin E will be larger since it contains a larger amount of fluid.


Lars
Sweden, July 2008



Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

bigwhitevan2002
 

Hmm...
well I will talk to owner and see if the next time she has the vet over or when she trailers this mare back to the clinic they will pull insulin/ leptin and glucose etc... the mare is also on lots of vitamin E per vet instructions,

I have given her some California trace to give the mare also, and she has purchased her own, we are deficient in selenium, and it seems pretty good for that,   I also have suggested mag ox which she is doing..
I will keep trying, the horse is only 4 and could be so great as a trail horse..such a waste right now..makes me sad.

Thanks all...

Julie
Oregon 06


Pony in Oregons hoof pics

bigwhitevan2002
 

Hello helpful people,

I finally got pony's latest hoof pics up, they are kinda of a mess, I am pretty sure what  needs to be done, but am not confident enough to do it...I   would like some mark ups to give to the farrier along with any instructions. I have rasped her a bit about 3-4 weeks ago or so before my mother was sick and passed..


I included a front shot so you can see that she is standing a little pidgin toed, this is new for her, as well as a full body shot to show how great she looks these days, the pergolide really helped improve her coat, she is pot bellied but she is 34 and I haven't been able to exercise her much due to the heat as well as my family stresses at this time..


Thanks to all for your helps and encouragements in all things equine.

Julie 

Oregon 06

Yahoo! Groups



Re: Emmie in July.TWH.NH

CJ Stumpf
 

Hi Ellen,

Like you, we have used the Morrison Roller Motion shoes from SoundHorse, with fill to the ground.  We got great sole depth development in them. 

We use the glue-on with the cuffs.  We like them despite the expense, but with the following conditions:

1) we found the cuffs were helpful because the cuffs effectively cast the foot (look up "pete ramey equicast", or look up old messages about equicast and epona shoes by Linda or EC Primary response - same person who has already been responding to you).

1a) we found that using Vettec SuperFast all around the hoof wall to the heel (with or without the shoe as it turned out) can be used in a way to have the effect of casting the foot, so if that was done instead of using Vettec Adhere with the cuffed shoes the effect should be the same.

2) the equipac soft/equipak combo was not a good combination of fill in our experience.  As far was we could determine, equipak had too much give or too much bounce or both.  We found that a full pour of Equibuild to the ground worked better and longer term. We hypothesize that there was too much "bounce" from the equipak, vs the equibuild which does provide shock absorption but does not have any bounce.  (Unfortunately equibuild is a huge pain to work with because it is runny and has a long set time, but the results have been worth it)

3) the trim is the foundation of the shoe.  The shoe can be very helpful and our experience has matched yours - a tremendous improvement in sole depth when paired with fill to the ground - but if it is put on a hoof that is not trimmed properly for the situation the horse it in, it is not magically going to fix that.  I'll leave any actual comments about the actual hoof preparation to Linda, Lavinia, et al. and to your farrier - there may well have been factors not obvious from the x-rays about why the foot was prepped that way. 

So I guess my wrap up is that if your horse' sole depth was compromised (which is painful and is also terrible for the circulation so critical in laminitis recovery, and so bad for proper breakover) and the shoes helped the sole depth, and your horse had a period of increased comfort in them, nobody should be shot.  Next is to ook at the situation as it is now and make the best decision about the next step.  Which it seems you are in process of doing.

Hope this info is of some use.  I wish our experience didn't cover it but since it does, hopefully it helps someone.

-CJ VT 2011

tel: +1 617 816 8766
fax: +1 415 276 4554


Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

Lorna Cane
 


>Glucose isn't generally high with insulin resistance,but not knowing the glucose doesn't help us.


Meant to say not knowing *insulin* doesn't help us.


D for proof reading.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Prascend vs Pergolide

diane hawthorne
 

My 20 yo Arab was recently diagnosed with the early stages of Cushing's. His ACTH, when tested at the beginning of July, was 38. Thankfully, he is not IR. I'm going to start giving him CTB and .5 mg of prascend at the direction of my vet. My question is, is it still possible to buy pergolide and if so, where can I order it (with my vet's prescription)? She only sells Prascend which I understand is far more expensive. Thank you in advance.


Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Long story short here,she needs to get insulin tested. The results will then direct therapy.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julie,


When you hear barking it's best to think dog first rather than werewolf.


The fat pads, crest, overweight, tripping, hind end soreness are classic for subclinical laminitis. Was the high glucose actually above normal range or still within the labs normal ranges? If outside normal, that's diabetic by definition. Is there any distortion in the hoof walls - rings, steeper wall growth just below the coronary band? Has the vet done nerve blocks on the front feet to whether this makes the horse sounder? XRays of feet? obviously, insulin/glucose/leptin blood work is indicated.


These would be the simplest, most cost effective, most obvious diagnostics to perform before chasing werewolves.


Obviously recommending feeding high fat to treat EPM (EPSM?) when the test results were negative makes no sense. Neither does recommending a high s/s feed along with low s/s hay.


Sounds like you may be on to something with the reasons behind this owner's (and vet's) continued obsession with finding an obscure diagnosis without eliminating the basics first.


Only you can decide when it is time to disengage for the sake of your sanity. There is only so much you can do for someone else's animal when they won't listen.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Suppoprt Team


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