Date   

Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

sally.stork
 

STOP blaming yourself! I had the same thing with my horse years ago and my vet told me its not a bad trim you did(or from farrier doing it) in these type horses---they have lots of nerve damage intheir feet like diabetic people get intheir feet and whoever trimmed it is going to get a slight sore horse---most have high insulin and need it lowered and the feet protected in boots. Sally, Elkton,MD, since 2009


Re: Omega 3 and Vit E

Joan and Dazzle
 

I think this is an important topic. Lars is right.

1 iu = 1 iu

This already takes into account the differences in biological activity between synthetic vitamin E and the natural vitamin E.

I also think that it's very important that when we make recommendations on the list, that we attempt to be as accurate as possible. At that point, the horse owner can make up their own mind as to their course of action, based on accurate information.

Great catch, Lars.

Joan and Dazzle
Anaheim, CA 2006





Re: chia

Nancy C
 

Hi Marilyn

Check the Spread Sheet link as Lorna has reminded and be amazed!

Flax has both 3 and 6s in the correct proportion.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <midnightexpressb_27@...> wrote :

So should we not worry about feeding our horses the Omega 6s then and just feed the flax seed? I though we needed to get both of the omegas into them?

  Marilyn & Bud in MI

2013


Re: help with pony trim..

PapBallou@...
 

Julie -

Had a chance to take a look.  Actually looks like the trim needs general housekeeping to get it back to where it was...heels, toes and some side wall length and they should look like they did before these recent sad events.  Trimming toes is usually the biggest concern, but don't bring them back until you lower heels.  IOWs, don't focus on the toes, which were the main problems in the past and not lower heels at the same time.

Back to the red/blue line, careful with how much you roll the red area, and then lower to the blue dots/line on the sole view.  I think if you look at some of your past photos, you can see exactly what you need to do.

Yahoo! Groups

 



Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: grazing muzzles

leslie davis <lestop80@...>
 

I agree with the findings but also the muzzle itself makes a difference. How it fits, size of the hole and the horse's ability to deal with it. I had one completely shut down - the mare was SO frustrated with it, that she gave up trying to eat at all until I took it off. Then I have her daughter who just mows right on like 'no big deal'.
Leslie in TX


Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

bigwhitevan2002
 


Hi Nancy,


just a quick answer for you is yes, she had the biopsy and the DNA test all came back negative, the vet still has her on the high VIT  E dosing, but nothing about selenium, so she is just getting the 2mg in the cal trace which is minimal, as she is feeding the same hay as me and it tested very low in selenium. 


I will go with the idea of trying for getting an insulin test and see if they will test her selenium levels also   ==,hopefully my friend will consider this..I hope we can find out what is wrong with this horse, she is related to my IR/PPID mare not closely but have the same Paint lines...


sorry for the off topicness....moderators thanks for indulging me..


Julie

and pony in Oregon

06





>>>>>>>>>Julie,
??????????At the risk of making the mods unhappy,  I am wondering if the paint mare has PSSM (aka EPSM) from low selenium plus  IR as evidenced from the fat pads, crest, etc? Has she been tested for PSSM with a muscle biopsy and DNA plus selenium and vit E levels? 

The paint mare could have PSSM partially masked by the a)  large amounts of vit E she is receiving and b) small amounts of selenium in the California Trace PLUS being insulin resistant with laminitis. 

Here is some info on PSSM/EPSM (Dr Kellon is quoted in it and a low sugar/starch diet is recommended too):

And here is a link to Dr Valberg's web site.  Muscle biopsy and DNA analysis go to her:

I may be totally off base with this, but having walked this path the story of the paint looked so familiar to me.  I hope this helps in some way. 






 


Effectiveness of grazing muzzles

Susan Zingle
 

From the Journal of Equine Veterinary Science, Volume 34, Issue 7

Abstract 

The impact of horse preference and grass morphology on grazing muzzle effectiveness has not been investigated. The objective of this study was to determine the effectiveness of grazing muzzle use at reducing forage intake when horses grazed grasses with different morphology and preferences. The study was conducted in 2012 and 2013. Four horses were grazed in 2012, and three horses were grazed in 2013. Four species of perennial cool-season grasses were grazed in 2012 including Kentucky bluegrass (Poa pratensis L.), meadow fescue (Schedonorus pratensis Huds.), perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.), and reed canarygrass (Phalaris arundinacea L.). In 2013, only Kentucky bluegrass and reed canarygrass were grazed because of winter kill of other species. Horses were allowed to graze a small pasture seeded with an individual species for 4 hours each day in June and August of 2012 and August and September of 2013. Horses grazed the same grass species for two consecutive days, one day with a muzzle and one day without. Before and after each grazing, a strip was mechanically harvested to determine initial and residual herbage mass. The difference was used to estimate forage intake. The effectiveness of a grazing muzzle was not affected by forage species (P ≥ .05). Use of a grazing muzzle decreased the amount of forage consumed by an average of 30% compared with not using a grazing muzzle (P < .0001). Results will aid horse owners and professionals in estimating forage intake of muzzled horses on pasture.
(I added bold - think you have to subscribe to get the whole article.)

Susan, with Pony, in Chicago, member since 2003  


ACTH Testing ?

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Mods and All,


A friend and fellow Board member is having  Neo issues and asked me to post the following question for her. 


Thank you,


Kathy Brinkerhoff


SE/WI 10/07


Gelding, 15 years old, draft/shire
 
Ulysses was tested for ACTH/Insulin/Glucose/Leptin  December 5, 2013.
According to the IR calculator he is IR...Intermediate
Compensated IR, laminitis risk
 
RISQI 0.31
MIRG 6.47
 
His labs were:
 
ACTH  29.2 pg/ml
Insulin 10.69 ulU/ml (can't quite read the letters. Numbers clear)
Glucose 82
Leptin 5.04 ng/ml
 
My question is...If his ACTH was 29.2 in December should I be doing/watching/whatever something as the seasonal rise is beginning or after it has started or at the height of the seasonal rise?  I do not have the resources to test every time I need to.  And if I really need to test probably could only afford one time for a check. Of course if the check came back positive I would scramble around to do a second check after he is on meds.
 
Donna Powell
Beaufort, SC

ECIR May 2011



Re: chia

Lorna Cane
 

>So should we not worry about feeding our horses the Omega 6s then and just feed the flax seed? 



Hi Marilyn,

Did you have a chance to check out Nancy's message link?

"There is a comparison chart in the files that shows the how Flax, Chia, Rice Bran, BOSS, hemp, and split peas compare in various areas. "

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%203%20%20CORE%20DIET%2C%20ANALYSIS%2C%20NUTRITIONAL%20NEEDS/Omega%203%20%26%20Omega%206%20Info/

 


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc







 


Re: chia

Marilyn Mannino
 

So should we not worry about feeding our horses the Omega 6s then and just feed the flax seed? I though we needed to get both of the omegas into them?

  Marilyn & Bud in MI

2013


Where to buy chelated minerals?

Danielle Wiegert
 

such as Cu proteinate or Cu amino acid complex etc?

Danielle
Portland OR
Jan 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Danielle%20-%20Oregon/

 




Re: Bounce Blood test results

Ruth Vale
 


I wrote previously:
    Problem last year was not that he was obese (not) but rather he was carrying small fat pockets in the wrong places and otherwise looking ribby and unthrifty (definitely NOT morganish!).  Bigger issues with his disinterest
....Xrays (taken in February 2014) are posted.  Vet & Farrier saw no sign of rotation.  More recent photographs are scheduled. 

Pictures taken 2014-07-18 are posted. Interesting to compare pictures from last Feb and now in July.  I've trimmed the album to keep only the most important photos.   He is due for a trim in 2-3 weeks.  Comments that I can convey to the trimmer are welcome.  I think she's done an amazing job.


Skin/Hair Loss in IR horse

afrazier726@...
 

Hi All,


Just a quick question for you knowledgeable people! 


My IR mare has significant hair loss on her back hindquarters. Her skin is showing  and parts of it are raw. Her left hindquarter is worse than her right, which I think may be attributed to when she lays down, it is prominintly on that side. 


Could it be a fungus? A reaction to fly spray? Or something worse? It's ONLY there. Her whole life she has been prone to fungal infections like scratches on the backs of her fetlocks from time to time but her fungal issues usually resolve themselves with minor intervention. 


Additionally, she is recovering from founder this past May and is doing amazing! She is fully weight bearing, her attitude and demeanor is that of her fiery, ornery self. Her appetite and water consumption is normal, her feed has not changed at all. 


Also she has had diarrehea for about a month now. Probiotics were suggested from the vet but they didn't help. Any ideas? 


I have to get her IR re-tested but the vet wanted her weight to go down before testing. Since her founder its been slow but a steady decline in weight. Especially now that she is moving around  and has turnout (no grass, just a dirt round pen) for about 6 hours a day. 


Thank you! 


Amy and Daisy

May 2014

Lakeview Terrace, CA 


Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

 

>This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint. 
her symptoms : cresty neck, fat pads, over weight, trips easily, unwilling to move, sore hind end often very contracted hindquarter muscles. lays down alot.. 


Julie,
At the risk of making the mods unhappy,  I am wondering if the paint mare has PSSM (aka EPSM) from low selenium plus  IR as evidenced from the fat pads, crest, etc? Has she been tested for PSSM with a muscle biopsy and DNA plus selenium and vit E levels? 
 
Many years ago my daughter's mare, Lyric,  was found to be allergic to almost all hay BUT Timothy hay.  Most of the Timothy available in southern California is grown in your area of the country and is deficient in selenium.  You know this, but I did not and my vet did not educate me.  Fast forward almost a whole year and poor Lyric had a horrific episode of tying up with elevated liver enzymes for over 3 months.  Muscle biopsy found many inclusion bodies indicative of PSSM. But DNA was negative for the known genetic markers of PSSM.   Her selenium level was less than 10 (normal per testing lab is greater than 25).  Lack of selenium can cause PSSM and hind end weakness/tying up. 

One thing that Lyric had before her PSSM diagnosis was rock hard hind quarter muscles.  Once her selenium and vit E levels were normalized the muscles softened.  We had thought the hard butt was from exercise and using it. 

Several years later my mare, Jazzi had several episodes of strange hind end weakness.  Her musculature was normal to the touch. This was before her IR diagnosis.  At that time Jazzi was on half local bermuda and Timothy hay diet.  She was doing both endurance and competitive trail (lots of muscle contractions).  Addition of selenium and vit E to Jazzi's diet fixed the strange hind end weakness.  

 My vet teaches that a horse need 5 mg of selenium with 5,000IU of vit E per day.  A hard working horse (lots of muscle contractions) will need more selenium and E. 

The paint mare could have PSSM partially masked by the a)  large amounts of vit E she is receiving and b) small amounts of selenium in the California Trace PLUS being insulin resistant with laminitis. 

Here is some info on PSSM/EPSM (Dr Kellon is quoted in it and a low sugar/starch diet is recommended too):

And here is a link to Dr Valberg's web site.  Muscle biopsy and DNA analysis go to her:

I may be totally off base with this, but having walked this path the story of the paint looked so familiar to me.  I hope this helps in some way. 

Nancy and Jazzi

San Diego County

March 2013

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Nancy%20Reed/






Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

paulah@...
 

Hi Julie,
Because you care so much and you know so much about IR, it's hard not to do something.  Because it is not ethical or nice to whack a friend over the head, you might just ask her why not test for IR and rule that out.  If her horse is IR, there is lots of special management she would have to do, so that might appeal to her desire to have a "sick" horse.  I have a friend with a PPID horse that is content with getting the numbers down to 75 and the vet suggested to reduce the Prascend to 1 mg/day now that the numbers are lower.  I stopped getting myself upset about it.  I gave her the information, I explained that PPID is a progressive disease and that Dr. Kellon recommends getting the number in the mid range and that dropping the dose before the seasonal rise was putting her horse at even higher risk.  It's not my horse, I have no control.  
Put your energy into the things over which you have control.  Pony's coat looks great!  You can use up your excess energy getting those feet trimmed!
;o)   
I always enjoy reading your posts Julie!  Keep up the good work!

PS  If you can get your vet to do what you want and the vet is competent, you might want to keep her.  You already know not to listen to her advice!

Paula  (Cory IR and Onyx no ECIR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011         

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Cory/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/275503778




---In EquineCushings@..., <bigwhitevan2002@...> wrote :

Hello,

This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint.


... I think she likes having a 'sick ' horse for all the attention.... I dunno I am just irritated by it all, anyone have any similar experiences with friends? and do you just walk away? 


I am seriously so annoyed I might stop using this VET.


Julie

Oregon 06

Yahoo! Groups

Yahoo! Groups


Re: Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

Nancy C
 

Hi All

Good for your clients, Debra.

Don't for get about the LINKS section.   Several listings there with direct LINKS to websites.  Lots of other good info too.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/links/all


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



 






Re: Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

Lorna Cane
 


From Maggie's post this morning - a very popular source is http://www.pethealthpharmacy.com/ 



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

 

I have always had luck with Thriving Pets and I understand they are one of the more consistent pharmacies when it comes to compounding.
 
Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10


On Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:51 AM, "layzd@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:




I have finally convinced the local vet to let us use an on line (cheaper) source for pergolide for my client horses.  I looked in the files for a list of places to order from, but don't see a file for that.  I thought there might be one. 

Is there a list of suppliers members have used with good success? 

Debora
Hamilton MT






Where to purchase compounded Pergolide

layzd@...
 

I have finally convinced the local vet to let us use an on line (cheaper) source for pergolide for my client horses.  I looked in the files for a list of places to order from, but don't see a file for that.  I thought there might be one. 

Is there a list of suppliers members have used with good success? 

Debora
Hamilton MT



Re: slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?

bigwhitevan2002
 


Hey Kathleen !!
nice to 'see' you too, I think of you here and there especially when I hear something about Branson MO. ..

I will keep tying for the mares sake, I really think this gal loves the attention she gets for having a 'special case' horse, I have mentioned low grade laminitis-- oh I dunno about a thousand times and get shot down every time, vet says hoof testers show nothing , her trimmer says her feet are fine , tho after her trim on Monday the next day she was lame in both fronts, and laying down again. BIG SIGH... 

This is the same Debby downer who was giving me grief that my Pony was a goner back in February, when she foundered, I also suspect that even tho pony was on strict feed guidelines would still give her ' little ' treats, needless to say we moved pony out of harms way..=== saying all that to say this...

she is 100% vet believing even tho I have pointed out that vets are great for medical things, but often miss the boat on nutrition..and more often miss the boat on lameness....I will keep trying in about a week when her poor horse is again lame, after another abscess, even tho she never goes outside to get any kind of injury to cause such..

again nice to here from you...pony is still going strong, Kayla is now PPID , Richie is 7!!! 
Julie
Oregon, 06

---In EquineCushings@..., <katmando@...> wrote :

Hi Julie - long time! Nice to see you, but not under these circumstances.
Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
December 2005
Director, ECIR Inc.

97701 - 97720 of 282074