Date   

Re: clarification on salt for the summer

palomino.1982@...
 

Beverly~

Often the confusion comes when using measurements ( tsp, TBS,etc) vs. actual elemental/ weight of a product.

Nancy's post broke it down perfectly:

450# needs 6gm SODIUM( using salt with 39% sodium ) which when using a gram scale=15.3gm of salt ~ this is gram weight.

If sweating for an hour+, then will need an additional 4.48gm of SODIUM, which =11.2 gram weight of 39% salt.

Purchase a gram scale!  They cost less than $20 and then you will be able to weigh 15.3 gm of salt, and then use an implement to measure out the correct dose.

I have 4 different brands of measuring spoons...each one holds a different amount of product.

Gram scale= no question about how much you are giving.

Susan
EC Primary Response
SoCal 2007


-


Re: clarification on salt for the summer

Nancy C
 

Summary:

Four grams of SODIUM.

That is bare minimum and not good enough

You want SIX grams of Sodium for maintenance.

That means almost 15 grams of SALT.

For one hour of sweating: add ADDITIONAL 11 grams of SALT.

This chart will help you. It has teaspoon references.

Go to

3 CORE DIET, ANALYSIS, NUTRITIONAL NEEDS tinyurl.com/ycz3wmo

Look for

Salt and Iodine

To find and save your Case History link go to the FILES section of  ECH8 and search on your name or Ginger's name.  Please use the link when posting questions.  We don't do attachments.  And it wouldn't help even if we did.

Up to you but, gram scales are inexpensive and using one can help you see what is going on.

Yahoo! Groups

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Can you summarize (and use teaspoons)? I don't
have a gram scale...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 


Re: Laminar Wedge

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,


If there is wedge you need to back the toes thru the wedge in order to get the wall realigned with the coffin bone. Just allowing the toes to be too far in front of where they need to be will cause a wedge from mechanical forces acting over time.


Really encourage you to post pics of the current situation so we can see what is actually going on and can advise you appropriately. As they say "a picture is worth a thousand words".


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




Re: clarification on salt for the summer

beverly meyer
 

Thanks Nancy,
We're in Texas so it's humid.
So back to teaspoons. You calculate her minimum (at 450 pounds) as 4
grams salt which is 2/3 of a teaspoon/day. Maybe that's a fall and
winter dose?
(One teaspoon salt is 5 1/2 grams....)
But then you indicate if she does sweat she goes to 28 grams of salt per
hour which is another 5 teaspoons/hour?
I must be reading wrong. Can you summarize (and use teaspoons)? I don't
have a gram scale...
I hope I'm not the only one needing help with this!!
Thank you ALL so much.
Beverly 5/14
Ginger EC8
History document is attached to this email - I couldn't find it in yahoo
so don't know how to link it.

--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: Laminitis related issue?

Kristin Gerlach <kristin@...>
 

HI Kelly-

I will let the more experienced folks here answer your questions in detail regarding figuring out the cause and how to approach it but i did want to share with you a product that my vet had recommended to me the last time my gelding was sore footed from a bout of laminitis. SoftRide boots! They have this thick gel insert pad and they made my horse instantly comfortable! SO worth the money to give my horse relief from pain and give him the opportunity to be comfortable while I addressed all the issues which caused the laminitis in the first place. Highly recommend! You can pay to have them shipped overnight.
I hope your horse gets on the road to recovery real soon.

Kristin CO 2013


THE PERGOLIDE DOSAGE DATABASE

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

http://tinyurl.com/m6syzt4


Thanks to the 2013 Neo Yahoo changes , the Database sections of the Yahoo groups no longer function properly.   To keep the database going it has been temporarily saved in PDF format and posted in a drop box location.  Due to this format change members  now must send emails to edit or add information.  If you need to edit your information or want to add a new horse to the database, just  fill out the short form from our files section and email it LeeAnne at ECIR.Archives <at> gmail <dot> com.  If you are  having file access issues just send LeeAnne an email to get an email copy of the form. 

 

Please update or add your equine to the database!  It won’t take long, and especially with the new columns, there will be big benefits to all horses with PPID and their owners down the road.   Already we have stats showing dosages on 250+ horses, information on occurrences of laminitis, life expectancy and more. With new horses and more updated data, the stats will be better than ever, answering some of the big questions regarding the use of pergolide.

 

"The only "correct" dose of pergolide is the one that controls his ACTH."
- Dr. Kellon, ECIR Message #132610, Sep 2, 2009.

 

Thank you for your cooperation and taking the time to “give back”.


Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cush



Re: Laminar Wedge

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Lavinia -
No the wall angle just below the Coronary Band is not steeper - so I am thinking that this has been a more recent development. I have backed her toes up to almost the wedge as the trimmer did the year after she foundered.
The local feed store can send hay out to be analyzed so I can see if it needs to be soaked. And I'll talk to my vet about Pergolide.
Thanks for all your help!
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014

---- "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Hi Karen,


Any of the scenarios you mention could potentially cause laminar separation. If the wall angle directly below the coronary band is steeper than the older wall below it, there has been a change in the relationship between the coffin bone and the hoof wall. If the trim doesn't take this into account by backing the breakover to coincide with the new angle of growth then a wedge forms.



Re: Lysodren/ vetoryl for horses?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Susan,


PPID in horses is different than Cushings in dogs. Different parts of the pituitary are involved so different drugs are used.


Lysodren isn't used in horses as its function is to destroy layers of the adrenals to lower the amount of cortisol being produced while Pergolide is used to replace the action of the lost dopaminergic neurons.Trilostane can be used but not much research available in horses and cost, if similar to that for dogs, would likely be prohibitive.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





Re: Laminar Wedge

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,


Any of the scenarios you mention could potentially cause laminar separation. If the wall angle directly below the coronary band is steeper than the older wall below it, there has been a change in the relationship between the coffin bone and the hoof wall. If the trim doesn't take this into account by backing the breakover to coincide with the new angle of growth then a wedge forms.


Can't really comment more specifically without seeing some current pics to see exactly what you are seeing.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support

 




Re: email addie for Deb in NC

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Sorry, Randy, I wasn't the one who called. You did very kindly send me a sample months ago when Cory wasn't eating. Hope you can figure out who called.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: Lysodren/ vetoryl for horses?

Ellen
 

Hi Susan,

     I gave vetoryl to my  trakehner mare, whom I lost 6 years ago at the age of 23 to gas colic.. At that time vetoryl (also known as trilostane)was very expensive and I had to import it from England as it was not an approved drug for horses. I think she was on it for over a year.

Dr. Catherine McGowan and Dr. Dianne McFarlane were investigating the efficacy of vetoryl on PPID horses. If I remember correctly I was able to Google their articles, which were published in veterinary journals.  I contacted both Dr.McGowan and Dr. McFarlane who both graciously guided me concerning the dosage of the drug. I may have spoken with Dr.Davis, who was at Cornell at the time, and may still be. From my non-scientific understanding vetroyl works differently from pergolide-one may inhibit the production while the other may inhibit the absorption of cortisol.My local vet was unfamiliar with the drug as it was experimental at the time, and was willing to write the prescription for me. My mare was unable to tolerate pergolide and I was ignorant of this group. I wish I knew then what I know now.

I currently own an IR pony and am adhering as best I can to the protocall promoted by the ecir group.. If she develops cushings, at least I know I have this wonderful resource to help me avoid the pitfalls I made with by beloved trakehner mare.

 

Ellen

Long Island,

March 2013
>
>
> Susan, Chicago, 2003, Pony 26 yrs old
>


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

mellow_miller@...
 

Hi All,

I finally received the IR results and I updated the case history file. the link is below.  I still haven't received the x-rays yet. I will not be using this vet in the future.
Just an update - my horse is still sore.  I had the vet/chiro out (years of experience) to have a look and she said there is definitely some laminae inflamation - the RF is dished. She suggested more frequent trims until the hoof grows out and boots to make her comfortable if necessary.
Had the trimmer out today, brought back all 4 toes 1/2". She also removed some outer wall which she said she only does when the horse is sore and/or there is a tear of wall off coffin bone (don't know what that means, will ask her.)
Put epic with 1/2 pads on Amelia and she trotted off. Still seems a little sore on hard surfaces but no head bobbing, just shorter strides.

As stated before, she is now on Remission. My vet/chiro told me the tri-state area is very low on magnesium and Remission is needed.

I hope I am doing the right things - I am very torn. 

As soon as I get the x-rays I will post them. In the meantime - her IR results are here:

As usual - any insight or help is greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Melodie Miller
Chesapeake City, MD.


Re: Laminar Wedge

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Lavinia -
I have another question. Just in the past few weeks I have noticed a "laminar wedge" growing out on my mare's front feet. I do her trimming and I didn't notice it a month ago. It's a little less than 1/8"wide. She grew out a much wider one ( 1/2")about a year after she foundered in 2011.
Initially I thought that she must have had a laminar separation last year and it was now growing out - however, I am now wondering if this is from when she was having an attack of laminitis this spring. She was shifting her weight on her front feet - I iced her feet and put her on Bute for a few days - she was better, then not so good - back on Bute for a few more days and then was O.K. - but I'm wondering if she foundered some - I did not have x-rays done. (She was not sore last spring or summer and I was taking care of her myself, so I would have noticed.)
How soon does the wedge show up? Could it be from this spring? Also - she has been rampaging about because where she is now, as all the other horses go out to pasture and she has to stay behind. Could she have had some separation from pounding her hooves into the ground - so soon after she had laminitis?
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014


Lysodren/ vetoryl for horses?

Susan Zingle
 

My vet is nothing if not inquisitive.  He's talked to a small animal vet and is coming over tomorrow with "a new idea for a different drug."  Had a dog with Cushings years ago, and remember the lysodren protocol clearly.  Suspect that is what is coming.  Is anyone aware of using any of the dog Cushings drugs on horses?  Thanks for any insight.  Will post whatever it is he wants to try.

Susan, Chicago, 2003, Pony 26 yrs old


Re: Round Bale Feeding for questionable IR horse

karen ansteensen <kansteen5545@...>
 


Thank you Lavinia -
    I was wondering about the dynamics of more than one gelding with my mare - I think I will rule this barn out.  That's the kind of input I was looking for.  It's hard to find a barn around here that doesn't feed round bales.  That and there's just too much grass around.  We came from Arizona a couple of years ago - lots easier to take care of my horse there.
    Should I get another ACTH in Aug to see how much it rises?
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014


Re: Round Bale Feeding for questionable IR horse

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 



Hi Karen,


Per the blood work in your case history, your girl's insulin was 18.42 in June. When plugged into the IR calculator this comes up as compensated IR. There is no question she is IR, just the degree to which she is affected. Look here for the formula:


http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html


Her ACTH was 35.9 in June, which is above the normal range at a time when she should have had a value somewhere in the mid-twenties or lower. This makes her PPID positive although it looks like it might be in its beginning stages. She should be on pergolide.


My concerns with the barn with the round bale are that round bales can be dangerous for horses to consume as there is more of a chance for botulism. In her case the unrestricted eating could also be an issue. Having managed several barns in the past, I would also be concerned about turning one mare out with several geldings as this can be an unsafe situation for all concerned. One gelding with multiple mares is an entirely different dynamic.


The other barn with the pony for company may be safer. Maybe you could have all the hay fed in small mesh hay nets hung around the turnout so the pony couldn't hog all the hay?


Would you be able to get the hay analyzed in either situation so you'd know whether it is safe to feed unsoaked or not?


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




Re: Round Bale Feeding for questionable IR horse

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Re: Round Bale Feeding for questionable IR horse

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,


Per the blood work in your case history, your girl's insulin was 18.42 in June. When plugged into the IR calculator this comes up as compensated IR. There is no question she is IR, just the degree to which she is affected. Look here for the formula:




Her ACTH was 35.9 in June, which is above the normal range at a time when she should have had a value somewhere in the mid-twenties or lower. This makes her PPID positive although it looks like it might be in its beginning stages. She should be on pergolide.


My concerns with the barn with the round bale are that round bales can be dangerous for horses to consume as there is more of a chance for botulism. In her case the unrestricted eating could also be an issue. Having managed several barns in the past, I would also be concerned about turning one mare out with several geldings as this can be an unsafe situation for all concerned. One gelding with multiple mares is an entirely different dynamic.


Laminitis related issue?

sincere121@...
 

Hello,


I have a 7 year old registered Paint gelding who last August, after I couldn't ride due to a back injury, had an episode of acute laminitis.  He was overweight (about a 7) and had some signs of IR.  Vet recommended reduced food intake, tested glucose for IR (negative result), and removal from all grazing.  We had been experiencing drought and no doubt grasses were stressed.


He was on Bute for 10 days before walking sound without it.  X-rays at that time showed no rotation.  After 30 days, we started limited riding and exercise.  Due to winter and having no indoor to ride in, he was kept in small dry lot and lost weight.  This spring he was a much healthier 4-5 on the body condition scale.  We started training (lower level dressage) in May and he has been consistently ridden since then.  My farrier reports that he has "long-toe, low heel" syndrome and is therefore more prone to laminitic issues.  He has been working to keep the toe shortened and his hooves have been looking much improved.


In May when he was at the trainer's barn, he was let out all night with  grazing muzzle and experienced no problems.  He was ridden hard six days a week.  When he returned home, I worked him up to about 3 hours of grazing time, 1 hr with muzzle in the pasture, 2 hours without muzzle in the not exactly dry but very short weedy dry lot.  He was doing fine being ridden 3-4 times a week.


After his short trim last Tuesday, he was a bit tender footed on hard ground.  I contacted the farrier and he suggested putting iodine on soles and giving him a couple days off, which I did.  Tried riding on Friday and he was not obviously lame, but was reluctant to move forward and did not want to canter at all - much more than his usual tendency towards the lazier side.  Gave him Saturday off.  Went out Sunday morning and he was grade 3 lame in front.  He was very stiff, walking on eggshells, did not want to turn sharp, and seemed to want to land toe first especially on one of the fronts (his one white hoof).  Mild pulses not elevated (I can always feel a pulse, it was not bounding), hooves did not feel hot, no other obvious signs on the hooves.


Called the vet and farrier.  Vet said try some Bute and see how he does next couple of days.  Farrier said he could come out next day and take a look.  Gave 2g Bute Sunday afternoon.  Within 2 hours he was moving a lot better.  Farrier came out Monday afternoon (I did not give any additional Bute as I wanted to see how he was without it).  Buddy was basically unreactive to hoof testers on soles, slightly reactive on left front in both heels only.  No reaction in toes or to tapping walls of hoof.  Trotted without apparent lameness on hard ground.  Seemed 90% of his usual self to me.


Farrier said most logical conclusion is the short trim, but he didn't trim him any shorter than usual.  He thought possible abscess as Buddy was dead lame off and on this winter for a month, hoof testers negative everywhere - and eventually blew an abscess from the heel which alleviated the problem.  He has dealt with a lot of laminitic horses and he didn't think this was another bout, but of course he can't be 100% sure.  He wasn't sure what exactly was going on and suggested giving him a week off, severely limiting or eliminating pasture as a precaution, and seeing how he did from there.  He noted that I took Buddy off all pasture Sunday when he was super sore and Monday he was much better.  Might be a relation.  I ride on grass in our yard and the ground has been very hard lately.  Perhaps this is a combination of hard ground, short trim?


My questions:


1)  Could this be a bout of laminitis brought on by short trim, hard ground, combo of both?  Based on the strange onset and quick reduction of pain after the trim - what makes the most sense?  If it was the trim, wouldn't he be most sore right afterwards getting gradually better from there?  


2)  Would it be wise to get some x-rays taken?  He had x-rays last August after the first episode (neg for rotation).


3)  Should I completely eliminate pasture for now and try slow reintroduction in the future assuming he continues to improve?  The farrier said sometimes you have to do trial and error to see what the horse's triggers are.  He gets 2 cups of Safe Choice original morning and night, 2 flakes mixed hay morning and night, Remission, msm, and vit E/selenium. 


4)  How would you suggest we proceed from here?  


I have had Buddy for two years now and he was progressing beautifully in training and first level dressage.  My primary goal is for him to be happy, comfortable, and sound.  I would greatly appreciate your expert advice on how to best care for his specific situation which does not seem to fit the typical course of events.


Thank you,

Kelly and Buddy

p.s.  when i tried to enter our "case history" (which I am not sure you want since he is not IR or Cushing's), it says I am not a member??


Re: Round Bale Feeding for questionable IR horse

kansteen5545@...
 

Hello -
I'm looking into moving my mare to a new barn. She has foundered twice - bloodwork does not really show IR or Cushings but she has always been an easy keeper - has a crest that has never really disappeared even though now on a regulated diet and I would say a "5" on body score.
There are 2 barns I am considering.
One has a large, mostly grass-free pasture, where my mare would be out with 3 other horses - older geldings. They are on round bales during the day and stalled at night. My question here is: Do you think that this is safe for a questionable IR horse. Last winter I was caring for her myself and was feeding 4- square bale flakes in the AM, 2 at noon and 4 at night - with this, and just enough hay pellets to put minerals in, I was able to keep her in good weight through the winter. Which makes me wonder if she would then be O.K. on a round bale during the day if she was stalled at night.
The other barn has a post-foundered pony that my mare could be in with and would be fed flakes of hay - my concern there would be that the pony would scarf up my mare's hay and she would loose weight - this happened to her once before.
Which sounds better - or does neither sound good. The person at the second barn could possible fence off a smaller place for my mare, but then she would not have much room to move around.
Neither place has shelter when out but at the second barn the horses are in during the day in summer and out at night - the opposite during the winter. The first barn is very big the second barn is smaller - as far as numbers of horses.
The link to my file is: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory 8/files/Karen%20and%20Bay%20Lady/
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Karen
Scarborough, ME
May 2014

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