Date   

Re: Laminar Wedge

PapBallou@...
 




I can certainly do that - however, the trimmer I had when my mare was growing out the 1/2" wedge only backed up the toe to the edge of the wedge - said it would be more protection because if the wedge was cut into, it would make the wedge disintegrate,since it was softer material.

Karen -

Just for a moment consider the fact that the information your trimmer shared with you is not correct.  If anything, wedge material must go, and what can't be readily trimmed through must be kept open to air.  

Why?  It is the perfect set up for anaerobic bacteria to set up house keeping.  And since the wedge is comb-like in structure, with 'gaps' between the teeth of the comb that go right back to the lamina, the bacteria can invade the even darker, warmer, airless environment of the inner hoof capsule and then to the coffin bone.  This bone infection is called osteomyelitis, and it simply does not respond to antibiotics.  My little rehab that I took in has a similar problem where you can see on x-ray a direct channel to the CB.  I"m just keeping him going until he can't.

Depending on the environment, the wedge may or may not be soft.  It can often be as hard as, if not harder than hoof horn.

I'm looking forward to the photos you say you will post.  In all sincerity, it sounds as if there are form issues that may be of consequence, and we want to help, but can't just by reading words.  It's like me asking you if you like my new hair style - it's shorter than it used to be...should it be shorter?

Can't answer without at least a current photo of my hair.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004



Re: Laminitis related issue?

Maggie
 

>>I have a 7 year old registered Paint gelding who last August, after I couldn't ride due to a back injury, had an episode of acute laminitis......
 
Hi Kelly,
 
Welcome to the group!  I will let the hoof experts answer your trimming questions, but I'll explain our philosophy and see if we can't get you into the EC History 8 group so that you can post Buddy's case history.  Filling out the CH really helps give us the details we need to answer your questions better.  Here's a link:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  You need to join that group to post your CH, but it shouldn't take long to get approved.  Then follow the instructions to fill out your CH.  On any given day, the new Neo form of yahoo can make this a challenge, so let us know if you have any trouble and we'll see how we can help you out.
 
Our philosophy is called DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  If all four aspects are properly in place, you should see excellent results!  So let's start with Diagnosis.
 
Diagnosis:  At the age of 7, it's unlikely, though not unheard of that Buddy could have Cushing's (PPID).  He is more likely just IR, though a horse can have both IR and PPID, or either one alone.  Unfortunately, just a glucose test is not definitive for IR.  You need insulin, glucose and leptin levels.  Since Cornell is the only place in the US that does leptin levels, suggest you have your lab work sent there.  Here's a link to our website that gives the details you and your vet need to do the proper lab work.  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis  In the meantime, I would definitely treat him as though he is IR.  And since IR is treated with Diet, that brings us to the Diet part of our philosophy.
 
Diet:  The diet that we recommend is a balanced low sugar starch (under 10% sugar plus starch) low fat (4% or under) diet.  So that's grass hay (tested to be under 10% sugar+starch) with minerals added to balance the hay to the analysis, and to replace the fragile ingredients lost in the hay curing process we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  If you haven't had your hay tested yet we recommend starting the emergency diet.  Details can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet   A very important part of the IR diet is what you don't feed!  No grazing, no apples, carrots or other sugary treats, no high sugar/starch hay.  White salt blocks, not brown or red ones.  Is this the "Safe Choice" that you are feeding Buddy?  http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/horses/safe-choice/safechoice-maintenance-horse-feed/index.jsp  If so, it has a whopping 20% starch!  I would stop that right away!  Agree with your farrier that there are triggers, but it's best to play it safe and just remove all the triggers, since we know what they are, as described. Trial and error is like playing Russian roulette--better to know you're removing all the triggers that can make him laminitic.  You can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a carrier for his supplements.  It's a nice, safe, low glycemic, high fiber food, but also an acquired taste/texture that some horses have trouble taking to.  There are other safe options available, such as Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's).  They are tested low sugar/starch and balanced.  You can wet them down a bit so the supplements stick to them.  Most horses take to them very well.
 
Once you get your hay tested, one of the balancing folks can help you to balance the excesses and deficiencies. Also would just like to mention that Remission is an expensive form of magnesium and also contains chromium, which we only recommend for chromium deficient areas.  If you're not in the southwestern part of the US (assuming that you are in the US), you do not need to supplement chromium.  There are also some other ingredients in Remission that we don't recommend for IR horses--Vitamin C, Niacin, rice bran.  Also, MSM can interfere with copper and selenium absorption, so would stop that as well.  You should be able to get a bag of feed grade magnesium oxide from your local feed store, or for now (until you get your hay test back), you can just use human grade tablets from any Walmart or pharmacy.  Give the amount described in the emergency diet.  Do you have any small mesh hay nets?  They are great for slowing down the voracious appetite of IR horses, and great for soaking hay.  Lots of local feed and tack stores are carrying them now.  Just as important as not overfeeding Buddy is not underfeeding him.  He should be getting 1.5 to 2% of his BW in total feed per day.  You can buy a fish scale at Walmart for ~$10 and weigh Buddy's hay in the smhn's with that and then soak it for an hour in cold water or half an hour in hot water.  This will remove up to ~30% of the sugar content.   
 
Trim:  Leaving your trim questions to the hoof experts, but a proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely surrounds and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Yes, xrays are always helpful.  And pictures of Buddy's feet as well.  Here's a site that shows how to take good hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html  You can post the pictures and current xrays to the PHOTO section of the ECH8 group and let us know when they are up.
 
Exercise:  The best IR buster there is, but a laminitic horse should never be forced to move!  Agree with Kristin on the Soft Ride boots, but if you already have other boots, they may work as well.  You can use some anti-fatigue matting from Lowe's or Home Depot to make some pads, or a garden kneeling pad.  We don't recommend Bute or other NSAID's after the first few days of laminitis as it interferes with the healing process.  Also don't recommend that you ride or work Buddy while on NSAID's as they can mask the pain that is self protective.  Let him move around as he will.  Use the boots and pads to protect his feet. 
 
Kelly, we know this is all a lot to wrap your head around, once you get used to this new way of horse keeping, it just becomes a way of life.  There's lots of great information in our files and old posts, and also on our website, http://ecirhorse.org/  Thanks for signing your name, and Buddy's.  Also ask that all members add their date of joining, and general location to their signature, and once you get your CH done, a link to that as well.  Thanks!  Keep asking questions, we are just a click away!
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


 


Re: Laminar Wedge

Nancy C
 

I have dealt with lamina wedges off and on in my gelding for some 13 years now. 

Most of what people fear does not take place.  If protection is needed, boots provides that.

Really need pictures.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <kansteen5545@...> wrote :

Hi Lavinia -
I can certainly do that - however, the trimmer I had when my mare was growing out the 1/2" wedge only backed up the toe to the edge of the wedge - said it would be more protection because if the wedge was cut into,

>


Re: Laminar Wedge

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Lavinia -
I can certainly do that - however, the trimmer I had when my mare was growing out the 1/2" wedge only backed up the toe to the edge of the wedge - said it would be more protection because if the wedge was cut into, it would make the wedge disintegrate,since it was softer material.
I know I need to get those pictures taken!
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014



---- "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Hi Karen,


If there is wedge you need to back the toes thru the wedge in order to get the wall realigned with the coffin bone. Just allowing the toes to be too far in front of where they need to be will cause a wedge from mechanical forces acting over time.



Re: clarification on salt for the summer

palomino.1982@...
 

Beverly~

Often the confusion comes when using measurements ( tsp, TBS,etc) vs. actual elemental/ weight of a product.

Nancy's post broke it down perfectly:

450# needs 6gm SODIUM( using salt with 39% sodium ) which when using a gram scale=15.3gm of salt ~ this is gram weight.

If sweating for an hour+, then will need an additional 4.48gm of SODIUM, which =11.2 gram weight of 39% salt.

Purchase a gram scale!  They cost less than $20 and then you will be able to weigh 15.3 gm of salt, and then use an implement to measure out the correct dose.

I have 4 different brands of measuring spoons...each one holds a different amount of product.

Gram scale= no question about how much you are giving.

Susan
EC Primary Response
SoCal 2007


-


Re: clarification on salt for the summer

Nancy C
 

Summary:

Four grams of SODIUM.

That is bare minimum and not good enough

You want SIX grams of Sodium for maintenance.

That means almost 15 grams of SALT.

For one hour of sweating: add ADDITIONAL 11 grams of SALT.

This chart will help you. It has teaspoon references.

Go to

3 CORE DIET, ANALYSIS, NUTRITIONAL NEEDS tinyurl.com/ycz3wmo

Look for

Salt and Iodine

To find and save your Case History link go to the FILES section of  ECH8 and search on your name or Ginger's name.  Please use the link when posting questions.  We don't do attachments.  And it wouldn't help even if we did.

Up to you but, gram scales are inexpensive and using one can help you see what is going on.

Yahoo! Groups

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Can you summarize (and use teaspoons)? I don't
have a gram scale...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 


Re: Laminar Wedge

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,


If there is wedge you need to back the toes thru the wedge in order to get the wall realigned with the coffin bone. Just allowing the toes to be too far in front of where they need to be will cause a wedge from mechanical forces acting over time.


Really encourage you to post pics of the current situation so we can see what is actually going on and can advise you appropriately. As they say "a picture is worth a thousand words".


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




Re: clarification on salt for the summer

beverly meyer
 

Thanks Nancy,
We're in Texas so it's humid.
So back to teaspoons. You calculate her minimum (at 450 pounds) as 4
grams salt which is 2/3 of a teaspoon/day. Maybe that's a fall and
winter dose?
(One teaspoon salt is 5 1/2 grams....)
But then you indicate if she does sweat she goes to 28 grams of salt per
hour which is another 5 teaspoons/hour?
I must be reading wrong. Can you summarize (and use teaspoons)? I don't
have a gram scale...
I hope I'm not the only one needing help with this!!
Thank you ALL so much.
Beverly 5/14
Ginger EC8
History document is attached to this email - I couldn't find it in yahoo
so don't know how to link it.

--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: Laminitis related issue?

Kristin Gerlach <kristin@...>
 

HI Kelly-

I will let the more experienced folks here answer your questions in detail regarding figuring out the cause and how to approach it but i did want to share with you a product that my vet had recommended to me the last time my gelding was sore footed from a bout of laminitis. SoftRide boots! They have this thick gel insert pad and they made my horse instantly comfortable! SO worth the money to give my horse relief from pain and give him the opportunity to be comfortable while I addressed all the issues which caused the laminitis in the first place. Highly recommend! You can pay to have them shipped overnight.
I hope your horse gets on the road to recovery real soon.

Kristin CO 2013


THE PERGOLIDE DOSAGE DATABASE

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

http://tinyurl.com/m6syzt4


Thanks to the 2013 Neo Yahoo changes , the Database sections of the Yahoo groups no longer function properly.   To keep the database going it has been temporarily saved in PDF format and posted in a drop box location.  Due to this format change members  now must send emails to edit or add information.  If you need to edit your information or want to add a new horse to the database, just  fill out the short form from our files section and email it LeeAnne at ECIR.Archives <at> gmail <dot> com.  If you are  having file access issues just send LeeAnne an email to get an email copy of the form. 

 

Please update or add your equine to the database!  It won’t take long, and especially with the new columns, there will be big benefits to all horses with PPID and their owners down the road.   Already we have stats showing dosages on 250+ horses, information on occurrences of laminitis, life expectancy and more. With new horses and more updated data, the stats will be better than ever, answering some of the big questions regarding the use of pergolide.

 

"The only "correct" dose of pergolide is the one that controls his ACTH."
- Dr. Kellon, ECIR Message #132610, Sep 2, 2009.

 

Thank you for your cooperation and taking the time to “give back”.


Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cush



Re: Laminar Wedge

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Lavinia -
No the wall angle just below the Coronary Band is not steeper - so I am thinking that this has been a more recent development. I have backed her toes up to almost the wedge as the trimmer did the year after she foundered.
The local feed store can send hay out to be analyzed so I can see if it needs to be soaked. And I'll talk to my vet about Pergolide.
Thanks for all your help!
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014

---- "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Hi Karen,


Any of the scenarios you mention could potentially cause laminar separation. If the wall angle directly below the coronary band is steeper than the older wall below it, there has been a change in the relationship between the coffin bone and the hoof wall. If the trim doesn't take this into account by backing the breakover to coincide with the new angle of growth then a wedge forms.



Re: Lysodren/ vetoryl for horses?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Susan,


PPID in horses is different than Cushings in dogs. Different parts of the pituitary are involved so different drugs are used.


Lysodren isn't used in horses as its function is to destroy layers of the adrenals to lower the amount of cortisol being produced while Pergolide is used to replace the action of the lost dopaminergic neurons.Trilostane can be used but not much research available in horses and cost, if similar to that for dogs, would likely be prohibitive.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





Re: Laminar Wedge

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,


Any of the scenarios you mention could potentially cause laminar separation. If the wall angle directly below the coronary band is steeper than the older wall below it, there has been a change in the relationship between the coffin bone and the hoof wall. If the trim doesn't take this into account by backing the breakover to coincide with the new angle of growth then a wedge forms.


Can't really comment more specifically without seeing some current pics to see exactly what you are seeing.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support

 




Re: email addie for Deb in NC

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Sorry, Randy, I wasn't the one who called. You did very kindly send me a sample months ago when Cory wasn't eating. Hope you can figure out who called.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: Lysodren/ vetoryl for horses?

Ellen
 

Hi Susan,

     I gave vetoryl to my  trakehner mare, whom I lost 6 years ago at the age of 23 to gas colic.. At that time vetoryl (also known as trilostane)was very expensive and I had to import it from England as it was not an approved drug for horses. I think she was on it for over a year.

Dr. Catherine McGowan and Dr. Dianne McFarlane were investigating the efficacy of vetoryl on PPID horses. If I remember correctly I was able to Google their articles, which were published in veterinary journals.  I contacted both Dr.McGowan and Dr. McFarlane who both graciously guided me concerning the dosage of the drug. I may have spoken with Dr.Davis, who was at Cornell at the time, and may still be. From my non-scientific understanding vetroyl works differently from pergolide-one may inhibit the production while the other may inhibit the absorption of cortisol.My local vet was unfamiliar with the drug as it was experimental at the time, and was willing to write the prescription for me. My mare was unable to tolerate pergolide and I was ignorant of this group. I wish I knew then what I know now.

I currently own an IR pony and am adhering as best I can to the protocall promoted by the ecir group.. If she develops cushings, at least I know I have this wonderful resource to help me avoid the pitfalls I made with by beloved trakehner mare.

 

Ellen

Long Island,

March 2013
>
>
> Susan, Chicago, 2003, Pony 26 yrs old
>


Re: Is this low grade laminitis?

mellow_miller@...
 

Hi All,

I finally received the IR results and I updated the case history file. the link is below.  I still haven't received the x-rays yet. I will not be using this vet in the future.
Just an update - my horse is still sore.  I had the vet/chiro out (years of experience) to have a look and she said there is definitely some laminae inflamation - the RF is dished. She suggested more frequent trims until the hoof grows out and boots to make her comfortable if necessary.
Had the trimmer out today, brought back all 4 toes 1/2". She also removed some outer wall which she said she only does when the horse is sore and/or there is a tear of wall off coffin bone (don't know what that means, will ask her.)
Put epic with 1/2 pads on Amelia and she trotted off. Still seems a little sore on hard surfaces but no head bobbing, just shorter strides.

As stated before, she is now on Remission. My vet/chiro told me the tri-state area is very low on magnesium and Remission is needed.

I hope I am doing the right things - I am very torn. 

As soon as I get the x-rays I will post them. In the meantime - her IR results are here:

As usual - any insight or help is greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Melodie Miller
Chesapeake City, MD.


Re: Laminar Wedge

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Lavinia -
I have another question. Just in the past few weeks I have noticed a "laminar wedge" growing out on my mare's front feet. I do her trimming and I didn't notice it a month ago. It's a little less than 1/8"wide. She grew out a much wider one ( 1/2")about a year after she foundered in 2011.
Initially I thought that she must have had a laminar separation last year and it was now growing out - however, I am now wondering if this is from when she was having an attack of laminitis this spring. She was shifting her weight on her front feet - I iced her feet and put her on Bute for a few days - she was better, then not so good - back on Bute for a few more days and then was O.K. - but I'm wondering if she foundered some - I did not have x-rays done. (She was not sore last spring or summer and I was taking care of her myself, so I would have noticed.)
How soon does the wedge show up? Could it be from this spring? Also - she has been rampaging about because where she is now, as all the other horses go out to pasture and she has to stay behind. Could she have had some separation from pounding her hooves into the ground - so soon after she had laminitis?
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014


Lysodren/ vetoryl for horses?

Susan Zingle
 

My vet is nothing if not inquisitive.  He's talked to a small animal vet and is coming over tomorrow with "a new idea for a different drug."  Had a dog with Cushings years ago, and remember the lysodren protocol clearly.  Suspect that is what is coming.  Is anyone aware of using any of the dog Cushings drugs on horses?  Thanks for any insight.  Will post whatever it is he wants to try.

Susan, Chicago, 2003, Pony 26 yrs old


Re: Round Bale Feeding for questionable IR horse

karen ansteensen <kansteen5545@...>
 


Thank you Lavinia -
    I was wondering about the dynamics of more than one gelding with my mare - I think I will rule this barn out.  That's the kind of input I was looking for.  It's hard to find a barn around here that doesn't feed round bales.  That and there's just too much grass around.  We came from Arizona a couple of years ago - lots easier to take care of my horse there.
    Should I get another ACTH in Aug to see how much it rises?
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014


Re: Round Bale Feeding for questionable IR horse

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 



Hi Karen,


Per the blood work in your case history, your girl's insulin was 18.42 in June. When plugged into the IR calculator this comes up as compensated IR. There is no question she is IR, just the degree to which she is affected. Look here for the formula:


http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html


Her ACTH was 35.9 in June, which is above the normal range at a time when she should have had a value somewhere in the mid-twenties or lower. This makes her PPID positive although it looks like it might be in its beginning stages. She should be on pergolide.


My concerns with the barn with the round bale are that round bales can be dangerous for horses to consume as there is more of a chance for botulism. In her case the unrestricted eating could also be an issue. Having managed several barns in the past, I would also be concerned about turning one mare out with several geldings as this can be an unsafe situation for all concerned. One gelding with multiple mares is an entirely different dynamic.


The other barn with the pony for company may be safer. Maybe you could have all the hay fed in small mesh hay nets hung around the turnout so the pony couldn't hog all the hay?


Would you be able to get the hay analyzed in either situation so you'd know whether it is safe to feed unsoaked or not?


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



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