Date   

Re: Stormy - need advice on perg. dose, please

Bonnie
 

Hi Teri,
You seem to be doing very well at monitoring signs. The test results have conformed your observations. Yes, a vet who is willing to prescribe higher dose as needed is a treasure.
LeeAnne helped me out greatly when I panicked over the thought of Lad's new 24 mg prescription. She also taught me an easy method of gradually moving the dose upward. She sent me some empty capsules. I would take a pergolide capsule, puncture the end carefully with a darning needle, and gently, carefully squeeze some of the powder into an opened empty capsule. In this way I was able to make up 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 dose capsules to add to the 12 mg capsules I already had. By the time I got Lad up to two full 12 mg capsules, the new 24 mg capsules had arrived. This was easier for me than dissolving the powder in water and syringing it in.

Perhaps you are wondering, as I am, whether to retest ACTH in September or October. I would like to hear from the experts on this question.

Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08


Re: Stabile 1 or 1 plus for weight gain in cushing horse?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It depends on her size and what else she is eating but the upper limit for chronic toxicity is about 20 ppm.Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: ACTH results

EquusSavvy@...
 

Her Vet will call me tomorrow. McK is doing ok... She walks without limping or overt touchiness barefoot with every 4 wk trims. The heat is depleting every ounce of energy in her. Yesterday on the way back from her two hour pasture time. She actually got a touch wobbly. Cold showered her immediately. Stalls and fans through this 100 degree weather stretch. I tried to up load the Cornell report... May I send it to one of your emails? 
Maureen and McKenna
May 12 2014 Austin TX


Re: What is too much Selenium in Hay?

larkstabatha
 

Hi...

The hay testing results from EquiAnalytical show Selenium as PPM, so my question is .. what is too high a level as expressed in these terms (parts per million) if I feed my mare 15 lbs of hay per day.

Thanks very much,

Sally in N. AZ

April 2013


Re: Stormy - need advice on perg. dose, please

Teri
 

LeeAnn, Tina, Nancy and Bonnie,
First of all thank you all for your thoughtful replies...they were appreciated very much.   It's taken me a while to post a reply.  I've been trying to wrap my mind around this...kinda like when I first found this group.  Plus I wanted to see how Stormy was reacting to her higher doses first.   And, I knew this would be long... sorry! 
Nancy...You asked if I got a 30 days supply of compounded caps and if I store them in the door of the frig.   Yes, I do.    I was surprised and pleased when my vet asked me the same thing!   He IS listening!  YAY! He also asked what is the highest dose on the list.  I plan to send him a copy of the data base.   He said he couldn't believe it when Stormy hit 8 mgs...much less 20!  (But like you said, Lee Ann..he has the lab results to prove that she needs it) When I asked him to come do the ACTH, I told him I was sure by her symptoms that her ACTH was too high.   When he got the results (52,9 Cornell) he said "You were right!"  He couldn't believe it was that high on 20mgs perg. 
LeeAnn and Tina...It was so good to hear from both of you.  Knowing that you've been through the same thing really helps.   I kept hearing Dr. Kellon's advice running through my head...that the correct dose is whatever controls the ACTH...but when Stormy hit 20mgs I started to get scared!    Plus, she's a tiny pony!  (I did review the data base...and LeeAnn...your CH on Dawn is a work of art!  Kudos!!!  I didn't get around to reading Rio's)
Bonnie...sounds like you and Lad are headed for the top of the list, too!   
So here's where we're at.  As of today, I've increased her to 27mgs.   I've been increasing by 1mg about every other day.  I increase...better...next day ..not....and repeat.   After reading your post about increasing Dawn by 3 or even 5 mgs at a time, LeeAnn...I started thinking.  (Dangerous! ha!)   My math skills are horrible so this was very painful for me.  :-)   And the more knowledgeable people out there...please correct me if this thinking or my math is wrong.    If your horse is on 1mg perg.  (which a lot of horses are on at the beginning) and you increase by 1 mg (also common) you are essentially DOUBLING their dose.  So we divide the dose by 1/4 and increase .25 mgs every 3 days.    So...for those at high doses....say 20mgs...if you increased by 1/4 the total amount...that would be 5 mgs.  Right?    Stormy has gotten to the point that inc. by 1 mg, barely makes a difference in her symptoms.    So tonight I bumped it up by 3 mgs.   Gulp! :-)     I still feel like I am chasing the ACTH by adding 1mg at a time...and will never get ahead of the rise unless I bump the dose up more.  I felt the same way last fall when we went from 6.5 mgs in July to 14 mgs in Nov.   I followed my gut feeling as I increased her dose and her ACTH was 17.3 in Nov...her best ever!   (At that point the 1mg  did make a noticeable difference.)    Gosh, I just realized... that means I DID double her dose last fall!    Sure hope I don't need to do that this year!  YIKES! 
I too am very thankful to have a vet who listens to me and to the advice of this group.   He has gone along with the increase in dose with very little fuss...I think because Stormy's lab results prove that she needs it.
I guess I will just keep listening to what Stormy tells me she needs, like I've done before, and then test again if I'm uncertain?   I think I am pretty in tune with her at this point.    Am I on the right track?
Thanks again!
Teri and Stormy
IN 2012
I just tried to add the link to Stormy's CH and Yahoo tells me ECHistory5 is closed to NEW case histories, but her's is NOT new.    ?????   Probably good ole neo again!    I just remembered...I didn't delete her old CH when I updated it...could that be it?  

 


Re: Shawnee Labs

 

Hi Melanie,
Sorry to hear you're going through this. Your hay in 2013 had high iron and this year iron was excessive. Iron overload could have a role in this. Have you considered testing him for iron overload? I'm going to make some adjustments to his current diet and will send those to you via email.
Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director, ECIR, Inc.
Missouri, USA
December 2005


Re: G:I

Nancy Piper
 

I am starting to think I am missing a page of the blood test my veterinarian sent me. She had an ACTH Endogenous Level, showing she was in range.

I will post it to the ECH8 as soon as I figure it all out. I will also call my vet tomorrow to see if I'm missing a page.

Thanks,

Nancy and Jetta

July 2014

Missouri





What kind of tests were run? Usually, the terms glucose and insulin are written out in full. Insulin doesn't get tested on the standard CBC and Chem Profile but glucose is included.





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Re: G:I

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Nancy,

What kind of tests were run? Usually, the terms glucose and insulin are written out in full. Insulin doesn't get tested on the standard CBC and Chem Profile but glucose is included.

Do you have a copy of the actual test results? If so, you can post the entire thing in the files section of ECHistory8 and we can take a look for you.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and PeanutJan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: New Kellon Blog

Susie Faver <favers4@...>
 

Thank you for this!

Wishing you happiness, wellness and success always,

Susie

"Half way measures get half way results."
Dr. Eleanor Kellon

On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:41 PM, "threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

Just wanted to give you all heads up that Dr Kellon has a new blog site:What Really Causes Seasonal Laminitis?

 

Nancy C in NHECIR Moderator 2003Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.www.ECIRhorse.orgCheck out the FACTS on Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroupSupport the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Grouphttp://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


New Kellon Blog

Nancy C
 

Just wanted to give you all heads up that Dr Kellon has a new blog site:What Really Causes Seasonal Laminitis?

 

Nancy C in NHECIR Moderator 2003Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.www.ECIRhorse.orgCheck out the FACTS on Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroupSupport the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Grouphttp://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


Re: Iron in Premium Magnesium Oxide (Mg 60%)?

 

Hi, Eva, I haven't tested it, but I've been using it for half a year to a year. It is a fine,  pure white powder. IMO testing would be a waste of time.
Understanding just enough chemistry to be dangerous, magnesium oxide, MgO, has the molar mass of  40.3. The molar mass of Mg is 24.3 (See that fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia, the the atomic weight). The molar mass of oxygen is 15.9999. (Ibid.) To calculate the percentage Mg, divide  24.3 by 40.3 = .603 or 60.3%.  The remaining material is oxygen: 15.9999/40.3= 0.397 or 39.7%
 
There's no room in that formula for contaminants. My guess is that it's pharmaceutical grade. In reality, there are probably some contaminants in minute quantities, as nothing in life is pure.
Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif
Oct 12
---In EquineCushings@..., <gentpony@...> wrote :

HorseTech offers a Premium Magnesium Oxide (Mg 60%).  Has anyone analyzed a sample for its iron level?


G:I

Nancy Piper
 

I don’t know the abbreviations for the Glucose and Insulin – that is I can’t pick them out of my horse’s blood test so I can do the G:I calculator.  Please help me.  The blood tests were done at Cornell.

 

Nancy and Jetta

07/14

Missouri


Re: Shawnee Labs

taxwizardsmel@...
 

He has been off pasture for 2 months now. I actually did insulin on 7/24 and it was 118.89. I did not feel confident that his blood was stored properly so I had a retest done with a different vet. Both used Cornell.

She did it on 8/11 and it came back at 125. Last May 2013 his insulin was 120.96. The vet had put him on metformin in June 2013 and by August it was 39-40.(do not know if that is what helped him however he was still suffering from laminitis when it was that low)

The ACTH was run on August 11th at 36. Could iron levels be contributing to this?

Melanie and Shawnee

Oregon Aug 2013


Re: Laminitis related issue?

sincere121@...
 

Vet is coming out tomorrow at 4pm to do rads and blood testing (glucose, insulin, leptin, and ACTH).  I have read and re-read the info on how to prepare him for the test.  Just want to clarify so I don't screw this up.He is normally fed soaked hay in mesh feed net in morning and at night.  Since they are supposed to be eating up to the test time (4pm) what would be the best way to do that without potentially causing more troubles?  I will be at work, but have kids at home that could give him some soaked hay in the middle of the day.  (He is a fast eater despite the small mesh hay bag).  Any suggestions on when and how much hay he should be given in prep for the blood draw around 4pm?Thanks!Kelly & Buddy April 2014Illinoishttps://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1539713942https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kelly%20%26%20Buddy/

 


Re: Shawnee Labs

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melanie,

Yes, his insulin should be much lower. What is the date of these labs and how soon after pulling him from pasture were they?

Yes, the pasture would likely have been pushing the insulin higher but how much higher than what it already was is an unknown. That is also a high glucose, just barely within normal range. Per the IR calculator, he is severely IR and at high risk for laminitis. See the calculator here:

http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html

That ACTH is also just outside of normal range so depending on when it was run there is either a seasonal influence starting, a PPID influence or both.

The leptin says he's not IR at baseline so that is a good thing. Means diet and/or PPID are the driving forces in the IR.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Shawnee and Carrera

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Meanie,

I made a new folder for Carrera's pictures in ECHistory8 Photos and moved her pics there. Here are the link to both of their current photo albums:

Shawnee:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums/505715176

Carrera:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/201778896

Their trims are both generally headed in the right direction and much better than what we generally see. However, there are some issues that need to be addressed going forward. Both Shawnee and Carrera have long toes, underrun heels and thin soles. The frogs appear to be recessed quite far below the level of the heels/bars/sole plane - is this correct? Except for the removal of dead flaps and exfoliating tissue, the frogs need to be left at least level with the heels in order for them to be able to function as shock absorbers and circulatory pumps. Aggressively removing them is hindering the feet from being able to function effectively.

Shawnee's xrays confirm that he has long toes (horizontally), thin soles and a bony column that is sitting lower in the hoof capsule than it should be. Although it appears as if there is too much overall height to the hoof capsule, there really isn't. The vet has done mark-ups and measurements to point out the sinking, wedges and lack of sole depth in the front half of the feet. The RF has a slightly broken back hoof axis, most likely due to the sinking as the heel height is pretty good. The alignment of the bony column on the LF is good but the sole appears a bit thinner under the leading edge of the coffin bone.

LF Xray: The top purple line is the location of the coronary band, the lower purple line is the extensor process of the coffin bone. These two lines should be very close together, if not perfectly aligned. The distance between them shows the amount sinking of the bony column (or rising of the hoof capsule in relation to the coffin bone). The green lines are an idea of where the hoof capsule should be in relation to the coffin bone. It highlights that the sole in the front of the foot is thinner than it should be. The blue line is where the toe needs to be backed to. Simplest way to do this is to place the foot on the hoof stand and rasp perpendicular to the angle of the dorsal wall. The red line is the area on the bottom of the foot where NO length should be removed as this area is already too thin.

LF Sole: The red chevron marks the approximate location of the true tip of the frog. The rest is stretched forward, dead material that is rolling along with the pull from the longer toe. The red lines at 10 and 2 o'clock are the areas where no height should be removed. This is to protect the thin sole covering the leading edge of the coffin bone. The yellow is where to back the toe to.

RF Sole: The pink is where the heel buttresses should be, aligned with the widest part of the frog. The orange is where they are currently located. The lateral heel appears to be slightly more run forward than the medial and is likely a tad higher as well. This is causing the hoof capsule to twist slightly inward. The purple hashes are flared wall area that needs to be lowered and beveled in. Shaving the heels slightly at frequent intervals is the way to back them in this case as there is no extra sole depth to work with so any major removal is going to drop the coffin bone to ground parallel or even negative plane.

Carrera's hoof capsules show a change in the angle of growth just below the coronary band and the growth rings are wider at the heels than at the toes. This suggests possible rotation/sinking may have occurred. If the budget allows, xrays would be a good idea to assess exactly where the bony column is in relation to the hoof capsule. Her heels are underrun and the ground surface of the hoof appears to be smaller than at the coronary band.

LF Pictures: The green line follows the angle of the new growth and highlights the wedge that has formed. The yellow is where to back the toe to in order to align the breakover with the new wall location. I added the second mark-up with the "erased" portion of the toe to give you an idea of what the goal is. Don't rasp away the excess wedge material along the upper portion of the dorsal wall as this provides needed support and stability to the hoof capsule. It will grow out on it's own as long as the toe is backed and beveled far enough to keep the breakover correct.

LF Sole: The pink is where the heel buttresses should be, even with the widest part of the  frog. The orange is where they currently are. The lateral heel is run further forward than the medial and is likely to be a tad taller as well. They need to be gradually brought back into alignment with each other and with the widest part of the frog so that her base of support is again located squarely beneath her bony column where it belongs. Regularly rasping the heels to lower/back them should be the goal but never drop them below the level of live sole plane. Red are the areas to avoid dropping the wall height as the flat soles say they are thin so you want to protect the leading edge of the coffin bone and encourage the sole to thicken. Blue is where to back the toe to.

The RF has similar issues and fixes.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Iron in Premium Magnesium Oxide (Mg 60%)?

gentpony
 

HorseTech offers a Premium Magnesium Oxide (Mg 60%).  Has anyone analyzed a sample for its iron level?

Eva

SW Ontario,  Mar 2005


Re: Shawnee and Carrera Hoof Pics

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melanie,

Yes, those would be the tests to request. you can put a case history for Carrera into the same file as Shawnee's but you may need to move all of it to ECHistory8 as ECH7 is full. I'll send you an invite to ECHistory8.

I made a new folder for Carrera's pics and put them in the ECHistory8 Photos section. I also posted the mark-ups for both horses into their respective folders. Yahoo has eaten the post I made explaining the mark-ups so I need to repost that - sorry.

Here are the links to their folders:

Shawnee:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums

Carrera:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/201778896

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: What is too much Selenium

PapBallou@...
 

Sally -
In what context do you mean?  The entire diet?  What's in a hay or a commercial product?
For a standard size horse, the recommended daily supplementation is 2mg in the entire diet.
Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Shawnee Labs

taxwizardsmel@...
 

Shawnee has been on a dry lot for 2 months now. His diet is  balanced. Hay ESC and starch is 7.6%. He is not getting any bute. He is extremely comfortable moving in his softrides but is not comfortable without them.

I had labs done at Cornell. 

glucose   112
insulin     125
ACTH       36
Leptin is 2.89
Should his insulin be lower? Or could have it been higher when I first took him off of pasture?
I am having him tested for iron too. I am waiting for those test results still.
Melanie and Shawnee
Aug 2013 Oregon

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