Date   

Pergolide Dosing

CHRIS HULKA
 

Hello,

I tried to post last night but something did not work.  I was not able to copy the case history link either for some reason https://xa.yimg.com/df/echistory8/Equine+History+Frankie+17+YO+Mustang.doc?


Anyway, I wanted to start out by thanking all the primary responders out there for all their dedicated and sincere service in helping those like myself who are struggling to do the best we can for our horses but don't have the knowledge or understanding to know how to proceed with our horses conditions. In my case PPID & IR.  My primary responder here in San Diego has been absolutely awesome.  So much information, advice and direction was passed on to assist me down this stressful road of getting my horse back on track after being diagnosed last month.  I would have been lost without my primary responder.  I can't thank this group enough.


Frankie was tested on 7/11/14 and his results from Cornell came back at 174 ACTH.  He was started on prascend and then switched over to compounded pergolide at the 1mg dose.  I tested him again on 8/19/14 and his ACTH came back at 73.8.  I'm looking for some direction on what his next does should be to get the 73.8 down to within the normal range of around 15 or 20 pg/ml.


Thank you

Chris 

San Marcos, CA

July 2014

 


Re: New member in PA

Kathy Shank
 

Back again...1) How do I test my hay?  As in, how do I collect samples, where do I take it, and what do I ask for?  Sorry if this is already explained somewhere but I surfed around and could not find it.
2) How long can an abscess be "dormant"? My horse abscessed on the RF, which started all this.  First it blew out the back of his heel, then a couple weeks later blew out the coronary band.  When it got sore a third time the vet took x-rays.  The x-rays showed presence of abscess in the LF also.  To my knowledge that one never blew out, but now some 6 weeks later he was very lame in that foot until the farrier was able to open it up to drain.  Could it be the same abscess we saw in the x-ray?  Or would it be a new development?

Up until the LF became painful, he was doing great! He's now on dry lot only (eliminated the 1 hr. grass per day until the muzzle I ordered comes in), I removed the mineral block from his stall, took him off oral glucosamine, cut the Thyrol-L back from 2 scoops to 1 scoop per day until I can wean him further, and trimmed him but did not put shoes on.

Oh yes, a couple housekeeping questions:
3) How do I discontinue emails to my non-Yahoo email address.  The digests go to my Yahoo account, but I'm still getting flooded and when I tried to unsubscribe it said I could not do that because I was not registered with that email?
4) Can I post short video clips to my history file?  I was amazed at how great he was and took a 1 minute video clip.  I wish I had done this when he was so lame he would barely come out of his stall.  There is such a contrast. 

Kathy and Dancer (IR) in PA
August 2014


Re: hoof pics

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,


Would you be able to go into the file and label the pics so we know for sure which foot is which? Here's the link to them:



https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1235401778




Took a quick look - overall, they're pretty darn good looking so kudos to the person doing the trimming. I see a few tweaks that might be beneficial but need to take a closer look and would like to know which foot I'm looking at first.




Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Katie update, hoof question

Judy Slayton
 

Thanks Deb. Hang in there with Cory. Keep reading and learning and trying. It's a long haul sometimes but worth it and good for personal growth too. I've learned and thrown out things, forced to confront some demons. Good luck and thanks again. I'm very happy to have my girl feeling better.
Judy&katie

Sent from my iPad


On Aug 21, 2014, at 3:56 AM, "Deb Funderburk hawkhilldeb@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

 Cory is at the "will he make 
it" stage and I am so happy for you a

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: hoof pics

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Lavinia -
I was wondering if someone could take a look at my hoof photos and the picture of my horse that were recently put into my folder - any suggestions would be welcome.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Karen%20and%20Bay%20Lady/
----





Re: MUFFY. - ATTN.: NANCY COLLINS

Nancy C
 

As always, thank you LeeAnne for your help on this.What is the link to the CASE HISTORY please?

From the beginning almost 15 years ago, this group has  counseled owners to get off the bute asap because of the very thing you have experienced.  A quick review of the archived messages by searching on NSAIDS will reveal just how often this has been brought up.

To go back to the previous posts, resveratrol is not advised.  It makes no sense to me with resveratrol raising cortisol in a horse with uncontrolled PPID.

Please read this page on PPID
Physiology of PPID

 



Which says in part:  Cortisol production is elevated in PPID horses largely due to ACTH and can induce a degree of insulin resistance.


Pergolide is the gold standard for controlling PPID.  Getting it under control is critical IMO, based on what you are saying about her laminitis situation.  It sounds like she is being hit from two assaults. 

You will get far more help for this horse by raising your pergolide dose.  You can contact the pharmacy and ask them to share what their testing has shown.   At least one member has done side-by-side testing and found their compounded retained efficacy.  The FlLES have a copy of the testing done by UC Davis that shows 98% efficacy after 30 days for tablets or powder from a reliable pharmacy.

She needs to have her trim right on the money as well. 
Please, for the sake of this mare, take control of the situation.  It needs to be done now.  You are her advocate. She is relying on you.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <mjwd444@...> wrote :

Hello Nancy!
     I now have a case history up, entirely due to the generosity and skill of LeeAnn (Pitchfork Princess).  Bless her heart!








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Re: Katie update, hoof question

PapBallou@...
 

Hi Judy -
Linda if you could look at my hoof pics, I would appreciate it. We have made so much progress but still a bit to go. I tried to label the pics I took yesterday but dont trust Neo.

ECHistory4

----------I agree, neo is just plain not user friendly.  And I found some of the recent pix mixed in at the end.

Regardless, you are not kidding when you say you've made progress!  Great progress!  If I recall, you had a hoof care person who kept telling you no, no, no, you can't do that.  Well, you did, and those feet are an amazing transformation!

It's possible the heels are a bit high, on the LF, just a bit, but that can be deceiving when there is some descent.  You can see the last of the long toe 'bump' growing out, and I think the toe that is on the ground is where it should be.  It does appear in the photo that some of the toe callus may be getting removed with the rasp.  Might be the angle of the photo, or in fact a little bit of callus that was 'too proud'.

Keep up the good work!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004







Re: Hay...Girl! www.haygirl.ca precioushaygirl@gmail.com

 

If this subject isn't confusing enough, I've managed to add to the confusion by not adequately proofreading. That should teach me to caffeinate properly before responding in the morning!
The correct definition for the term NSC is fructan, simple sugar and starch; citing Longland and Byrd (2006)1

"The sum of the simple sugars and fructans comprise the water-soluble carbohydrate (WSC) fraction of the plant. By contrast, starch is the storage carbohydrate of temperate grass seed and the seed and vegetative tissues of legumes. The sum of the simple sugars, fructan, and starch comprises the nonstructural carbohydrate (NSC)2 fraction of the plant."
  1. 1. Longland AC, Byrd BM. Pasture nonstructural carbohydrates and equine laminitis. Journal of Nutrition. 2006;136:20995-21025.
  1. 2. 
 
NSC contains carbohydrate fractions that DO induce an insulin response (simple sugars, starch) and DO NOT (fructan). By including the fructan fraction when establishing a threshold of 10% as "safe" there is a greater than 90% chance that you cannot find a "safe" hay without giving up significant nutrient quality. Bottom line: Measure what matters when it comes to IR - ESC+starch.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director, ECIR, Inc
Missouri, USA
Dec 2005
 


Re: New to group

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

"In order to properly test for you need to have serum iron, TIBC and Ferritin done"


Sorry, that should read "in order to properly test for iron load you need to have serum iron, TIBC and Ferritin done"


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




 


Re: New to group

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Gina,

Laminitis is an inflammation of the soft tissues connecting the coffin bone to the hoof capsule so it can't be "seen" on xrays but effects from it can be. Things like bony column rotation, thin soles, laminar wedges, sinking can all be effects from laminitis. Laminitis can flare up and recede, which can cause lameness that comes and goes. How lame a horse would be will depend on may things: how stoic the horse is, how severe the pain is, how well the trim is conforming to/supporting the internal structures of the foot. Chronic, low grade laminitis can present as a general unwillingness to move which can be misdiagnosed as the horse being lazy. Generally, there will be evidence in the hoof capsule that there are ongoing issues: very visible growth rings; a difference in the width of the rings in the front of the hoof capsule vs those in the back; laminar wedge formation; thin soles; heels that grow more quickly than the toes.



If a horse has chronically sore feet it may become sore in it's entire body as it compensates by trying to shift its weight onto the feet that don't hurt as much and by moving differently. Over time, every body part can become sore as it tries to do jobs in ways that it isn't designed to function.



In order to properly test for you need to have serum iron, TIBC and Ferritin done. Your vet will need to draw a blood sample and send it to Kansas State University as this is the only lab that can run the equine ferritin. There is no other way to diagnose this correctly in ANY species. You can have a read here for more info:



https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Iron%2C%20Iron%20Testing%2C%20Iron%20Overload/




Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





 


Re: New Member from Colorado RE-POST!!

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Suzanne,

I took a quick look at the hay analyses for this year. Overall, my choice would be the West Field hay as it has ESC + Starch of 4.3 +1.9 = 6.2. Protein is 8.5, iron is higher than needed but certainly workable, calcium is also high. The other two hays have much higher protein, even higher calcium and iron. The ADF/NDF of the West Field sample is higher than the other two so probably it's a bit more mature hay.


We don't recommend only feeding 2 "meals" per day. The recommendation would be to take the total amount of hay for the day and split it into 3-4 feedings so that he never goes more than 6 hours without food. Using the small mesh hay nets is good - some horses need to have those doubled or even tripled to slow them down enough (I have one of those). With the new hays being lower in s/s than last year's hay you may be able to allow him to free feed without gaining excess weight. Another idea would be to soak the hay to lower the s/s further so it would be less calorie dense and he could eat more for gut fill time.


I agree that the stress of not eating is something you need to avoid so for the week until the test I would stick with the free feeding routine and work on the weight reduction/total amount eaten reduction after the blood work is pulled. Fasting and stress will negatively affect your blood work results so you want to avoid that.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




Re: MUFFY. - ATTN.: NANCY COLLINS

martha williams
 

Hello Nancy!
     I now have a case history up, entirely due to the generosity and skill of LeeAnn (Pitchfork Princess).  Bless her heart!
     You will see that there were 2 fairly recent sets of tests.

     But another one was done this AM & the ACTH is way out of control.
They want me to get the pergolide tested (got it from PHP), which I
will do ASAP.  If you have a good suggestion of a testing facility,
please let me know.  Meanwhile I will ask the pharmacist here
for a referral......
     This AM:
   ACTH  32.3  pmol/L. ----range. 2-10
    Insulin.  15.6. uU/ml.  ----range. 5-36
    Glucose.  98. mg/dl. ----range 60- 110
    Cortisol.   6.0. ug/dl ------range. 1.9-9.2

     Muffpuff has begun to improve in terms of her comfort but still has digital pulse in 4 feet. She has been under STRESS. -  Maybe
because of the ACTH. -  Or maybe elevated ACTH is because of stress....... She has been running 102.3 at night with rapid heart
and resp  rate.
      Dr. said clip her, and afterward, temp, heart rate, and resp
rate returned to normal within 6 hours!!!!

     They want to give resveratrol, even though it causes rise in
cortisol.   Also want me to give additional 4 mg. pergolide,
pending results of potency test.
      Does resveratrol have effect on ACTH?   I thought it was for
insulin/glucose.  Or maybe it's for something else?  This I.M
Dr. is very smart......?

     I want, for the sake of everyone out there, to post a vigorous
warning about excessive use of bute.  This is not an innocuous
drug.  Even though I told them that Muff does not do well
with bute,  and even though I repeatedly asked that it be discontinued, it was given by one of the Drs. here (not the I.M.)
for months, at 2 gm. per day.  Result:  probable gastric ulcer (not
scoped because of need to fast),  and a very serious inflammation/thickening/ulceration of dorsal colon.    I.M. Dr.
said it is improving (misoprostol, gastrogard, and Equi-Shure for treatment)
but takes 8 weeks to resolve.  The additional issue is that,
because of the colon  inflammation,  there has been toxic leakage
into her bloodstream (bacteremia).    This has driven exacerbation
of laminitis. -  for the first time in all 4 feet. 
   Also I have been told that Previcox/Equioxx/firocoxib may be
less damaging than bute,  but that it is far from innocuous.
   Best to use any NSAIDS very sparingly.....
     Dubrow Williams. NY. '08

      

      

 

Hi Martha What does ACTH "seems controlled" mean?  When was her last test? What dose was/is she on? As has been stated before, we need a case history so we can review your situation when you come to the list with questions.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...
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Re: New to group

genae kindscher
 

Does the laminitis always show up in xray or can farrier see it??? Neither my vet or farrier suspected laminitis. She just seems to hurt in her whole body. What is a very interesting coincidence is that I recently had food sensitivity testing and blood work. I am high in iron and sugar sensitive just like my horse!  We have no evidence to think its our water either so just one of those weird things. 
I will look for your invite to the other group and see about getting her tested asap. Thanks. 


Re: New Member from Colorado

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

By actual calculation of calories, what you are feeding him now would support a weight of 800 lbs if he has a marked tendency to gain weight; otherwise even less.  I'd try adding some well soaked beet pulp.  A quarter pounds of beet pulp will soak up to a weight of at least 1 pound and is very filling/satisfying.  Give that twice a day for a total of 1/2 lb dry weight of beet pulp - or feed it all at one feeding.Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Re: New to group

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Gina,

I'll send you an invite to ECHistory8 - that should make it easy to join. Yahoo can quite maddeningly finicky at times : (


Testing during seasonal rise is fine - you just take the time of year into account when interpreting the results. It affects the ACTH but not the insulin/glucose/Leptin.


If she is having bouts of laminitis, stopping the laminitis pain is a much greater benefit to her than having grazing time. If you have enough hay stocked up to last the winter then by all means, YES, test it. It will tell you what she is getting in excess/what is deficient and will allow you to get a custom supplement made to address those issues. That's the most cost-effective, nutritionally sound way to feed any animal.


I know we throw a lot of info at you in the beginning but it does get easier with time. Just digest it like you would eat an elephant - one bite at a time.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



 



Re: New Member from Colorado RE-POST!!

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <suzannemansolilli@...> wrote :

Uhg! I just spent about an hour on an addendum to this post and it DISAPPEARED when I inadvertently swept my cursor over a link I included.  BEWARE you all don't make the same mistake!!!
Anyway, thanks to all of you who taught me how to search the files for the info I needed to convince my veterinarian to do Monty's IR bloodwork NON-fasting, we now have an appointment for next Tuesday.  However...as I mentioned in the previous post below, 2 weeks ago I changed Monty's hay from an 8.9% s/s that he had been free-feeding through a small-hole hay net for the last year, to a 1.9% s/s.  Also, at the same time, because of Monty's excess weight (body score 7) and per suggestion from my vet and this group, I am feeding 2 meals/24 hr at the rate of 1.5% of current body weight.  

But my concern is the marked change in his attitude toward his food. When he free fed on the old hay, he ate approximately 18 lbs/24 hr (2% of current body weight), eating for 15-20 minute periods and napping in-between.  Now, during the last 2 weeks on the limited feeding schedule, he'll eat his portion from a hay net, but he doesn't stop from the time it's given to him until it's gone (7am - 12pm with a forced 1-hr break somewhere in the middle when I clean his boots and re-wrap his abcess.  Then he eats manure and searches the dry lot for anything on the ground that resembles hay, taking a few breaks for napping, for the next 7 hrs until it's time for the evening meal.  So he eats over a pound an hour on the "meal" schedule, whereas he ate much slower free-fed. 

I know how important it is for him to reduce his weight, but I'm concerned that this new eating style directly contradicts the intentions of all the literature I gathered for my veterinarian concerning the advantages of the non-fasting test.  My test is scheduled for 1 week from today, and I just switched him back to the free-feeding to calm him down. What should I do?? Is this OK or should I go back to the meals?  

I posted the analysis for both the old and new hays here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SuzanneM/ 

 

The old hay is the "Terry Porter ..." and the new is "Delta Hay Company's North End Middle" sample. Maybe from this you could tell me if he'll get as fat on the new stuff as he did on the old, or maybe it just depends on how much he eats of the new stuff.

At the same time, could you advise on which hay out of the 3 analyses from the Delta Hay Company I should purchase for the upcoming year?  I purchased a bit from the North End Middle cut as an emergency measure to get him off the stuff that disagreed with him so this last year.  Then I'll need help with mineral balancing.

I thank you for your support, or otherwise I'd be crazy by now.



---In EquineCushings@..., <suzannemansolilli@...> wrote :

I must mention that just this past week I changed Monty's hay from one that was 8.9% combined ESC + starch (which is what he'd been eating since last summer)  to a new hay that is 1.9% ESC + starch and 14.2 NSC.  I'm hoping it's OK to change his diet before the bloodwork???  I felt it was necessary to get him off the old hay ASAP, as I felt it was tipping him over the edge in regards to his foot soreness and rotation and the barn I'm at won't soak hay.  
 

SuzanneM and Monty

Western Colorado -- July, 2014

Case History:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SuzanneM/

Photos:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

 

---In EquineCushings@..., <gentpony@...> wrote :

Hi SuzanneM

 

 

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/160091

  

(sorry link not working for me right now):

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20%26%20Cushings%20Disease/

 

 

You already see physical signs of crestiness and patchy fat.  We use the IR test results (remember to get leptin, too) to monitor how effective the current diet is for controlling insulin resistance and to what degree, so the fact that Monty is eating prior to the blood draw is important.   If also PPID, that can complicate things, since PPID can also lead to insulin resistance, even if the ACTH is within the lab normals.  You may need tighter mineral balancing, lower s/s, more exercise, or even higher levels of pergolide to control IR, depending on the circumstances.   You will have a clearer idea where you stand with these persistent symptoms and the degree of IR / PPID control if you test, and at the same time will get a basis for evaluating any future changes.

 

Eva

SW Ontario,  Mar 2005

 


Re: New to group

genae kindscher
 

Hi Lavina, 
Thanks for all that info, might take me awhile to check it all out. Tried to join the history group but it rejected my request everytime I tried will try again later. 

The Tumor that was checked for was Granulosa cell tumor, they did it via blood to check for inhibin and also ultrasound and palpation. Nothing was found but still suspicious blood work, so just re did it. Her niplles are rock hard and she used to love to let be scratch that area because she has been itchy there forever but not begs to have me scratch her then tries to kick me.

I read the info on the big head disease and that could sure fit too in regards to her forehead, and lameness. When she first started having problems it was thought to be reinjury of soft tissue and I was letting her graze in pasture for long periods of time. It has crab grass which I now find out is high in sugar and probably oxalate too. She has been in there every day because it was really, really short and I figured she was not getting much, but now she will not go back in. This is the most devasting thing to her and to me, no grazing time!

She did just recently have blood work which I will enter into history when it allows me to join, blood levels of cal mag were normal, but mineral test showed low. 

She is already on most the things on ED except of course the no grazing which is now stopped. Since I suspected PSSM they follow a similiar diet and some said some grazing was okay. She has had some fanatastic looking days but just recently came up sore again, but then yesterday was trottng out in full extension again and only a slight lameness. If she is sore I just let her walk for 15 minutes, but if she offers trot then usually she will start to losen up and look better.

So since we are in seasonal rise, would it be best to wait to get her tested??  This is all so confusing to me, just had the PSSM thing kinda figured out and now the possibility of this one is really confusing with all the different types and all. I don't know if its going to help to test my hay as we don't have any choices right now, with drought there is no grass hay out there to buy. I secured a larrge amount to get me through winter and that is all I can get. 

Gina from Central Coast California
Whizzy-No diagnosis
8/2014



Re: MUFFY. - ATTN.: NANCY COLLINS

Nancy C
 

Hi Martha What does ACTH "seems controlled" mean?  When was her last test? What dose was/is she on? As has been stated before, we need a case history so we can review your situation when you come to the list with questions.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





Re: Hay...Girl! www.haygirl.ca precioushaygirl@gmail.com

 

Welcome Pamela,
The primary aim of our group is to help educate owners of horses with PPID and/or IR. There is a lot of misinformation regarding diagnosis, what to feed, how to provide adequate hoof support, how to prevent future episodes of laminitis - the list goes on and on. One thing we insist upon is adequate scientific evidence to support any recommendations.

As I looked over your hay site a few things came to mind. First, I should let you know that we do not allow any kind of advertising. On the other hand, finding a good resource for hay can be challenging for many, so I applaud your efforts to help. That said, let's clear up some misconceptions, especially one we've been beating nearly to death in an effort to stamp out flawed information.

1. NSC is an outdated term and should not be used. NSC = WSC, simple sugars (ESC) and starch. 

2. WSC is the carbohydrate fraction made up of largely fructan and ESC. To know the approximate fructan content, subtract ESC from WSC. 

3. Fructan is not digestible. It cannot induce an insulin response. It is fermented to volatile fatty acids in the hindgut and is completely irrelevant to insulin dynamics. Therefore, if one has a perfectly good hay with 20% WSC, 5% ESC and 0.5% starch and believes that fructan has any bearing in IR, they would reject that hay, when really, the sugar and starch content of 5.5% makes it perfectly safe. I've put some charts up on our ECIR Facebook page to illustrate this.

4. We strongly recommend mineral balancing to the excesses and deficiencies in the hay. Therefore, a trace mineral analysis is also recommended when getting a hay analysis.

Finally, I'm on a personal mission to encourage growers and buyers to stop focusing on only "sugar" (ESC + starch, please!) and keep in mind the whole nutrient package - the fiber fractions that affect digestibility and palatability and nutrient quality (ADF, NDF, lignin). There is way too much emphasis on the internet and lay press to "Feed a lower-qualitylow-energy forage, such as late-maturity hay." Because the average person doesn't understand hay grading or analysis, many go out and buy the worse possible hay and wonder why their horses look so bad, won't eat it or colic on it. I'm glad to see that the sample on your website is within reasonable limits.

Again - welcome. I don't want to scare you away with all of this. I just wanted to let you know that we insist on the facts when it comes to talking about what carbohydrates are relevant to IR.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director, ECIR, Inc
Missouri, USA
Dec 2005

ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 








Re: Katie update, hoof question

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

"we did not think she would even make it and now she has a new saddle"

Hi Judy-- This is so encouraging to me. Cory is at the "will he make it" stage and I am so happy for you and Katie. Good for you and all of your hard work.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710

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