Date   

Re: Gift of pergoiled

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sharon,


Need to correct my previous answer to you regarding the Winstrol. It is not a corticosteroid. Per Dr. Kellon,


"It is a synthetic testosterone-like anabolic. It counteracts the effects of cortisol across the board, from insulin resistance to protein breakdown.

There is no formal study on using anabolics to counteract PPID, but I do know of individual cases where it was very successful.  Drawbacks are that once started it can't be stopped and if a dose is missed you might not be able to get the good result back.  They are also highly controlled substances, like narcotics, because of the abuse potential for athletes."


Sorry for any confusion, my post posted before I had finished revamping it :(


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote :.


If it is Wintrol that the vet is recommending that is a steroid and is the last thing one would want to administer to an uncontrolled PPIOD horse as it is the exact opposite of what you are trying to accomplish. A PPID horse already has too much circulating cortisol (steroid). Could cause/exacerbate laminitis.





Re: Testing blood glucose with a glucometer

sally.stork
 

 

 

 

 

Lorna: I think it was about where did you see high glucose in cushings? from earlier note.

Another reference from vet:

1.Tufts Veterinary school---equine section from Head of equine Dr. Franks--2013, Equine Endocrine Group---hyperglycemia is onlist of signs.

2.Dr. Schott Michigan State 2002---Vet clinics of north America aug 18(2) 237-70. Hyperglycemia as a sign.

Vet said its not specific to just that but to say hyperglycemia is not a possible cushings sign is incorrect, Sally,Elkton,MD2009


Re: Is APF Pro safe to use if APF is unavailable?

Sue
 

Hi Nancy,

The place that I ordered it from and have paid for it through paypal is out of APF but will send me APF Pro at no extra charge.  I have a call into Auburn Labs but there was no one there when I called.  I don't want them to send it to me if I can't use it!
I will have to wait I guess.

thanks
Sue and Busy
Kingston ON
October 2010 


Re: Testing blood glucose with a glucometer

Lorna Cane
 

>Lorna:  I found in the merck veterinary manual(can google) ---


Sally?

Was I part of a glucose/glucometer discussion?

Sorry.I'm not following you .


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.igive.com/welcome/warmwelcome.cfm?c=65676



Re: Testing blood glucose with a glucometer

sally.stork
 

Nancy:  ok, I was thinking you were talking about a cushings horse with high glucose. If its got metabolic disease AND cushings, that is another deal and I can ask her about that. Sorry for the confusion, Sally, Elkton,MD 2009


Re: Testing blood glucose with a glucometer

Nancy C
 

Hi Sally

It also says quote:

Hyperglycemia and insulin insensitivity are suggestive of pituitary adenoma in horses, but because they occur in horses with equine metabolic syndrome or other insulin dysregulation syndromes, they are not diagnostic of PPID.

Lorna here's the link.

Hirsutism Associated with Adenomas of the Pars Intermedia: The Pituitary Gland: Merck Veterinary Manual

 

My horse has high glucose even when PPID is controlled.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






 


Re: Testing blood glucose with a glucometer

sally.stork
 

 

 

 

Lorna:  I found in the merck veterinary manual(can google) ---I punched in equine cushings and got nothing, then punched in equine ppid, sent me to adenoma of pars intermediate--there it is ---"hyperglycemia." I asked my vet why in cushings?

high acth makes high cortisol and cortisol makes  high glucose.

So if high glucose then probably is NOT controlling cushings---I asked and a glucosometer might help a lot in letting know cushings is not being controlled if high glucose, Sally, Elkton,MD since 2009


 


Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Hannah T
 

Hi Mandy,
Just an update on my two boys. I have moved them to their new stables. We moved 2 days ago. There is a dry lot there, but unfortunately they both escaped on the first day and went galloping round a couple of fields.They both ate quite a bit of grass before I could catch them both a again.I am absolutely mortified and worried sick. They are both back in the stables 24 hours a day and I have been cold hosing and icing as instructed in the files. There is no evidence of them going downhill yet. Could you tell me how quickly they could go downhill if they will? I had the farrier out today as well to check their trims and do any adjustments needed and all seems fine there. Is there anything else I can do or ay signs I should look out for? If they both seem sound should I continue with the straight line walking by hand?
My vet is coming back out on the 23rd to re-test the ACTH and insulin levels.

Hannah
Ziggy and Jaffa
1/8/14

Yahoo! Groups

 


Re: Vetoryl for hoses?

Nancy C
 

Your statements don't make any sense, especially since you've been a member here for five years and seen what is possible. What Prascend study is this, Sally?  The one where 30 percent of the subjects were never controlled on ?

Forgive me... I am testy about this. My horse is controlled during seasonal rise on 12 mg of compound pergolide. He has to be or he will founder. He was not controlled on 5 mg of Prascend.

Thanks heavens for my vet.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <sally.stork@...> wrote :


 

 



Re: Vetoryl for hoses?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <sally.stork@...> wrote :


 

 

Susan: My vet told me years ago that the vet at Michigan State that did prascend study told her prascend or any type of pergolide from Aug 1st--NOv does NOT CONTROL acth seasonal surges----


==============


It's true that doubling or 5 mg might not control it, but it's *not* true that it can't be controlled.  Also true it will drop on its own anyway in time but that's not the issue here. 


For horses that do not have aggravated symptoms with the rise, it's not as much of an issue to keep it tightly controlled. For those that do, especially with laminitis flares, it's very important.  Horses with history of fall laminitis are at high risk for exacerbations. 


The correct dose is the one that controls ACTH.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001


Re: Vetoryl for hoses?

sally.stork
 


 

 

Susan: My vet told me years ago that the vet at Michigan State that did prascend study told her prascend or any type of pergolide from Aug 1st--NOv does NOT CONTROL acth seasonal surges----that doubling prascend is not going to have much effect or even 5x at 5mg. So using liquid, powder pergolide is not going to drop numbers magically in aug,sept in middle of peak surge----as surge lowers in oct.nov, acth comes down normally---you might give the liquid/powder credit for something it will not really be doing. She also said a study in US had numbers jumping over 200 points in some horses in seasonal surge----Sally, Elkton,MD since 2009


Re: Vetoryl for hoses?

Nancy C
 

Hi Susan

You probably know this but just in case.....

Those of us going higher because Prascend did not control ACTH are using compound thanks to our great vets.

Check out recent posts on compounded.  You are not alone.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <szingle@...> wrote :
My 500 +/- pound pony is not controlled on 5 mg of Prascend a day (given once in the morning in his feed).
Susan, with Pony from Chicago, 2003


Interaction with CTB

Lauren N
 

Hello again! Does anyone know if CTB interacts with any other supplements or medications? I feel like this is a good route to go but just want to make sure no interactions will occur in my horse! Thanks!


Lauren     

Arizona

Sept 2014


Re: L-lysine

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians
 

Awesome, Thank you!


Re: L-lysine

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Lysine is about 10 grams/tablespoon.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001


Re: Vetoryl for hoses?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Fourth attempt to answer this.  Message keeps disappearing!

Trilostane does not control pituitary enlargement or ACTH levels. It helps control cortisol release in response to ACTH.

Efficacy of trilostane for the treatment of equ... [Equine Vet J. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

 

The 5 mg upper limit for pergolide (UK) or 3 mg (US) is *not* based on formal toxicity studies, only on dosages that have been reported in the literature.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001





L-lysine

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians
 

Was reading an article on L-lysine stating 10 to 20 grams/day.  My feed mill sell feed grade 99% L-lysine, but the tag does not have a grams per lb.  Any idea what it would be?

Thanks,
Joyce

June 2006



Re: Vetoryl for hoses?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Susan,


See message 188335, from Lavinia:


"PPID in horses is different than Cushings in dogs. Different parts of the pituitary are involved so different drugs are used.


Lysodren isn't used in horses as its function is to destroy layers of the adrenals to lower the amount of cortisol being produced while Pergolide is used to replace the action of the lost dopaminergic neurons.Trilostane can be used but not much research available in horses and cost, if similar to that for dogs, would likely be prohibitive."




Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.igive.com/welcome/warmwelcome.cfm?c=65676

 





Vetoryl for hoses?

Susan Zingle
 

My 500 +/- pound pony is not controlled on 5 mg of Prascend a day (given once in the morning in his feed). He is fed ODTBD cubes exclusively, turned out in weedy paddock with grazing muzzle.   Trim is good, hasn't had a laminitis flare up in over a year (knock on wood).  Latest ACTH (about a month ago) 179.  In January, was 44.  Realize we are in seasonal rise, but 179 is way over the top of the Liphook seasonal graph.  Not sure the reasoning, but Prascend literature does not recommend more than 5 mg a day.  I know many on this list go much higher.  So, vet suggested we switch to Vetoryl.   Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs discusses dosage of vetoryl for horses, and it stipulates it is for pituitary-dependent cushings.  Vet is checking on price.  Has anybody had any experience with Vetoryl (trilostane)?  Google search and search of The Journal didn't give me any articles or studies.  Thanks in advance.

Susan, with Pony from Chicago, 2003


Re: Pergalide and Chaste Tree

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Audrey(?),


Prascend is pergolide, but is the patented form of the medication. Chastetree berry will not control the ACTH although it helps many horses with some of the outward symptoms of PPID like not shedding, which doesn't always resolve even when the dose of pergolide/Prascend is correct. Either form of pergolide will need to be increased over time as PPID is a progressive disease. The manufacturer of Prascend does not acknowledge this fact. Would be great to know the details of your experiences - do you have a case history for your horse?


Could you be a bit clearer on "they are not compounding it correctly"?


Would you please add your name, general geographic location and year of joining to your future posts. We also ask that you delete most of the message you're replying to so the posts do not become reams of repeat info that make it difficult sift thru. Helps things run more smoothly on a list as large as this one. Appreciate your help with this.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



92841 - 92860 of 278190