Date   

Re: Hay Choices for Monty

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Hi Linda,

I'm only concerned with choosing between "North End Middle" (1.9% w/high iron) or the "West Field" (6.2% s/s). The "Middle Field" is not a contender, I just wasn't able to separate it out from the document that came from the grower.

If I'm understanding you correctly, both the West Field and the North End Middle might be good choices, but since West is lower in iron than the North End Middle, and, as you point out, it's 30% lower in s/s than last year's, it may be a better choice considering the North End Middle analysis is unbelievably low and therefore dubious.  Also, he's only been on Prascend for a few weeks, and most likely not stabilized since his numbers were high, his dosage only 1 mg and I've seen no change in symptoms yet. The group already suggested higher dosage, which my vet was not willing to do until the 4-week mark, so we are testing again shortly.

That being said, is it possible to get help with mineral balancing for the West Field Delta Hay Co analysis?  He has been refusing his current mineral mix since the start of giving the Prascend. To get him to eat the Prascend, we give it ground up to a powder mixed in a handful of Purina WellSolve L/S. Is that OK?

Thanks,


---In EquineCushings@..., <PapBallou@...> wrote :




Here's my concern: Last year he had been on Terry Porter's hay  which was 8.9% s/s which put Monty into a tender-footed situation on and off all season.  At that time he wasn't on Prascend, which he just started since being diagnosed PPID about 3 wks ago.  


However, about 6 weeks ago, I took him off  the 8.9% s/s hay  because of soreness and bought some interim hay from Delta Hay Co-- North End Middle that is 1.9% s/s.  Monty's soreness disappeared and his attitude perked up considerably and he's been doing well on it.  He's since run out of that, so this past few days he's been on last year's leftover hay and today he's sore! Not sore in boots, but ouchy w/o, and he hasn't been sore in the past 6 weeks.



Hi Suzanne -


I would have that hay sample rerun that has a s/s of 1.9.  I'm not certain that ESC that low is even compatible with grass/plant life.  It's possible that the s/s is 'low' since the WSC is relatively low, at least for what I see in my western states area, but that ESC is suspiciously low to the point that I personally don't believe it.


It's probable that the s/s level of the Delta hay is a level he can't tolerate.  10% is a guideline, with many horses needing less than that to be comfortable.  It may also be that the PPID isn't totally controlled, so an uptick in s/s is more dramatic than with the PPID is controlled, or during spring/summer.


I have planned to buy my next year's batch this coming week, but just want to double check if the West Field is still the right stuff to buy, considering it's only 2.7% lower in s/s than last years. 


2.7% may seem to be just a little 'lower' but that's in terms of the entire plant.  In terms of s/s it's almost 30% lower.  That difference, even in theoretically 'safe' hay, may prove to be a make/break point in some horses, especially those that are in the process of getting everything sorted out.


So if he's that sensitive to s/s, is it safer to stick with North End Middle even though the iron is really high?  Or would the West Field be the better bet after all?


Middle Field has a high level of starch which is converted 100% to glucose...and it doesn't soak out since it's not a water soluble carb.  North End Middle (I am getting confused!) has a dubious analysis although it may be the better choice even without knowing the actual ESC since Monty apparently feels better on it.  


Linda

EC Primary Response

West Coast

May 2004


Re: how much Pergolide?

Nancy C
 

Hi Karin

Thanks for the Case History Link.  It really helps.

The pergolide should be dosed to control the ACTH and not by weight.  What does your vet recommend?

To avoid the pergolide veil, start him at one-quarter mg, slowly raising the amount every three days or so,  and build to your target dose. The best way to know when you have achieved the correct dose is to retest blood three weeks after you have met your target dose.  Monitor your symptoms to look for control as well.

Here are two posts on negotiating seasonal rise and monitoring symptoms

Seasonal Rise When to Test ACTH Message by Eleanor
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/132334

Increase Pergolide Message (Scale of Symptoms) by Patti
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/111988

He is also very IR.  Plug your numbers here.

http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html

You are feeding a large amount of copra (200 grams) which many have found to make IR worse.  High fat worsens IR. Recommend 2-4 ounces (50-100 grams ) of ground flax instead.

Not sure which Vit B's you are giving but Niacin and Thiamine and Riboflavin should be avoided in IR horses.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc


Re: Chaste tree berry and J-Herb together?

 

Hey Maggie,
Thank you SO much for that link, looks super for riding :)  Brilliant idea!!
Liz and Regal
December 2012
Tasmania


Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Hannah T
 

Hi Lavinia,

Ok thanks for your help. Mark ups would be great start for me! I'll get some hoof pics posted asap.
Many thanks,

Hannah, Uk
Ziggy and Jaffa
1/8/14

Yahoo! Groups

 


how much Pergolide?

k.schouwenburg@...
 

Last week my horse finally had a positive ppid test (113, 2 times before she was negative).
How much pergolide would you recommend for a 900 lbs horse?

Karin & Kaya (17, IR, joined July 2013)
The Netherlands

History:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Karin%20Schouwenburg/



Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Hannah T
 

Hi Lavinia,

The decrease in drinking started a few weeks before we moved. Only the urinating has changed since we moved. However, this morning I put him in the dry lot and the first thing he did was have a huge pee. His stable bedding was dry. It seems he is holding his pee and doing it in the drylot, which he has never done before. At least I know he IS peeing now! I am going to try giving him a bigger bed in his stable tonight to see if that encourages him a bit more. I will scrub all the buckets out with baking soda today anyway just in case. Thanks!

Hannah, Uk
Ziggy and Jaffa
1/8/14

Yahoo! Groups

 


Re: NuZu Stabul 1 @ Tractor Supply Facebook

Carol
 

I posted on the TSC Facebook page asking about Stabul 1, and the reply was that we can't find that on our products list.  I replied several stores have been ordering it and asked them to contact Randy Anderson. 


Now the post has been removed.


Is there a separate blog section I don't know about?


I also spoke to the manager at our local TSC asking him to contact Randy and he never got back to me.


Carol and Rossi in Maryland 2003



Re: Hay Choices for Monty

PapBallou@...
 




Here's my concern: Last year he had been on Terry Porter's hay  which was 8.9% s/s which put Monty into a tender-footed situation on and off all season.  At that time he wasn't on Prascend, which he just started since being diagnosed PPID about 3 wks ago.  


However, about 6 weeks ago, I took him off  the 8.9% s/s hay  because of soreness and bought some interim hay from Delta Hay Co-- North End Middle that is 1.9% s/s.  Monty's soreness disappeared and his attitude perked up considerably and he's been doing well on it.  He's since run out of that, so this past few days he's been on last year's leftover hay and today he's sore! Not sore in boots, but ouchy w/o, and he hasn't been sore in the past 6 weeks.



Hi Suzanne -


I would have that hay sample rerun that has a s/s of 1.9.  I'm not certain that ESC that low is even compatible with grass/plant life.  It's possible that the s/s is 'low' since the WSC is relatively low, at least for what I see in my western states area, but that ESC is suspiciously low to the point that I personally don't believe it.


It's probable that the s/s level of the Delta hay is a level he can't tolerate.  10% is a guideline, with many horses needing less than that to be comfortable.  It may also be that the PPID isn't totally controlled, so an uptick in s/s is more dramatic than with the PPID is controlled, or during spring/summer.


I have planned to buy my next year's batch this coming week, but just want to double check if the West Field is still the right stuff to buy, considering it's only 2.7% lower in s/s than last years. 


2.7% may seem to be just a little 'lower' but that's in terms of the entire plant.  In terms of s/s it's almost 30% lower.  That difference, even in theoretically 'safe' hay, may prove to be a make/break point in some horses, especially those that are in the process of getting everything sorted out.


So if he's that sensitive to s/s, is it safer to stick with North End Middle even though the iron is really high?  Or would the West Field be the better bet after all?


Middle Field has a high level of starch which is converted 100% to glucose...and it doesn't soak out since it's not a water soluble carb.  North End Middle (I am getting confused!) has a dubious analysis although it may be the better choice even without knowing the actual ESC since Monty apparently feels better on it.  


Linda

EC Primary Response

West Coast

May 2004


Hay Choices for Monty

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Hi Group,


I'm ready to buy new hay for the year for Monty.  One of the moderators already suggested to purchase the West Field from Delta Hay Co over North End Middle from the same place because of the lower iron and lower protein in the West Field, even though the s/s is a little higher. (analyses in Monty's case history, link below my signature)  I'm sorry I can't find that thread of emails.


Here's my concern: Last year he had been on Terry Porter's hay  which was 8.9% s/s which put Monty into a tender-footed situation on and off all season.  At that time he wasn't on Prascend, which he just started since being diagnosed PPID about 3 wks ago.  


However, about 6 weeks ago, I took him off  the 8.9% s/s hay  because of soreness and bought some interim hay from Delta Hay Co-- North End Middle that is 1.9% s/s.  Monty's soreness disappeared and his attitude perked up considerably and he's been doing well on it.  He's since run out of that, so this past few days he's been on last year's leftover hay and today he's sore! Not sore in boots, but ouchy w/o, and he hasn't been sore in the past 6 weeks.


I have planned to buy my next year's batch this coming week, but just want to double check if the West Field is still the right stuff to buy, considering it's only 2.7% lower in s/s than last years.  


Is it possible that this past weeks' change in hay could have thrown him into pain so quickly, or could it be that he was just trimmed 2 days ago? I can't feel a digital pulse. He didn't walk off sore after his trim, and yesterday I hand-walked him w/o boots in a soft pasture (NO rocks -- I was very carefully looking for them the whole walk) for 30 minutes and he was quite happy. So I don't think it's the trim. 


So if he's that sensitive to s/s, is it safer to stick with North End Middle even though the iron is really high?  Or would the West Field be the better bet after all?


Thank you!


SuzanneM and Monty

Western Colorado -- July, 2014

Case History:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SuzanneM/

Photos:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

 


New file uploaded to EquineCushings

EquineCushings@...
 

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the EquineCushings
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File : /Drugs, Pergolide, Cushings Disease Treatments/Pergolide Dosage/ECIR Pergolide Dosage Database Email Entry Form.docx
Uploaded by : tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
Description : Open for Entry Form and the LINK to the Database


You can access this file at the URL:
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Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Hannah,


I agree that I wouldn't want to use someone on my horses who is known to have a temper - you need patience to work well with horses.


Mandy has given you some good places to learn general info on trimming. If you want specific help with your two boys just post here with the questions and add some recent pictures to the photo albums and we can help you out by doing some mark-ups along with an explanation of those mark-ups. You can also post any general hoof questions on our sister site ECHoof , which Mandy has already given you the link to.


Lavinia, dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


>>>>>>>>>>

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/286128498

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1291696720


Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Hannah,


Did this change in his drinking coincide with the move to the new place? If so, there may be something in the taste of the water or the buckets that he doesn't like. You could try scrubbing all the buckets out with baking soda and rinsing well. Is the water coming from a well? If he is drinking less then you would expect to see less peeing but he needs to stay hydrated.


Yes, once the PPID is controlled you would expect to see a decrease in water consumption and therefore urinating but it sounds like there is more of a decrease then would be explained by just getting the PPID controlled with the Prascend. Good that you are keeping an eye on this.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Shawnee is getting worse

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melanie,


Sorry that Shawnee's still having difficulties. Would you please take some current pics to see how the trim is coming along since the last round of changes we discussed. It is going to be important not to remove any height from the front part of his hooves until he has developed some sole depth as the soles were very thin and there was sinking apparent on the xrays. If that sole depth has been compromised at all that could explain his continuing lameness.


Here is the link to his case history file and photo album:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums/505715176


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Melanie%20Gebers/


When you have a moment, would you please update his case history file to include the most recent blood work results so they are all in one place. This way, we can find the information we need to answer your questions fully. Thanks for your help with this.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team








Re: Shawnee is getting worse

taxwizardsmel@...
 

We have a rasp and can work on him in between trims. Thank you for your help

Shawnee and Melanie

Aug 13 Oregon


Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Hannah T
 

Hi,
Thanks Mandy. I honestly haven't changed anything. The temperatures here have been the same for about 3 weeks now, quite warm. I have noticed him drinking A LOT less since he has been on Prascend. Sometimes he doesn't even touch his water over night, but there is always some pee. The pee is slightly reduced since he has been on Prascend. But last night he drunk half his water , very unusual for him, and there was no pee at all. The day before there was very very little pee, but he had not drunk any water over night as usual. I will see what 'pee evidence' there is this eve. If it's still low to nil I will phone up the vet for a chat I think. I know there will be changes with him as he gets his Cushings under control, but no pee can't be a good thing!

Hannah, Uk
Ziggy and Jaffa
1/8/14

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Hannah/


Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Mandy Woods
 

Morning Hanna,
I’ve noticed a decrease in urine output.   I believe its from drinking less water and reduced salt.  Our temps have dropped over 20* at night so the ponies are not hydrating them selves.   It sure is nice not to have that big wet mess in two stalls!
I would report your observations to your vet.  I am not sure I would be worried yet if you have an explanation (salt) or temperature change.
Did you change anything?  or even the amount?
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Hannah T
 

Hi Mandy and rest of group (!)
Has anyone else noticed urination issues with their horses with Cushings and IR? I have noticed over the last couple of days that my horse has either been holding his pee, or peeing less/not peeing. Last night he did not pee at all but drank more than he usually does. The weather has not changed here and nor has his diet. My vet is coming on Monday to re-do bloodtests for ACTH and Insulin. Should I be concerned about this change in peeing and if so, are there any more bloodtests I could ask the vet to do on Monday (kidney/liver function?)? He has become noticeably more lethargic lately. Does anyone know any signs I should be watching out for if his kidneys/liver are having problems?
Many thanks

Hannah, Uk
Ziggy and Jaffa
1/8/14

Yahoo! Groups

 


Re: Cushings, other diseases and GMO's

Nancy C
 

Hi Kevin

Just to add to Jaini's response re:ECHorsekeeping.  We do monitor all developing info re GMO. There was  great thread, a rare balanced and not emotional conversation  a while back on ECHorsekeeping which I will link below.


EquineCushings & IR - Off Topic Issues

 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






Re: 2 crippled ponies.Please help.

Hannah T
 

Thanks Mandy, will do :)

Hannah, Uk
Ziggy and Jaffa
1/8/14

Yahoo! Groups

 


Re: Cushings, other diseases and GMO's

janieclougher@...
 

Oops - I also forgot to mention: unless this is concerning a horse who is IR or PPID, we should move the GMO discussion to the sister list, EC Horsekeeping.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHorsekeeping/info

You have to join, but it just takes a minute. The main list is kept for conversations about PPID or IR horses needing help; more general conversations such as GMO go to EC Horsekeeping.

Thanks!


Jaini (BSc, BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy and now Eddy
BC09
ECIR  mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/


 



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