Date   

Re: Laminitis Help please!

PapBallou@...
 





So many issues with this article.

Uncontrolled IR horses should not be on pasture. Period.

Fructan is not the problem. 



Am having a not so easy day, and then saw this article.  I don't have enough left in me to be as annoyed as I should be.  I am horse-drained, and then some.

But -

Not all fructans are created the same.  Inulin is the fructan that Pollitt has used to induce laminitis in studies.  Inulin is not in grass; it is in chicory root, so if your horse has a liking for Louisiana style coffee, as I do, he may be in trouble.

Levan is the predominant fructan in grass.  I daresay, you will not find one study in pubmed that used levan to induce laminitis.  This citation defines grass fructan as levan:

Nutrient Requirements of Dairy Cattle

 



Saying fructan is the problem is like saying dairy products are bad for you.  Butter, cream, whole milk and many cheeses, yes.  Low or non-fat, unless lactose intolerant, no. 

I will concede that cream combined with whole milk and sugar, and cocoa, churned until frozen may be considered medicinal.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Laminitis Help please!

Nancy C
 

Sorry June.

So many issues with this article.

Uncontrolled IR horses should not be on pasture. Period.

Fructan is not the problem. 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




Articles have been written by others, such as Getty, http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/NSCandACTHDoubleTroubleintheFall.htm that include the WSC in their guidelines.  Just posting this as a way for perhaps people to take a broader approach on this issue. 

June
Oregon
12/12


 


Re: Laminitis Help please!

Lorna Cane
 


Hi June,

>I know that it appears that everyone on this forum adheres to the ESC + starch guideline and discounts the WSC, but I still use the conservative approach of WSC + starch, trying to stay around 10% total for the hay that I purchase. 


Especially for new members, here is a previous post from Dr. Kellon,number 181945,addressing this:



It's very simple. Forget about everything except ESC and starch. These are the only two fractions that contribute directly to glucose and insulin responses. 


WSC, NFC and NSC contain other complex carbohydrates that cannot be digested to simple sugars.


Most IR horses tolerate ESC + starch up to 10% although some may be more sensitive.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001

 



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc



 



 


Re: Laminitis Help please!

 

I know that it appears that everyone on this forum adheres to the ESC + starch guideline and discounts the WSC, but I still use the conservative approach of WSC + starch, trying to stay around 10% total for the hay that I purchase.  This hay is extremely hard to find in Oregon but it can be found and the hay is nice and soft and edible...it's not trash.  Articles have been written by others, such as Getty, http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/NSCandACTHDoubleTroubleintheFall.htm that include the WSC in their guidelines.  Just posting this as a way for perhaps people to take a broader approach on this issue. 

June
Oregon
12/12


 


Re: Help Needed - Long

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Kris - Dr. Kellon might not be available, but here is a quote from one of her messages:


• < Any precautions when a horse is super thin (BCS of 2)? Beyond running a fecal I mean.! • Fecal won't tell you anything about tapes or encysted Strongyles. The gentlest way to
deworm when the horse may have a heavy burden is three doses of ivermectin, three weeks apart. An accurate weight is very important. The ivermectin will kill egg-laying adults and late stage larvae, then catch emerging larvae as they come out and mature. Recent studies have shown egg counts can rebound after as short as 4 weeks, likely from small strongyles with a short life cycle. Make one of those an ivermectin praziquantel combination for tapes.!
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/123844


The link to the folder on de-worming is here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Deworming/


After the 3 doses of Ivermectin, you should do a double dose of strongid to remove tapeworms. 


Ask your vet about a low dose of banamine to be given an hour before de-worming.


For accurate weighing if you don't have a scale, use this formula:


[Girth (in) × Girth (in) × Length (in)] / 330 = Weight (lb)[1]
Note that the girth measurement is squared (girthXgirthXlength) divided by 330

The length is the distance from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock. How to's are here:


http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Tape-to-Weigh-a-Horse

http://www.cowboyway.com/HowTo/HorseWeight.htm


Send the case history form to my email merlin5clougher at g mail dot com (remove spaces and replace the at and dot with appropriate symbols)  and I will upload it for you.  Neo is making everyone nuts.




Jaini (BSc, BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy and now Eddy
BC09
ECIR  mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/





 


 

!



---In EquineCushings@..., <danfolz@...> wrote :

Hello again,

I'm really hoping that this comes through this time! I have been having major problems posting, accessing  most of the files, and in trying to get a case history up.


Thank you for helping.

Kris & Misty

Central Ohio

Oct. 2002


Re: Help Needed - Long

valsbouquet
 

Hello again,

I'm really hoping that this comes through this time! I have been having major problems posting, accessing  most of the files, and in trying to get a case history up.

I am still in desperate need of help with my horse (Misty) please. I just tried (again) to post her history and recent lab work on EC 8 Misty Folz.doc. Yahoo! Groups and although I think? that it posted this time, it didn't go according to plan.

Upon receiving her recent lab work, I have already raised her Pergolide by .25 mg to a total of 5.5 mg being given in the AM. I would appreciate instructions from this point forward.

I also need help with deworming her. I have not dewormed her in years, as I was doing fecals and they always came back negative. She is losing a lot of weight now but I am afraid of harming her if she does experience a massive kill off. Drugs and "normal" doses of them aren't her best friends since she is known to have hypersensitivity issues. If Dr Kellon would please help with this one, I would very much appreciate it.

Thank you for helping.

Kris & Misty

Central Ohio

Oct. 2002


Re: Liphook Equine Hospital information

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I would generally agree with this, but the increased sensitivity of TRH stimulation (more positives) may be offset by the higher number of false positives.

http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Lab-Book-PPID.pdf

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Re: Need referral for good barefoot trimmer near Medford Oregon

PapBallou@...
 

Jackie!

AOLl is stopping my emails to you from hughes.net.

I'll resend to you with a hotmail address.  Check your spam folder if you don't get it in the inbox.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Link Error Fixes and How to Search Files using the Webpage

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Ooooh THANK YOU Eva!
I too just voted again! Yay.  We're now ranked 6th! 
Lets get out to the polls and vote to get this fixed.   Our volunteers have more important things to do helping horses than to try and fix the 1000s of links (even IF they could all be fixed which they can't!)  A simple re-direct should be all it takes - the same way Yahoo puts neo automatically into the address bar from all the old links that didn't contain neo.  

-LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

ECIR Files Table of Contents


Taken For Granite Art - Original Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials




Need referral for good barefoot trimmer near Medford Oregon

 

My mare foundered nine months ago and had rotation in both front hooves. She has been on a tight diet since then but is still lame, partly because I was out of commission for a few months with broken ribs and breast cancer.


Linda has been marking up photos of her feet and I have been rasping her hooves to the best of my ability since I recovered, but I would like to find a really competent trimmer who can help me get my girl sound.


Any suggestions?


Jackie Decker
Mystic Ranch
Sent from my iPad


Re: MIkado Update and looking for advice

feldermannj
 

That was my fault, I wrote dopaminantagonist, but in the text it's dopaminagonist.
Jana Germany 09/11 Yahoo! Groups

 


Liphook Equine Hospital information

 

In searching information I found this and was looking for some feed back on it's content.


http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Lab-Book-PPID.pdf

Many thanks,
Holli
The Netherlands




Re: Equi-Analytical Analysis of Nuzu Stabul 1 pellets available

Nancy C
 

Thanks for doing this Cass.  I put a copy in the FILES section in Analysis of Feeds, a folder called Nuzu.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/NuZu%20Feeds%20-%20Anderson%20feed%20Co/

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <cbernstein@...> wrote :

I received Equi-Analytical's full wet chemistry analysis of Nuzu Stabul 1, if anyone is interested. I uploaded a pdf file in my mare's case history file. 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Cass%20in%20Calif/


No surprises there. Like others, I use about 8 oz/day as a very convenient supplement carrier.


Cass for Satra & Cayuse

Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Cass%20in%20Calif/



New file uploaded to EquineCushings

EquineCushings@...
 

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the EquineCushings
group.


File : /Analyses of Various Feeds/NuZu Feeds - Anderson feed Co/NuzuStabul1-Equi-Analytical.pdf
Uploaded by : goddess03259 <threecatfarm@...>
Description : Results from ECIR member Cass 09.2014


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/NuZu%20Feeds%20-%20Anderson%20feed%20Co/NuzuStabul1-Equi-Analytical.pdf


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


goddess03259 <threecatfarm@...>


Re: MIkado Update and looking for advice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I have to agree with everything Nancy said.

Also, Jana, with regard to that link, pergolide is a dopamine AGONIST, not antagonist.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: MIkado Update and looking for advice

Nancy C
 

I'm just a horse owner reading a google translation of a German medical article but seems to me it is saying what Dr Kellon said in a message to you last June. This message was referenced to you again last week.

This message Dr Kellon wrote to you last summer says to me that thyroid is normal on pergolide but chronic disease can affect the horse.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/187435

There are reports that pergolide can blunt TSH response to TRH, but baseline TSH and thyroid hormones are normal. A new study has confirmed chronic illness depresses thyroid function: Nonthyroidal illness syndrome in ad... [J Vet Intern Med. 2014 Mar-Apr] - PubMed - NCBI http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24417524 Nonthyroidal illness syndrome in ad... [J Vet Intern Med. 2014 Mar-Apr] - PubMed - NCBI http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24417524 PubMed comprises more than 23 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books. Citations may include links to full-text content from PubMed Central and publisher web sites. View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24417524 Preview by Yahoo Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com http://www.drkellon.com EC Co-owner Feb 2001

Here's a post on PPID, cold and thyroid:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/135426

PPID horses also often have secondarily depressed thyroid function. Many do normalize when properly treated and supplemented but some may not, especially over winter when the cold temperatures are supposed to trigger higher thyroid hormone levels. Exactly why is not entirely clear but dopamine is the precursor for noradrenaline which is part of the release system for TRH in the hypothalamus. Pergolide mimics the missing dopamine on dopamine receptor sites, but it doesn't increase dopamine levels per se. These horses need supplementation with thyroid hormone.

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <feldermannj@...> wrote :

Here is one of the links to a website that mentioned the relationship between dopamine antagonists and thyroid dysfunctions.


Re: Laminitis Help please!

Mandy Woods
 

Stephanie,
What  did you feed King before the bloodpull?   
 
And we do NOT count the WSC in our 10% or less daily diet.  We count ESC + Starch. 
 
Mandy in VA
 


Re: Laminitis Help please!

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Mandy,

Thanks for your reply. I'm trying to get into the ECH8 and I can't access the group? It isn't letting me and I have tried several times!

King was tested with the blood sent to Cornell. His Insulin level is 171, with the normal range being 10-40. He wasn't fasted before hand. The vet is coming again today to check his kidney levels so I can see about getting him more pain relief as he's just miserable. Unfortunately, the vets here locally don't have much experience with these type of cases so I'm having to do the thinking and research for them. 

I switched his hay over to a lower sugar/carb hay. I was soaking the hay he was on, but it was 16% WSC so I realized that even with soaking it there was still too much sugar for him. So, I switched him to an Orchard Grass with 9% WSC. I've always had him on soaked beet pulp, which he loves, so glad he can continue with that. 

He can't lift his feet for a trim, as it hurts him too much. He is immobile, I'm bringing him water and hay. He is his stall, with deep shavings.

I'm heading out, I will check back later. Thank you for the support and help!
Stephanie
Oregon



Re: MIkado Update and looking for advice

palomino.1982@...
 

To translate from German to English, go to Google Translate , follow the prompt and the article is translated.

Susan
EC Primary Response
SoCal 2007

 


Re: MIkado Update and looking for advice

feldermannj
 

Here is one of the links to a website that mentioned the relationship between dopamine antagonists and thyroid dysfunctions. Thyreotropin – Wikipedia

 


Jana, Germany 09/11

Yahoo! Groups

 

92001 - 92020 of 277975