Date   

Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

gentpony
 

Hi Marian,

 

I would be most interested in reading the detailed protocol and all the findings of Dr Jennifer Davis you mentioned in your post:

 

“Dr. Jennifer Davis just in 2012 compared 21 additional formulations of compounded pergolide (as follow up to her 2009 study on aqueous pergolide on file) and once again, found huge inconsistency. One formulation from Wedgewood actually had NO measurable pergolide for the 180 days of study evaluation. Only 4 met the +/- 10% of stated 1mg label concentration from the compounder on Day 0 of the analysis.”

 

Since a prime purpose of this forum is for sharing data and facts about PPID, would you please provide this information to the group?  When and where was it published?

 

 

I’ve searched ivis, google, google scholar, PubMed, etc and can find no mention of this study, although the abstract for her original 2009 study is easily found on PubMed:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19210262

 

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Feb 1;234(3):385-9. doi: 10.2460/javma.234.3.385.

Effects of compounding and storage conditions on stability of pergolide mesylate.

Davis JL1, Kirk LM, Davidson GS, Papich MG.

 

For anyone interested, a more expanded version of this 2009 study can be found here, scroll down to the second last study at the end of the document:

 

http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vhc/efac/equine/documents/EMSAnnualReportandResearchOverView2009PDF.pdf

The Effects of Compounding and Storage Conditions on the Stability of Pergolide Mesylate.

-Jennifer L Davis. PAGES 30-31 IMMUNOLOGY SECTION.

 

 

Eva

SW Ontario,  March 2005


Re: APF Dosage & Ok to give with Bute?

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Hi Stephanie-- I have been giving Cory 4 ml a day for months. I call it Magic Juice since he loves it so much and it smells so good. I ran out a few days ago and he seems less perky, so I know it is helping him. Thanks for the reminder to order it today. (Cory is around 750 pounds.) I would probably give him more if it weren't so expensive, but he seems to do well on the 4 ml. I don't know about the Bute since, thankfully, Cory seems to be able to do without it now.

I am interested in the gabapentin that King is taking. Can you discuss that a little, since my vet mentioned it last visit as a possibility to help with Cory's heel pain?

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

Teri
 



Nancy...and Marian,

>>>I sure hope Teri sees your post because it appears you haven’t followed those background discussions either. 

I sure did!   (I am the one who's pony is taking 32 mgs compounded pergolide caps (16 am - 16 pm) a day.)

Just for the record ...my vet started Stormy on 1/2 mg Prascend in Dec. 2011.  (And no, we did not titrate up because he didn't know that we should) Thanks to finding this group and having a very open minded, willing to learn vet...he switched Stormy to 4 mgs compounded pergolide in Nov. 2012.   
And to repeat myself...my vet freely admits that if it weren't for the info from this group, Stormy would have been 6 ft. under a long time ago!  Unfortunately, like too many vets, he was not that well educated on Cushings or IR.  (He was also full of BI bologna!) 
My story is like so many others. I was getting bad advice from him and two other vets. Like...Safe Choice IS 'safe'!  Try Purina Sr....'not enough molasses to hurt her'.  When it didn't help her gain wt., I was told to try Enrich 32.  Sigh.... Then I pumped her full of NSAIDs to try to help the laminitis pain!  (As directed by the vets) Stormy was going downhill fast!  She spent the winter, and most of the spring, flat out on the ground.  She literally did not get back on her feet till I found this group!   I am not trying to bash vets...my vet is great....just lacked knowledge on PPID/IR. Like you Nancy,  I am extremely thankful he was open to the advice/collective knowledge of this group.

My head is spinning.
You go Nancy ...and Linda!!!!  

Teri and Stormy
Indy 4-2012





APF Dosage & Ok to give with Bute?

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi All, 


Does anyone have an APF dosage chart or any thoughts on dosages? I just ordered APF for my newly diagnosed Cushings & IR horse that is feeling really icky/loosing weight(with significant rotation). I'm still working on perfecting his Prascend dosage for what works for him. How much APF would you start him on? And, is it okay to give it with Bute? I'm weaning him off the Bute, but he's on 1gram every 30-36 hours right now. He's also on a painkiller(Gabapentin) right now until I can get everything under control as he can't do without it. 


Thanks so much.

Stephanie & King

Oct 2014

Oregon





Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

marktime@...
 

Linda, I am still trying to digest the information that has been presented and to see how it applies to my horse and how I might implement it. I am overwhelmed to get so much interest and support. :)

Thanks,

Judy
In SWMO


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

Chanda
 

Yep, another here who's vet isn't very helpful with Cushing's, but thankfully she will write script for compounded pergolide, and this group is wonderful for information (sometimes to the point of overload, but Jasper is doing well thanks to that overload).

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

Stephanie Stout
 

Judy - I just wanted to add that I'm going through a similar situation, so hang in there. I'm having heck of a time getting vets( that have very little experience with Cushings/IR) to help me out, so I have been doing most everything on my own(with the advice from this group, the websites, etc) since the vets are being quite challenging. So, hang in there and start reading :) 

Stephanie 
Member since Oct 2014
Oregon


Re: High WNV Activity-Give Shot?

fionn@...
 

I gave Fionn one back in May and he was fine.  I gave it alone, not combined with other shots and gave him a day off from work.    He’s PPID and IR and 18.  There is too much risk here in KY, so I don’t feel like I have a choice.  Every horse is different, of course, and only you can decide.


Re: Drs Little & Gockowski

Lorna Cane
 

Thank you for saying this,Judy :

>I knew Dex Suppression was not good from research I did.  But never dreamed the famous vet in our area would test that way!!!  I thought he was an expert!  I doubt he has time to learn about treating Cushings since he only has three Cushings horses in his large practice.  My regular vet knew even less, just treated one horse for it 15 years ago!!!

I wish I had a Loonie (dollar) for every one of our members (we are almost 12,000 strong now) who has expressed similar experiences/expectations here,over the past 13 years.

I hope Marian is reading.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada

















 


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

PapBallou@...
 

Judy -

Please, don't pick and choose!  Go back to Mandy's post that was written to you from an owner's perspective, and her many, many years volunteering on this list - this is not just chat info but cutting edge information on how to manage a horse with cushings.  It is what has kept my boy, 21, with 10 years of cushings on a sound and happy road.

Your comments about the two vets in your area are exactly what Dr Little needs to understand exists in OUR universe.  Not her non-clincal universe. 

I thank you for making that point for us.

Please.  Reread what Mandy has to say.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004



Re: Drs Little & Gockowski

Lorna Cane
 

Thanks for your post, Kerry. Your tone made me smile, wryly.


This caught my eye.


>I've used many compounded Rxs through the years and have a handful of 

proven pharmacies that I trust to formulate meds so I am completely 

comfortable using compounded pergolide. 


In our Files is a post from the pharmacy many of us in Canada

 use,concerning quality control.Seems to me we should be careful not to 

lump all pharmacies in the same pile wrt  efficacy,as Marian continues to do.


Here's the post, in case NEO screws up the link:

"In November,2010, Island Pharmacy ( then known as Shawnigan Lake People's Pharmacy ), B.C., sent 15 capsules from 2 lots of Pergolide Mesylate powder, to the lab for analysis, covering the powder that had been used over the last 6 months.

They also sent both new and old capsules (capsulated for 3 months)

The lab results said they were stable and compounded 1mg Pergolide Mesylate capsules with a measured 0.949mg/cap which is where the USP guidelines says it should be for compounded medication.

Please contact Kathryn Davies <shawnigangirl@...> if you would like copies of the results."


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


















Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

marktime@...
 

Elva, you are the reason I joined this list.  :)  I knew Dex Suppression was not good from research I did.  But never dreamed the famous vet in our area would test that way!!!  I thought he was an expert!  I doubt he has time to learn about treating Cushings since he only has three Cushings horses in his large practice.  My regular vet knew even less, just treated one horse for it 15 years ago!!!

I appreciate everyone's comments and advice.  I can pick and choose what seems most helpful in Rudy and my situation.  He is only 15 and I would like to continue riding him.

Judy
in SWMO


Re: Drs Little & Gockowski

Kerry Isherwood
 

Drs. Little & Gockowski--

Thanks for the levity afforded by your ivory tower espousals--it sure breaks the tedium of dealing with actual problems like laminitis, euthanasia, and heartbreak.  A good chuckle is always good for the soul...wait--what is that saying--"Laughter is the best medicine"?--but only if you're licensed to prescribe it in your state, right?

As a veterinary professional with a recently diagnosed PPID horse, I obtain Prascend *at cost* from our distributor and can afford the initial 1mg/day dose, but if my mare's dose increases I am going to buy compounded--Prascend's cost even at wholesale prices borders on ridiculous.  I've used many compounded Rxs through the years and have a handful of proven pharmacies that I trust to formulate meds so I am completely comfortable using compounded pergolide.  I bluntly told my BI rep this.  You gotta do what you gotta do, you know?  Well, maybe you don't--the view is rosy from the ivory tower high above the rest of us.

Again, thanks for the chuckle--now back to reality,

~Kerry

Kerry Isherwood, LVT-VTS(ECC)
Licensed Veterinary Technician, Vet. Tech. Specialist (Emergency & Critical Care)
Brewster, NY
Sept 2014


Re: Med dosing with quidding

Bonnie
 

I have used a pitted prune at Dr. Kellon's suggestion, Can your mare deal with that?

I place a small plastic dishpan under my pony's chin while feeding the pill. That way the pill can be seen if it drops from his mouth.

Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

Nancy C
 

Sorry Marion but I have one more comment...

If you or Dr Gockowski would be willing to share Dr Davis's 2012 pergolide study, Id be happy to put it in the files.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 

 





Help horse foundering again

ignatowski90@...
 

Hi everyone I have a 14 year old QH who foundered last year from what we suspected of being over fed grain. I had someone taking care of them for a weekend and she way over fed her. She came back from it fine no rotation. Now it is almost a year to the day and she has been on a strict no grain or grass diet with safe tested hay. Today I noticed the stance and she was unwilling to walk. Called the vet out and sure enough it is founder again. She has had no change to her diet this time it is bad the worse she has ever been. We are padding her feet and giving her bute I am trying to get my farrier out since she is due for a trim. She wants to wait to xray until after she is trimmed. I am just so upset I don't understand I was doing everything right. I am worried if this keeps happening I am go to lose her. Has anyone ever delt with this before and maybe can give me some advice. I should mention she has very little sole depth. I did have her pull blood for a lymes test since ticks are all over here and it is a big problem. He legs are swelled up as well.



Brittany and Dream WI


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

marktime@...
 

I do not have a place to dry lot Rudy.  He has never shown any foot tenderness or laminiticsymptoms.  I have tried to watch his weight, putting him in the corral overnight when grass is rank and when he is getting free choice hay in the winter.  For the past several years he has grown a four inch long winter coat that does not shed readily.  He has had a voracious appetite and gained weight.  All my saddles quit fitting till I got a Skito pad to fill in his topline.  Lately, he has lacked his usual energy.

I never dreamed that the premier equine vet in the area would give the dex suppression test!  But I left him there for it, knowing that he was not founderprone.  He got 4.4 on both blood draws.

The vet is sending me his test results plus a 60 day supply of powdered pergolide for $116.00!  I am to give a mg a day.

Judy
SW MO


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

Nancy C
 

Oh Marian.  You’ve stepped in it this time, IMO. You have very clearly demonstrated that you have rarely if ever actually followed anything that goes on here.  Who said anything about “denying professional veterinary care”?

ECIR has been telling folks from the very beginning to get their vets involved. Horse owners are desperate to get their vets involved in a positive manner for the long term health of the horse.  ECIR established ecirhorse.org for just that end because so many vets did not and still do not understand PPID and IR. 

“Endocrinology changing rapidly” may have happened in your world, but the members here have been ahead of the curve from the beginning.

ECIR recognized Dex as potentially dangerous and potentially giving false positives long ago. Fourteen years to be exact.   Way before the EEG or anyone else decided we horse owners weren’t crazy.  It was not a “perception”. Check the archives.

Just last week I had an AAEP vet (not my vet) recommend to me to give baking soda to my IR horse so I could put him back on grass.  This is also recommended by another AAEP vet who also sells supplements on the theory that acidosis from “sugar” in the hind gut causes hyperinsulinemia. Baking soda will solve this little problem.  Is that an AAEP or BI/EEG rec now?

Your post has brought a few additional follow up questions to mind...

Why does the EEG recommend that higher amounts of Prascend can be given if the owner can afford it, but if not, um.... (See recs in your links)

Why do some AAEP vets refuse to prescribe any more than 3 mg of Prascend even when the owner can afford it and it is obviously needed as clearly demonstrated by blood work and symptoms?

Why is it okay to have 30% of the horses in BI’s study not responding positively to the recommended level of Prascend?

It would be okay with you though, if the  ECIR Group works to educate owners and vets of the value of the drug in a correctly diagnosed horse,  right?  There are many who won’t prescribe pergolide at all, because they are laboring under myths and bad science about the drug.

Why do most AAEP vets not understand the benefit of titrating on to pergolide to avoid “side affects” or know there are ways to help the horse comfortably transition on?

Why do “specific EEG members located at Universities” believe horse owners are “suspect at best” when it comes to understanding and reporting what their horses are going through?

How many specific PPID/IR cases have these specific EEG members located at Universities followed long term and for how long? 

Why do so many AAEP vets think PPID is  “just old age?” and IR, or your “ID”, is just because the horse is fat?  This group has known both to be false for years.

Thank the deities there are AAEP Vets (mine for example) who are willing to work with this group.  They recognize the value of what the group has been able to do, and what the collective expertise can bring to the discussion and care of these horses. 

After years of struggling with vets who didn't care, didn't know, didn't want to know, or had bad info, I finally found a vet willing to work with me for the benefit of my horse who I am still able to work and ride.  I am so very thankful.  So many others are not so lucky.

I sure hope Teri sees your post because it appears you haven’t followed those background discussions either.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <mariangraves@...> wrote :

I'm sorry, I must disagree with this information and enter this discussion.

 

"Hi Judy,

The best thing you can do right now is send your local vets to this website.  

 

Your question ‘’can anyone recommend a vet’’ may not be needed.  We’ll coach you!" 

 





Re: High WNV Activity-Give Shot?

des788@pacbell.net
 

Here is another WNV page, maintained by USGS.
http://diseasemaps.usgs.gov/wnv_ca_veterinary.html





Their FAQ states: "the maps on our web site are based on the official data
from the CDC. We receive official updates from the CDC at 3 A.M. every
Tuesday morning (during peak-season we also receive updates every Friday
morning). We then update our 260+ web pages typically well before noon on
the same day we receive the updates. Media reports are sometimes based on
"probable" diagnoses that may later be found to be incorrect. The data we
use to make the maps have been approved for publication by the state health
departments, assembled by the CDC, and then released to us for map
publication. "





The USGS page shows no equine (veterinary) west nile cases in Orange County,
and only a total of 14 WNV cases throughout the entire state year to date.


To me, that seems like the odds of your horse getting WNV are extremely
remote. In addition, there have been no new equine cases since mid
September.





Yay! That said, I still vaccinate mine yearly in any case.





Dianne and Ranger in Palo Alto


Re: Veterinary Help With Cushings

Elva J Mico
 

Hi Judy,
I have been a member of this list since 2004 and it has helped me immensely. It is sometimes difficult to find a vet who is knowledgeable about Cushings but they are around. And if you can find one that will listen to your concerns and listen to the information you get from this list that will be wonderful. Even if your regular vet doesn't know much about Cushings - if he is willing to listen to you and the experience from this Cushings list, that would be terrific. And that would make him a great vet.

I'm sure you will have a choice between Prascend from a drug company and getting a compounded pergolide. I do want to tell you that the compounded pergolide is cheaper and for my two horses, Beau and Whiskey, works very well. The Prascend is very expensive and I personally do not believe it is necessary, however that is a personal opinion. (Altho there are probably thousands on here who also use the compounded form) I've had their Cushings under control for the past couple of years using compounded pergolide. And I use the capsules which I get from Thriving Pets.

The one thing I am against is the dex suppression test, and the moderators here will tell you it is not the best for your horse - it really is not reliable. If you can find a vet who will do the ACTH test and send it to Cornell for testing you will get accurate results.

To the list - Judy and I have known each other for many years via horse lists - Judy - there is so much experience on this list I am sure you will benefit. You know my email if I can answer any questions for you.

Hugs to all your horses,
Elva and Angel Satin
NM/2004

On 10/28/2014 9:13 AM, marktime@... [EquineCushings] wrote:
I need to find a vet who is knowledgeable about the treatment of
Equine Cushings. I live in Southwest Missouri and have just received
results of a Dex Suppression test that confirm Cushings in my
15-year-old Foxtrotter gelding. The two vets I have consulted do not
seem to know much about this condition.


Can anyone recommend a vet?


Thanks,


Judy Meadows Barry County, MO

93641 - 93660 of 279935