Date   

EMS with negative IR result? Bartonella / Lyme?

Emily Phillips
 

Hi all!

It has been awhile since I have posted on here, since my mare Cheyenne (now 9 year old Clydie x QH x TB) became acutely laminitic in all 4 feet in November 2013, following a history of long term low grade laminitis due to long overgrown feet, being very obese, and finally an inflammatory response to wormer.
She tested negative to Insulin Resistance (very low Insulin, Glucose, and Leptin) and since then I successfully transitioned her back on to grass without any problem.

Until end August.  Spring arrived early here and in 2 weeks, she went from her nice slim trim figure to a fat cow!!  I have never seen a horse put on weight SO quickly!!  I didn't take her rug off for 2 weeks as the weather was still so awful and when I did...  I got an unpleasant shock!  I immediately took her off the pasture and into the laneways I had set up.  She quickly lost the weight and now in the height of spring I have her on almost dirt laneways under trees, supplemented with tested 6% sugar hay, with her supplements etc as normal.

So my question really is...  Despite testing negative for IR, can they still have EMS?  She has some of the symptoms.  Not really the obvious fat pads although when she does put on weight she gets a little cresty and has a pocket behind the shoulder.  But she is definitely a touch me not.  Her feet are still sensitive and my trimmer tells me that while her feet look really great now, there is still signs of low grade inflammation there.  She is very prone to obesity (clearly) and the lady who bred her told me she was always like this even as youngster she would lock her up in a dirt yard.

My other question is does anyone have experience of Bartonella (or Lyme) causing these same symptoms?  My other horse after 4 years of battling to find out what is wrong with him has just tested positive for Bartonella - first horse in Australia - via Galaxy Labs in the US.  She has been grazing with him for 18+ months now, side by side.  Although her obesity issues she had long before I got her.  She is in the process of being tested now too but I just wondered if anyone knew about Bartonella?  Can it cause inflammation in the feet?  Make them prone to obesity?

As always thank you all...  Without you all to help me get her through the laminitis last time she wouldn't be alive today... and I really want to avoid her ever going through that again!

Emily and Cheyenne
Jan 2014
Victoria, Australia


Mare in late pregnancy - with laminitis - new board member

Ozhorse Emma
 

Im new here, referred here from another board.  

After some advice on how to deal with my mare.


I have a QH mare who I think might foal within the next few weeks.  


I have always struggled with her weight.  She has not been that bad in the past in that she has only had to spend good seasons locked up.  She has had about 4 episodes over the last 7 years where she got a bit tender footed and I would lock her up.  Her feet never really showed laminitis rings and I would say she has not had separation, or permanent separation anyway.

I think she is about 12 now.  I think her weight has affected her fertility.  I sent her to an outside stallion and they could not get her in foal.  She ran with a stallion at home here for about 12 months before she went in foal.  That was probably because there was a drought over last summer so her weight was not so high and a) there was not much grass and b) it was dried up grass with not much sugar in it.

The seasons change quickly here and I think I should have got  her in about 2 weeks earlier.  I saw her a bit stiff in the paddock and yarded her but she had a chunk out of her frog so I thought she might be a bit sore from that so I have not been sure she was getting laminitis.  She has been locked up for about 3 weeks now.

Today I am sure she has laminitis.  She is rocked back and tender (not dog lame, tender).

I think she will foal in the next fortnight (but it could be much later).  She is bagging up and her udder changes daily.  This is her first foal.

When not in foal in the past when she looked sore, or too fat, we would lock her in the yards and feed her hay and not a lot of it.  That worked to get her weight down and over summer she would get more exercise doing stock work. This time I believe I need to keep the volume of fibre up.

Particularly with a fat mare, I feel stuck between Pregnancy Toxaemia and Laminitis.

The Pregnancy Toxaemia can kill her quicker and is harder to treat than laminitis.

Diet: I am limited in the hay I can get.  I have rich lucerne and wheat hay (with heads but they are not developed and dont have grain in them(much)).  Both of these are terrible choices. The wheat hay was baled with the heads in it but before the heads ripened properly and it is awnless wheat.

I need to keep the fibre up to her.  I have :

Oat chaff, lucerne cubes, beet stuff (made in UK called Speedibeet), processed soy hulls called Maxisoy (supposedly good for laminitic horses).

Also I have Prydes EsiSport, which says it is for Cushings and Insulin resistant horses, which says give 2 kg a day for late pregnant mares her weight.  

Twice a day I  have been soaking about 10-15 lucerne cubes with 2 cups compressed soy hulls and building up to a saucepan of the Prydes Esisport for Insulin resistant horses, plus hay, 1/2 each of lucerne and wheat hay probably a bucket of each.  I cut out the lucerne lately in favour of the wheat hay. 

I only got the speedibeet 2 days ago so only a litte to start with and I can build up - quick if needed.

Any suggestions on how I can shift around these ingredients that might work better for her?

Build up the Speedibeet and cut back on the stuff that is supposed to be good for laminitis?
Which hay is likely to be worse - rich lucerne or wheat hay?
Should I give her more oat chaff (almost no grain in it) instead of hay?


Background information: I am in Australia.  I am in a remote rural area and it is hard to get ANYTHING including the vet.  Her feet are trimmed short.  She is currently locked up in the cattle yards.  Grassy paddocks are the only alternative at this time of year.  I dont like foaling her down in dirty cattle yards that dont have shelter but the only alternative is paddocks with grass this time of year.  


OK, I have read a bit more this evening.  I plan to increase the amount of beet, cut down on lucerne hay to almost nothing and soak the wheat hay, give her bute 2X a day the vet provided, give her a mineral lick (or should I just give her salt? or salt and a mineral lick? 


Women get gestational diabetes - do horses get similar insulin problems when pregnant?


My neighbour lost 9 fat cows to pregnancy toxaemia a few weeks ago from a slight reduction in feed in late pregnancy and fat ewes are prone to pregnancy toxaemia if their food is reduced and I presume horses are no different.  


I would appreciate advice from anyone with experience with pregnant mares in similar situations.


Thanks in advance.



Re: Updated Case History, Suggestions Needed

CJ Stumpf
 

Kendra ,
I expect you are correct that the stall rest did not help Opie's IR situation. Exercise really seems to be so crucial to equine metabolism, in ways that are well understood as well as ways that are not.
On the other hand controlled exercise is required for tendon and ligament rehab, which means stall rest for all but the quietest.
You sound like you are making every effort to walk that fine line. I've been there and there are good outcomes, so keep up the good work. We will all be rooting for Opie!

---
CJ Stumpf
+1.617.816.8766

via iPhone


Re: Price and sources for Pergolide

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Deb,

The Metformin may or may not work at all. Some horses show improvement while others do not. It is not a long-term solution as it's effectiveness does wane over time - anywhere from a few weeks to a few months.

Check these past posts:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/184672

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/186238

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Price and sources for Pergolide

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Hi Carol-- If you do decide to try the Metformin you may have some trouble getting it into Beatle. I found that syringing it in (if he will let you) is the best way, but the pills need to soaked in water for twelve hours before they melt enough to be mashed up.

Lavinia, I see that you say the effect is only temporary. I had forgotten this and I wonder if you could elaborate. Cory has been on it for several weeks and I wonder now if it is helping any at this point.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: Price and sources for Pergolide

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Carol,

That sounds like the vet is prescribing Prascend, the patented form of the drug. It is quite expensive, although if you can get the vet to write a script instead of dispensing it himself the best price available is around $51 per 30 caplets.

There is also the compounded version of the drug available. If your vet is willing to write the script for you, it can be ordered as any size dose that is needed vs having to use multiple caplets with the Prascend. As Mandy mentioned, the price is quite reasonable for the compounded from many reputable pharmacies. Many of us use Pet Health Pharmacy, which Mandy provided the link to. Unless things have changed, unfortunately WI does not require that vets provide a script to their clients in lieu of dispensing the meds themselves but if you have a good relationship with your vet he may be willing to help you so you can better help Beatle without needing to "mortgage the farm". We recommend getting the capsule form, only ordering 30 days at a time and storing it in the door of the fridge.

You might also ask your vet about starting Beatle on metformin temporarily, while you are working on getting the PPID under control as his insulin and glucose levels are so extremely high. It doesn't always work, and if it does the effect is only temporary, but may be a consideration here to help get the laminitis/founder and weight loss issues turned around more quickly. Dose would 30mg/kg, twice daily.

Also would encourage you to get pics of his feet posted for us into the Photo section of ECHistory8 as it sounds like there are some trim issues that need to be resolved.Here is the link to how to take good pics:

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: gut problem/psyllium

paulah@...
 

If I remember correctly, the horse's gut adapts and starts to digest the psyllium after about 10 to 14 days, at which point it no longer functions as bulk and won't clear the sand out of the gut. It can still be beneficial to feed to help support a horse with digestive issues. If you want to use it for clearing sand, it is probably most effective to feed it 10 days in a row, once a month.
It can be purchased online in bulk--I don't remember where I got it.


Re: when to re-test ACTH

Nancy C
 

When you can't get to the FILES b.c of NEO, go to ecirhorse.org.  A lot of the same docs are there.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 






Re: when to re-test ACTH

chf1752@...
 

Thanks Jaini!

Times like this I really miss the old Yahoo.

Erin

ME

2014

Yahoo! Groups

 



Re: Price and sources for Pergolide

Mandy Woods
 

Carol,
Here is the page in the file regarding which state will allow you to order meds through your vet.
 
 
Mandy in VA


Re: gut problem

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <kansteen5545@...> wrote :

Thanks Dr. Kellon -
Is there a vaccine for horses for this?

= = = = = =

No, not yet.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Price and sources for Pergolide

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Carol,
I use Pet Health Pharmacy for compounded pergolide gel caps.  They charge $31.41 for 3 mgs/30 days.  The shipping is $6.25.  Total is $37.66.    I use autoship/charge so I don’t forget to order.  
 
The phone number is 800-742-0516  or
 
Your vet can call in an rx for you **IF** he wants to.  Some states don’t require him to do so/some do.
 
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 


Re: gut problem

kansteen5545@...
 

Thanks Dr. Kellon -
Is there a vaccine for horses for this? I know there is for dogs.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014

---- "drkellon@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

To clarify this further, coronavirus infection is also characterized by a very high fever. Around 25% can develop neurological signs caused by liver damage and high blood ammonia.


Re: gut problem

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <kansteen5545@...> wrote :

Hi
Just wanted to throw this out there. I was just reading the Nov. copy of Horse and Rider and it had an article in it about the Corona Virus now becoming a problem for horses, causing lack of appetite, lethargy and loose stools.

= = = = = = =

To clarify this further, coronavirus infection is also characterized by a very high fever.  Around 25% can develop neurological signs caused by liver damage and high blood ammonia.

This condition either clears or kills.  It does not become a chronic, on-going problem.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Price and sources for Pergolide

WATKINS@...
 

Dear Friends,
I have gotten feed back about my severely IR, Cushings and diabetic pony (thank you Lavinia). He needs 3mg of Pergolide per day. My question is about the price. I pay $144. per box of 60 tablets which will treat him for 20 days. Is this the going rate for this product or is there a cheaper source for the same thing. I will willingly pay what is necessary, but I dont want to be foolish. I do understand that this product must be ordered through my vet. I have replaced the red salt block with a white one and will start him on the Pergolide (reduced dose), vitamine E and ground flax seed today. Thanks for the help of this list. I look forward to a happier pony.
Carol and Beatle
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beatle.doc



Re: Updated Case History, Suggestions Needed

Kendra
 

>Insulin is not a stagnant number.  It goes up and down in response to the glucose.  Again, the "normal" used by the labs are too high for use in determining IR<


I normally have the vet draw insulin/glucose with spring/fall checkups but this fall we haven't yet. The vet felt tat due to the laminitis we wouldn't be able to get an accurate level. As soon as we notice a difference he will have his levels drawn again. I really think that the increase from 13 to 24 was due to the diet change I was unaware of at that time. The deal that was made is I prep his beet pulp with the rinse/soak/rinse method and he will not be taken off the beet pulp and nothing will be added in.


>I am confused about is Opie's ACTH.  You state that his levels (plural) have always been "well within the normal range", but I only see one ACTH in his CH.  It says "24?"<


I apologize. He has only had the one ACTH level done. I couldn't remember the exact level but know it was in the 24's and in the low normal range. The vet office is emailing me with all of his labs so I can properly input them. The levels were sent to the barn owner instead of me with that test. The plan was to do ACTH levels every 2 years as long as he did not show any symptoms. Unfortunately, he does seem to have symptoms. However, I'm not sure if it is due to potential early PPID or to prolonged stall rest for rehab of his torn check ligaments.


>The fact that Opie's crest "continues to flair up" and that he has laminitis (which actually started during the seasonal rise period) means that something is driving his insulin up, either his diet, or a high ACTH.  If Opie is early PPID, which is suggested by the fact that he is doing better on the Prascend, after your 60 day trial period, we will be out of the seasonal rise period.  That, in combination with the Prascend may make his ACTH when you recheck it, come back normal.  Some early PPID horses only need pergolide during the seasonal rise.  Please go back to my original post and reread the information in all the links I sent you.  There's lots of information in those links that will help you to manage Opie.  IR and PPID are progressive diseases and require constant adjustment in management.<


Like I said, it's hard knowing whether the flair ups are caused by early PPID (which I am inclined to think due to immediate changes on the Prascend) or from his IR and prolonged stall rest. He went from working 6 days a week to very strict confinement for several months. I will ask the barn owner if one of the vets are coming out earlier to possibly draw a new ACTH but regardless if he doesn't get it for 60 days he will still get spring testing during that seasonal rise, on top of the 60 day testing. With his IR I tend to be highly neurotic and check him over daily during grooming for any potential changes. We have only had these issues since stall rest and it is so frustrating! I also forwarded all of the info to the vet so we can make an appropriate plan. The vet is very supportive of this site and speaks highly of it. :)


>As far as the multi vitamin supplement goes, I'm not sure why you feel like you need it.<


Even without balancing the hay I do know it is HIGHLY deficient in pretty much everything. Due to our boarding and inability to do the analysis the vet felt that a multi vitamin would be the best bet when we took him off the ration balancer for the stall rest. I am looking more towards one of two vitamins that are produced specifically for the PNW tight now so it is more targeted towards the actual deficiencies rather than an abundance of everything. Once I get the ingredient list it will be easier to decide.


>Still, balancing your hay is the best way to feed Opie.  Lots of members have found innovative ways to store hay that they purchase and store for their own horses.<


I will speak with the barn owner today to see if we can make one area specifically for the storage of Opie's hay. I really don't have any other options if we can't. I should have an answer today on that. If it works out and I can get storage and analysis I am very poor at math and will need lots of hand holding lol.


Do IR horses suffer from seasonal rises in insulin without having PPID? Can they respond favorably to Prascend if they are just IR? The stall rest has taken so much out of him. I will have time to dig through all of the links tonight for more specifics. I am also hopeful to load pics in tonight into his file. He really has gone through a huge change since coming to us. He taped at 850lbs on his pre purchase exam (13.1hh) and is now taping at 685lbs. You are correct that we do not know how long he suffered from high insulin prior to purchase. He was constantly on grass and fed grain before I bought him.


Kendra and Opie

Washington

July 2013

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Kendra-Washington/
 


  





Re: Low numbers, sick horse

hinecedark@...
 


ECIR FILES - SEARCH-AND-CLICK TABLE OF CONTENTS

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

To quickly find information in the files use the ECIR Files Table of Content

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The ECIR Table of Contents (TOC) lists all documents in the all ECIR Groups Files sections. Case Histories, Hay Analysis, Member Work Sheets and Photos have been excluded.  In the TOC you will also find "Also See" sections linking to information that cannot be found in the files. 

Links to the ECIR files go to folders, not the exact documents.  Therefore after clicking you'll have to scroll through the folder to find and open the specific document you are looking for.


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If you have difficulty opening files, contact the EquineCushings-owner@ yahoogroups.com 

Thank you for your cooperation.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists



Re: Updated Case History, Suggestions Needed

Maggie
 

Hi Kendra,
 
I'm not confused.  Insulin is not a stagnant number.  It goes up and down in response to the glucose.  Again, the "normal" used by the labs are too high for use in determining IR.  Our numbers are based on the pony field study which I linked to before.  You can search the archives for more information on that.   
 
I am confused about is Opie's ACTH.  You state that his levels (plural) have always been "well within the normal range", but I only see one ACTH in his CH.  It says "24?"  and it was over a year ago, in July 2013.  Do you have any other ACTH's?  Any during the seasonal rise?  All horses have a natural rise in their ACTH during the seasonal rise, but PPID horse can have an exaggerated rise in their ACTH, causing a risk for fall laminitis.
 
The fact that Opie's crest "continues to flair up" and that he has laminitis (which actually started during the seasonal rise period) means that something is driving his insulin up, either his diet, or a high ACTH.  If Opie is early PPID, which is suggested by the fact that he is doing better on the Prascend, after your 60 day trial period, we will be out of the seasonal rise period.  That, in combination with the Prascend may make his ACTH when you recheck it, come back normal.  Some early PPID horses only need pergolide during the seasonal rise.  Please go back to my original post and reread the information in all the links I sent you.  There's lots of information in those links that will help you to manage Opie.  IR and PPID are progressive diseases and require constant adjustment in management.  There's lots of information in our files and archived messages on the subject.  Several of the volunteers, as well as other members, frequently post wrt making these adjustments. 
 
As far as the multi vitamin supplement goes, I'm not sure why you feel like you need it.  In addition to balanced minerals, horses on a hay only diet need Vit E, salt and ground flax seed to replace the Omega 3 and 6 FA's that are lost in the hay curing process.  If your hay is older than a year, you may need Vit A.  Horses make their own Vit C and B vitamins, so no need to supplement those, and like I said previously, there are B vitamins contained in that Smartpac mix that you need to avoid in an IR horse.  Have you looked at California Trace or Arizona Copper Complete to help balance your hay?  Though they won't "balance" your hay without testing it, they do contain more Cu and Zn than what you are using, which are usually the most lacking minerals in hay. Here's a link:  http://www.californiatrace.com/ingredients.html  and  http://www.desertequinebalance.com/az-copper-complete  Still, balancing your hay is the best way to feed Opie.  Lots of members have found innovative ways to store hay that they purchase and store for their own horses. Scroll down in this folder to find the "hay-finding and storing" file:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Together/
  
Here's the link to your CH:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Kendra-Washington/  If you put it in your signature each time that you post, it really helps us to find it faster.
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


Re: gut problem

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi
Just wanted to throw this out there. I was just reading the Nov. copy of Horse and Rider and it had an article in it about the Corona Virus now becoming a problem for horses, causing lack of appetite, lethargy and loose stools. They have a test for it so you could have it checked out - your vet should know about it.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014

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