Date   

Re: Laura & Hope - 22 yr old TB mare

Laura Cull
 

Hi Jaini,
I will be picking up the pergolide from my vet tomorrow. I'm really nervous that she won't react well to it, just because she is SO sensitive. But I have to give it a try and hope for the best. If she doesn't do well on it then even that is helpful information.
I've checked and Champion doesn't have a dealer in BC south of McBride. I don't need to feed Hope beet pulp as she is fine with soya hulls. Would you agree that is fine or is there another product you would recommend as a beet pulp alternative?
I can get the ProForm ProFibre Crunch so I will gradually switch her over from the Equi-Cal.
Working on getting another hay analysis. Will upload it once it arrives.
Thanks for all your help.

Laura & Hope
Kelowna, BC, Canada
Oct 2014


Re: Insulin rising fast

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

Our horses often suffer from euthyroid sick syndrome. 

http:/groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/105460

Personally, I don't think your eating schedule as described was the issue.  The group recommends seeing what the levels are for a horse eating a low ESC and Starch meal and it sounds like that is what you have done.  Insulin could be elevated if the over night fast had been recently broken but you've stated she had been eating for three hours.

Magnesium and zinc are huge for IR help.  I know you are feeding ODTB but some good info here:

2013 Proceedings & Recordings Table of Contents

 

  See:

ECIR 2013 Proceedings Kellon Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance

and

ECIR 2013 Proceedings Kellon Iron Overload and Insulin Resistance

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


I have started her on a very low dose L-Thyro and will let you know what
I see.

 


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/



Re: Help with diet etc. Sub clinical laminitis questions Sue and Wiz

iluvzhorses@...
 

Where in NC??  There are lots of places with orchard grass, or I get truckloads of Timothy shipped in


Lisa/Louie
Eastern NC
2012


Re: Insulin rising fast

beverly meyer
 

Thanks Lisa, Linda and Nancy for responding.
Do you think Ginger's eating ODTB for 3 hours (slow eater - no teeth)
right up to blood draw would affect insulin?
Are there any supplements approved for insulin management?
Since her thyroid numbers are low, I researched a bit on thyroid and IR.
Here's one study i found:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jtr/2011/152850/
I have started her on a very low dose L-Thyro and will let you know what
I see.
Ant other ideas in climbing IR in an exclusively ODTB fed pony, please
let me know!
Beverly 5/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Cato labs

hinecedark@...
 

I don't have hard copy yet, just voice mail from vet. CBC and Chem 6 done, everything normal but CPK and AST "mildly elevated". I'm only familiar with CPK being associated with muscle damage, which there is no indication of (recent injury, etc.). Any thoughts?

Thank you,

Meliinda and Cato

IN 2010

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/files/MelindaIndy/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/photos/albums/854694022




Re: vet question

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Erin -
Let me know if you got my e-mail message sent to your e-mail address.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014


Re: Laura & Hope - 22 yr old TB mare

Lorna Cane
 


>Unfortunately I can't get Uckele products in my area. I wish I could as I love Zephyr's garden products too.


They will ship to you ,Laura,but the shipping is outrageous, in my experience.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc. Shop For Charity, Donations, Fundraising, Online - iGive 

 



Re: Laura & Hope - 22 yr old TB mare

Maggie
 

Laura,
 
>>does this mean starting with 0.25 mg AND increasing by that amount?
 
 
"Some, but not all horse experience what we call the "pergolide veil" when first starting on the drug.  To avoid this, we recommend that you start with 0.25mg for 3 or 4 days and increase the dose by 0.25mg every 3 o 4 days until you reach your target dose.  Once at your target dose for 2-4 weeks, we recommend retesting the ACTH to make sure that the amount of pergolide that you are giving is controlling the ACTH."
 
>>hopefully the seasonal ACTH spike is over.
 
 
"If this were my horse, I would start her on pergolide now, today, tapering up the dose by .25 mg every 3 days.  I would re-test 3 weeks after reaching 1 mg."
 
"One starts at 1mg, tests again, and doses to effect. My horses have their highest levels in November, so Hope may be heading for a big ACTH increase (normal, non-PPID horses start the rise in late August and are on the downswing by the end of October; PPID horses start earlier and the rise lasts longer)"
 
Again, once you have Hope on 1 mg for 3 weeks, you should retest to make sure you are giving enough pergolide.  After the seasonal rise is over in late November/December, or longer for some PPID horses, it does not mean that Hope will not need pergolide.  Hope's ACTH was over double the normal in August, the early part of the seasonal rise, which means she could well be much higher now, during the peak of the seasonal rise.  Since PPID horses have earlier and more prolonged rise in their ACTH, Hope's may stay up into December or later.  This year you will be chasing her ACTH with the pergolide trying to get it under control.  Next year, you will be ahead of the game and know to increase the pergolide before the seasonal rise starts.
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


 


Re: Laura & Hope - 22 yr old TB mare

Laura Cull
 

hi - I will contact my vet tomorrow about starting Hope on pergolide.
from Jaini's reply "If this were my horse, I would start her on pergolide now, today, tapering up the dose by .25 mg every 3 days.  I would re-test 3 weeks after reaching 1 mg."
does this mean starting with 0.25 mg AND increasing by that amount? just want to make sure I'm reading that correctly.
we are about 2-3 days into a cold snap. the ground is frozen and we are getting as low as -11*C overnight. hopefully the seasonal ACTH spike is over.
Laura & Hope
Kelowna, BC, Canada
Oct 2014
 


Re: Laura & Hope - 22 yr old TB mare

Laura Cull
 

Hi Eleanor,
Unfortunately I can't get Uckele products in my area. I wish I could as I love Zephyr's garden products too.
Laura & Hope
Kelowna, BC, Canada
Oct 2014


High sugar in Hay

Jacque White
 

Hello...I am new to the group and live in Alaska.  I own a mule and a mammoth donkey that both suffer from high insulin.  Our local timothy is to high in sugar, so I'm buying hay shipped from WA ( Anderson Farms)  which is still very high.  I am waiting on Teff Hay to arrive.  I am feeding 1 cup of Purina L/S, along with millennium gold supplements and Elevate (for vitamin E) in the morning. In the evening they get 1 cup of Purina L/S and MSM.  I tried feeding Quiessence but saw no change. Because of our weather it is not practical to soak and dry hay.  My animals don't like eating wet hay when it's below zero. Is there anything I can do to help them?  The mule is 14.3h and weighs 1033 and I feed 16# of hay. My donkey is 14h and weighs 834 and I am feeding her 14# of hay. I would appreciate any info that might help our situation.

Thanks kindly,

Jacque


Re: Insulin rising fast

Nancy C
 

This may sound contrary to recent discussions about seasonal rise and where ACTH should be.  With my guy who can tip easily into laminitis every fall, I keep the ACTH lower than 40. I'd rather see 20 or so.

The other things that can drive insulin are iron overload and the onset of cold/cooler weather.  We also may have tick issues that can also drive laminitis. I try to hedge my bets on  all levels. 

We also work very hard on the trim to make sure it is tight, especially now.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


ACTH better at 40 with increase of Pergolide in Ocotber. So ACTH ok, glucose same, but insulin doubled!
Thanks for any advice how what I am missing and how to bring under control. 
Beverly 5/14
Beverly Texas EC8
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas



Re: Help with diet etc. Sub clinical laminitis questions Sue and Wiz

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

Here is the link to Wiz's xrays:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/944050477

Yes, remove the Himalayan Block as it contains unknown amounts of salt mixed with dirt. Iodized table salt is a better, less expensive alternative. A white salt block is fine for additional access but won't provide enough salt for maintainence. Need to supplement 2 oz (2 TBS) salt daily in the feed when not sweating, more if working/sweating.

Aqua Aid is an expensive way to add plain salt and potassium. Horses get enough potassium from their hay and plain table salt is cheaper. Horse Quencher is a mix of barley, corn, oats, molasses - totally unacceptable for an IR (or possibly IR) horse. One of the key reasons behind dehydration is a lack of salt in the diet, which will diminish the thirst mechanism. Get the salt intake corrected and you will re-establish the thirst mechanism.

Soaking the hay when the sugar/starch is unknown is definitely recommended. Remove the TC Senior, alfalfa, TC rice bran oil. Kombat Boots is a yeast supplement - many horses get gassy and bloated with yeast supplementation, esp at high levels. Mandy has addressed these aspects for you.

In the previous xrays, all of Wiz's coffin bones are either ground parallel or negative plane. This means that the back of the coffin bone is lower than it should be in relation to the front of the CB. It causes the the pastern to have a broken back configuration, with the tendons and ligaments in a constant state of strain. Long toes and underrun heels are the usual cause. These issues can also cause tripping. The angle the xrays were taken from is awkward and makes interpreting them clearly a bit difficult. The soles are thin and it appears as if the coffin bones in front may be sitting a bit lower in the hoof capsule than they should be.

Pics of the current trim would be helpful. They can be added to Wiz's album in ECHistory8.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Re: Insulin rising fast

PapBallou@...
 



My only kernel of advice would be to make doubly sure her trim is really spot on, to help reduce the possibility that foot pain might be contributing to elevated insulin. 

---------------------------------------

Just a little war story to tag on to this - about 18 months ago I started trimming a pony with horribly out of balance feet.  Deformed would be a better term.  At that time, he was changed from liquid compounded pergolide to Prascend, stopped the senior feed and went onto a tested safe grass hay, with BP and a low carb pellet.  His insulin was 40.

A few weeks later, after making significant changes to his feet, which he clearly liked, he had labs run again.  The vet happened to draw the blood on the same day of the most recent trim and set of Eponas.

Insulin was 100!  There was no reason for this other than the changes to the trim were affecting him and probably caught by the coincidence of the trim session to the blood draw..  Outwardly he was standing, moving about and was clearly a happier pony.  But the feet were undergoing some major changes that apparently his body was reacting to in a 'stress' mode, even though he sure didn't look or act stressed.

He now lives with me.  I haven't retested blood, but considering this little monster is all over the place, I'm not too inclined to do so.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Insulin rising fast

Lisa S
 

Beverly,

I am not full of advice today but just wanted to reassure you that plenty of us who DON'T have anything meaningful to contribute are still out here rooting for you and Ginger! 

The horses and ponies that have climbing insulin despite good management (and good labs otherwise) are so frustrating. 

My only kernel of advice would be to make doubly sure her trim is really spot on, to help reduce the possibility that foot pain might be contributing to elevated insulin. I was unable to find photos of Ginger or previous x-rays--probably my lack of Neo-detective skills--but if you don't have recent radiographs, I would recommend shooting some. 

I am fortunate enough to have my own equipment so I am able to x-ray my Pookey Bear before each trim. When I have gotten lazy and failed to do this, his trim his often gotten away from us. I am told this is because severely compromised laminitic feet like his often lie. Certainly I have been surprised many times by the amount of excess toe that could be taken off, and occasionally by serious medio-lateral imbalance (found on the DP view) that likely was causing him a good bit of pain. 

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear, IR
June 2010



Re: Help with diet etc. Sub clinical laminitis questions Sue and Wiz

Mandy Woods
 

Hey Sue D,
Welcome to the list.    I have read your Case History on Wiz but I did not find your xrays.
 
As you have probably read the list philosophy is DDT/E.   These need to be done  at the same time to   get optimal results.   I can tell you that you are on the right track but now you need that extra boot to get his DIET right!
 
Diagnosis of Cushings and treating with Prascend.  This lab was before the seasonal rise.  You did not do follow up bloodwork to make sure you were in giving the correct dose.  We are now on the down hill side of the rise.  It ends around the end of December but its different for each horse.  I would want to know if he needs to be on Prascend year round so redoing your lab work in December would tell you.  We aim for the ACTH number to be in the middle of ‘normal’.  
 
Since he is an Arabian,  I would also test his Insulin/Glucose/Leptin at Cornell.    Cushings is treated with medication.  IR is managed by DIET.   You have lots of room to change his diet to  low sugar/starch balanced minerals.    His tripping could be from subclinical laminitis or incorrect trim.        Start by soaking/draining his hay.  If this is too difficult you could feed ODTB   cubes  100% or as part of the soaked hay meal.   You can also call different hay exchanges to see where low sugar/starch hay is available.   I know of one barn  that carries it in NC.    You could also find hay that is safe,  store it at your home (pallets/tarps)  and take what you need already bagged in hay nets to the barn for the barn staff to feed.   Your supplements could be sent in baggies.    or change barns where IR is a normal routine.  
In the meantime,  you could pull him off pasture,  feed him soaked/drained hay and add the Temporary Emergency minerals of Vitamin E,  loose iodized table salt,  magnesium and freshly ground flax seed.  This recipe is in the Start Here file and at ecirhorse.org
 
Wiz will need at least 4 small meals a day.  Do NOT fast him for the IR bloodwork. Feed him soaked /drained    grass hay the night before and the day of the test.
 
What you should stop feeding right now until you have a DIAGNOSIS that he is NOT IR is the Rice Bran Oil and treats.   You  should  see a great improvement in removing the sugars from his diet.   The list recommends 10% and below s/s a day for IR.    Oil worsens IR.    Some herbs contain minerals that block the absorption of others.   You need  a hay analysis  so you know exactly what you are feeding Wiz.   The Himalayan salt block has iron and dirt in it.  I would stop that today.  Go to Walmart and pickup all the ER minerals you need.  A round box of salt costs < 50cents.   Start slowly but a full grown horse needs 2 rounded TBS a day of salt!  to balance the potassium in the hay.  Horses have smooth tongues so licking a white salt block is more for their amusement   the loose iodized salt is what they need to start balancing minerals.   When you add Selenium you may see another big change in him because  Iodine and Selenium can jump start a sluggish thryroid.   While you’re at Walmart,  go the sports department and buy a fish hanging scale.  You will need to know how much hay you are feeding a day.   Weigh the hay dry, in hay nets,  then soak/drain them.   Soaking for one hour in cold water reduces sugar up to 30%.   Don’t go over one hour or you have to change the water.
 
The carrier for your minerals can be rinsed/soaked/rinsed plain shredded beet pulp,  ODTB crumbs,  or  NUZU  Stabil 1 feed.   These two are tasty, safe and low s/s.  The cubes are a complete meal so if hay becomes scarce you can feed this alone.
 
TRIM is a big part of horse soundness.   We find many farrier leave the toes too long and the heels too high.   Please send a link to your photos  and xrays.   Taking pictures of his feet will really help the hoof gurus in their comments.  
 
EXERCISE can be handwalking only **IF** the horse is willing. Never force a laminitic horse to move.  A horse with any Coffin Bone rotation or laminitis should NOT BE RIDDEN.    If WIZ has thin soles,  he should be in boots and pads or the EquiCasts.  He can
become a sinker.    That  can take years to fix.   We generally see a horse needing one year to grow a new tightly attached cb to the laminae/hoofwall.   Some horses take longer.
 
Please start a journal on Wiz.  Daily changes that seem insignificant can be important!  Start a photo log on him too. 
 
Your questions:   I would not feed any Aqua Aid, or horse quenchers.  Just feed him loose iodized table salt.   Start at 1 tsp.    Less is more.
 
Here are some links you will need.  
 
http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html
 
http://www.softrideboots.com/1/
 
www.equi-analytical.com  ~t the Trainer # 603 for $54 after you secure several months + of grass hay. 
 
 
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 
 
 
www.ecirhorse.org
 
 
 
Sue,  this all sound greek and crazy  in the beginning.  We didn’t get her by not having success stories!   IF you are feeling overwhelmed you are normal!   We did too!   ITs part of the learning curve.   You will find help in NC.   We have members all over the world that are willing to help you.   Just take a deep breath,  eat some dark chocolate and have a glass of wine ~ then get started!    Ask questions.
 
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: First time Cushing's!

Maggie
 

Hi Rachel,
 
Welcome to the group!  Really glad that you found us because we can answer your questions and give you some information that you can give to your vet as well.  Unfortunately lots of vets are still a little confused over Cushing's (PPID) and IR (insulin resistance).  They are 2 distinctly different conditions that have some similar and overlapping symptoms.  This group, run by Dr. Kellon, who is well renowned for her work with IR and PPID, has the most cutting edge information available on the 2 conditions.  We follow a philosophy called DDT/E.  That stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, and Exercise.  Getting the Diagnosis right is really key to getting the treatment right.  So, let me explain each aspect and along the way I will try to answer each one of your questions.  What I really need you to do so that we can help you the best is to fill out a case history (CH) on Harley.  You will have to join another group called ECH8, but it should not take long to get approved.  It's our current "filing cabinet" where we store CH's.  Here's a link:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  Yahoo's new Neo format has made doing some tasks rather difficult, so if you have any trouble, just let us know and we can help you.
 
Ok, the DDT/E philosophy....
 
Diagnosis:  To get a complete diagnosis you need a single blood draw on a NON fasting horse for these 4 tests:  ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin.  The blood does require special handling (chilled immediately, spun down within 4 hours, etc) and the details can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis   That link will take you directly to the "diagnosis" page of the website, but there is so much great information on the whole website that I suggest you read the entire thing!  You need to arm yourself with the information you need to take the best care of Harley!  Our website is also a great place to refer your vet for the latest information on PPID and IR.  Cushing's disease is not that common (though not unheard of) until after the age of 10, so at the age of 11, Harley is definitely in the "at risk" category.  And Morgan's could be the "poster child" for insulin resistance.  So you may be looking at both IR and PPID.  A horse can have just PPID, just IR, or both, or neither, of course.  The tests that I mentioned above help to give a complete diagnosis, which is what you need to know sothat you khow to treat.  PPID is treated with medicine (pergolide) and IR is treated with diet.  A horse that has both IR and PPID would need both pergolide and a carefully managed diet for the rest of it's life.  Yes, both IR and PPID are progressive conditions, but can be managed through the use of pergolide and/or diet, whichever is appropriate.  Since so many PPID horses are also IR, until you get a diagnosis, you should definitely put your mare on the IR diet!  Did your vet start Harley on pergolide back when you initially had her tested and she said Harley was "on the cusp" of Cushings?  I'm not sure what she meant by that, and we would need to see the actual numbers to help you sort that information out.  That's one of the things you will be including in your CH--the actual numbers and normal values of any lab work that you've had done.
 
One more thing about diagnosis and then I will move on to Diet.  When you had Harley tested and the insulin came back "normal" that does not necessarily mean that your horse is not IR.  The normal ranges that the labs use are too high.  We use this calculator to plug the insulin and glucose numbers in to see if IR is part of the diagnosis:  http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html   And one more thing!  I need to address the "seasonal rise" because that may well be what you are dealing with. The seasonal rise is the time of year (fall--August through Nov/Dec) when all horses have a natural rise in their ACTH to prepare for winter.  PPID horses have an exaggerated, and often prolonged rise in their ACTH, which puts them at risk for fall laminitis.  In fact, though there are other symptoms, fall laminitis is often the first sign of PPID.  There's lot of information about the seasonal rise on our website.  You may be surprised, thinking back, that Harley may have had some the more subtle symptoms of PPID.  Here's a link to that part of our website: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise  Ok, on to Diet! 
 
Diet:  The diet that you need to start Harley on now is called the emergency diet.  This a temporary diet that you are going to use until you can get your hay tested.  Then you will be able to progress on to a forage based low sugar/low starch (under 10% sugar+starch) and low fat (under 4%) mineral balanced diet.  It's the best diet for an IR horse and also supports a PPID horse as well.  We recommend grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar + starch with minerals balanced to the hay analysis and then to replace the ingredients that are lost in the hay curing process, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  Until you can get your hay tested, you are going to start the emergency diet.  It won't balance your minerals but it will help with some things that are usually deficient.  The details can be found on the Diet page of our webpage here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  The emergency diet does involve soaking your hay to remove up to ~30% of the sugar content.  You can often see improvement within a few days doing this.   You should feed Harley 1.5-2% of her BW in soaked (an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water) , drained grass hay and then add the other emergency ingredients (iodized salt, magnesium, Vitamin E and ground flax seed) in the amounts as listed for Harley's weight.  We LOVE the small mesh hay nets.  They are great weighing and/or soaking hay, and can really slow down the hay consumption to make that hay last as much of 24 hours/day as possible.. Make sure you dump the dirty, sugary water where the horse(s) cannot get to it!  You can get a fish scale at Walmart for ~$10 to weigh your hay.  As important as not overfeeding is not under feeding.  You want to make sure she gets 1.5-2% of her BW in hay and/or other safe (under 10%sugar/starch) feed.
 
A very important part of the emergency diet is what you DON'T feed!  No pasture, no sugary treats, including apples and carrots, no grain or products containing molasses.  No red salt blocks as they contain iron and sometime molasses, neither of which you want.  Most IR horse are already iron overloaded, so we want to eliminate extra iron in their diets.  They get plenty in their hay.
 
To see how to get your hay tested, visit this site: http://equi-analytical.com/  You want the #603, trainer's package for $54, not the #601.  Once you have your hay tested one of our balancing folks can help you with the mineral balancing part.  I know it all sounds greek now, but it will make sense as you go along!  There is a rather steep learning curve to all of this, but I promise, it does get easier!  It's a rather drastic change in horse keeping practice for a lot of folks, but it's the absolutely best way to feed our "special" metabolically challenged equines!  You've already started some of it with Harley, so you are well on your way! 
 
It's great that Harley has gotten to a healthy weight!  That's an essential part of the treatment for IR.  You mention that you used thyroxin to help take the weight off.  Is she still on the thyroxin?  Primary disease of the thyroid is very rare in horses, but sometimes an unbalanced diet can make their thyroid levels low.  Once they have adequate amounts of iodine and selenium, the thyroid levels return to normal.  The thyroxin needs to be weaned of slowly because it suppresses the horses own thyroid function.  Weaning it off slowly gives the horse's own thyroid a chance to kick back in.
 
Ok, on to Trim!
 
Trim:  A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  The trim on a laminitc hoof may not look normal until the part of the hoof with the damaged lamina grows out--could be a year or even more.  You are strongly encouraged to post your xrays and hoof pictures to the PHOTOS section of ECH8.  Here's a site that explains how to take good hoof pictures:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html  Once you have your pictures and xrays posted, make sure you let us know so that one of our hoof gurus can take a look and see if you have a proper trim in place.  Some farriers are not up to date on the latest trim guidelines for an laminitic or foundered foot, so strongly suggest you follow this step.  Our hoof gurus deal with this problem every day and can offer some "mark ups" for you and your farrier on a proper trim for a laminitic/foundered foot.  When you called your vet with this most recent lameness, did she come out and do more xrays?  Current xrays would also be recommended if it's in the budget. 
 
Exercise:  The best IR buster there is, but a laminitic horse should never be forced to move!  You are absolutely correct in saying you don't want your horse sore!  Boots and pads are often an essential part getting a laminitic horse comfortable.  In the meantime, you should definitely not be riding Harley.  You can let her move around as she will.  If she is extremely sore, you may need to put her in a deeply bedded stall and/or use boots and pads to protect her feet.  As she becomes able, you can hand walk her in long straight lines with no tight turns.  No lunging, no round pen work.  You don't want to damage the fragile new lamina as they grow in.
 
So, in summary, you need to:
 
1) get a diagnosis to see if Harley needs pergolide.  In fact, your vet may even consider a "trial" of pergolide.  Given the fall laminitis, my gut tells me that you are dealing with Cushing's.  If your vet is willing to do a pergolide trial and it helps, you can wait to test until you get her on the pergolide to see if the dose is controlling her ACTH.
2) start the emergency diet! 
3) join ECH8 and get a CH done on her. 
4) stop riding her, if you are, and protect her feet with boots and pads or even duct tape some protection onto her feet.  We've tons of ideas for this--just ask!
 
Those are the essentials!  Then you need to:
 
1) get some photos of Harley's feet and post them in the PHOTOS section of ECH8
2) get your hay tested and eventually balanced.
 
Rachel,  I bet you have a million more questions now!  There is a TON of information on our website and in our files, so definitely read around those places.  I dare say, any question you may have will probably have an answer in those places, but don't hesitate to ask any questions as they come up.  We are here to help you help Harley!  Like I said, the learning curve here is a little steep, but it does all get easier and then eventually just becomes your new way of horse keeping.  People with non-metabolic horses may think you're nuts!  But you will see the positive changes that the DDT/E's make in Harley and you will know that you are doing the right thing!
 
We ask all members to sign their name (first is fine), date of joining the group, and general location each time they post.  Additionally, once you get Harley's CH done, please put a link to it in your signature as well.  It really helps us to find it faster and consequently answer your questions faster.  Hang in there!
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/
 
 


Re: how much Pergolide?

k.schouwenburg@...
 

I hate this yahoo system, I just don't get messages when someone answers on my posts. I apologize for not answering. I don't understand the system of all the posts nested either...

Nancy I still had foot problems but that is after another lami attack in april. It cost me 120 euro (150 $) to do a blood test so I am not testing the blood as often as you all do. I don't know what the insuline is at the moment. The unresolved IR is going on for years now, and as stated the test after feeding the Copra was better. That is all I know.
She is on 1/2 Pergolide now and doing really well.
The feet seem to get more concave but there is still a weird 'plastic' surface there.
Working on the feet with ABC hoofcare group helping. Hard to find a good trimmer here.

Kind regards,
Karin & Kaya

History:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Karin%20Schouwenburg/

 



Re: Help with diet etc. Sub clinical laminitis questions Sue and Wiz

hawkhilldeb@...
 

Hi Sue--  I'm sure knowledgeable people will be answering your questions soon, but I just wanted to say that since I see you are in North Carolina, I am wondering if your barn is feeding coastal hay?  If so you may want to look at the hay analyses in my folder.  You will see that the coastal has an inverted calcium/ phosporus ratio and extremely high zinc that needs to be balanced.  This could be going on with your hay also.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710

 


Help with diet etc. Sub clinical laminitis questions Sue and Wiz

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Hi,

I posted a case history and x-rays for Wiz, a 16 year old Arabian gelding diagnosed PPID in June 2014.

In general he is so very much improved since starting Prascend (demeanor and attitude and the spark is back) and after making changes to diet (with veterinary input) and his boarding situation.   I am riding about 4 times a week and recently started to take some schooling lessons again but still feel something is not quite right.  

I read recently in one case history a comment regarding "tripping" possibly having a connection to sub clinical laminitis and after some further reading and research am having concerns that this is an issue for Wiz, as he trips quite regularly, something that never happened in the past ( issue began just prior to diagnosis). I also note from several articles (reputable) that there are other possible signs that I am identifying with him too: tenderness on harder surfaces (we already know he has thin soles hence the front shoes), seedy toe, small areas of bruising on hoof wall, and a short stridedness to name a few.  He is trimmed regularly (-about every five weeks) by the farrier I have used consistently for last 7 years.  (She is highly recommended by nationally known and recognized equine podiatrist (VMD), so I do not think trim is the issue). 

The X-rays posted were taken March 2014 - no issues other than farrier made a slight change in the trim on one rear foot.

Plan to make an appointment with the podiatry specialist to evaluate further to put my own mind at rest as it seems prudent to follow this up. 

Also

1. Should I change out the Himalayan salt block to a white salt block?

2. Should he get a salt supplement daily also ?  Is Aqua Aid ok?

3. Sometimes use Horse Quencher as a water additive to encourage hydration?  Is this ok?

4. I board so have not had hay analysis done, but can if deemed important, however, as we buy only in smaller quantities from different sources does it make sense to just soak the hay if necessary?


Appreciate any input / feedback on diet etc


Thanks


Sue D / 

North Carolina 

June 2014



https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SueandWiz/



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