Date   

Re: Haystack Feeds

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Carolyn,

My IR/PPID horse is extremely limited/not allowed any alfalfa(whether it is pure alfalfa pellets or a grain/supplement with alfalfa base) because he has very sensitive kidneys(he went through kidney failure in September) so the alfalfa is very hard for him to process. You could call Haystack, but I would say that you know your horse better than anyone with what he needs/can handle.

Stephanie
Oregon
Oct 2014


Re: High sugar in Hay

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Hi Jacque,

Unfortunately, Yahoo's Neo has been making things difficult. Did you get the invite I sent to your yahoo address? If so, just click on the JOIN link in the invite and it should make it simple for you. If you didn't receive the invite please let us know.

Great that you are using haynets. If needed, there are bags available that have even smaller holes to make the hay last even longer. Yes, divide the total amount of hay for the day into 3-4 feedings if possible. This way, they don;t get excessive insulin spikes when they eat after not having access to any food for over 6 hours. If possible, you should remove the Purina L/S. Beet pulp needs to be weighed out dry then rinse/soak/rinse it before feeding. The first rinse removes surface iron and dirt, the soak leaches out any excess sugars, the final rinse clears away the soaked out sugars.

There are no miracle products out there. Wish there were. What you will need to supplement is based on what is missing/excessive in your base forage. Copper, zinc, vit E are universally deficient in hay. Selenium, salt and iodine are deficient in many. Iron never needs supplementation as it is universally adequate for adults in the diet. To be able to balance a diet appropriately, you will need to get a more comprehensive hay analysis. We recommend using Equi-Analytical and getting the Trainer #603. Here's the link to their site:

http://equi-analytical.com/standard-analytical-services/

You can order a free test kit from them. We do not recommend the Equi-Tech testing as it IS NOT an accurate method to get the results you need.

From the blood results you posted the mule is extremely IR, bordering on actual diabetic. Blood work confirms no PPID (Cushings). The donkey is likely the same. Your current hay has ESC+Starch that is much too high for an IR equid. The total needs to be 10% or lower - your's is 9.6 + 3.56 = 13.16. The only way to lower this is to soak the hay. As that is a problem in Alaska, you could try contacting Ontario Dehy to see about getting the Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy Cubes. Ask to speak to Aurelio:

http://www.ontariodehy.com/tab02-07.htm

The foot soreness in your donkey with the onset of the real cold may be cold-induced vaso-spasm. It is a secondary issue after laminitis/founder and the compression of the vasculature that results from it. Getting IR under control, then getting trim issues squared away are the primary goals here. Then you can add AAKG and Jiaogulan to help increase circulation and keep pain at bay. Keeping the legs and feet warm (wraps, boots, blankets) anytime the temps drop into the 40's or lower will also help.

Really encourage you to post the xrays and picture of the feet as it sounds like there may be unrecognized issues at play here.

Hang in there, we'll help you get this sorted out.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Vets who know cushings

lj friedman
 

Does anyone know of any vets that specialize in the Cushing's in the San Diego area? My horses is also close to orange county and Riverside County as well. Lj friedman nov 14. San diego

Sent from my iPhone


Re: Gateway SU-PER Sound Plus powder Joint Support for a horse with Cushings

Maggie
 

Replying to myself!  "He cannot eat, correct?"  is supposed to say "He cannot eat HAY, correct?" 

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/
 
To treat the IR and support the Cushing's (PPID) we recommend a low sugar/starch/fat forage based mineral balanced diet.  We aim for less than 10% combined sugar + starch, and ~4 fat.  Normally, we recommend grass hay with minerals balanced to the hay analysis, plus iodized salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  Since Freckles is 40 with few remaining teeth, do I understand that you are feeding him just soaked pellets with added supplements?  He cannot eat, correct?  There is a product that is completely balanced called Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's).  They are Timothy hay cubes with the minerals already balanced according to Dr Kellon's specifications.  You can add water to them to "fluff" them, but not so much water that you would be pouring it off and losing the minerals that make them balanced. You would only have to add salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  I also see that you mentioned that the soaked pellets are freezing.  You may have the same problems with the wet ODTB's.  Have your tried placing Freckle's feed bucket into, say, an insulated cooler?  Or a heated bucket?  Or just use a small cooler with a removable lid to feed him out of?  Lots of ideas if you think outside the box!
 
 


Re: Sun Chlorella Algae Super Food

Maggie
 

Laura,
 
In addition to the great advice you've already gotten, you may find this file on Immune System Supplements helpful to help explain the "why" of it: 
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


 


Re: Gateway SU-PER Sound Plus powder Joint Support for a horse with Cushings

Maggie
 

Hi Carolyn,
 
To replace the glucosamine, you could try a product called MoveEase, available from MyBesthorse here:  http://mybesthorse.com/home.html  Also available from MyBestHorse is chondroitin sulfate and hyaluronic acid, both joint supplements.  I see that Freckles is 40 and that alone is a good enough reason to give him a joint supplement, but are you having other issues with him?  Does he or has he had laminitis? 
 
Do you have a case history on Freckles?  It really helps us to answer your questions better.  You need to join our sister group ECH8 to fill out the case history, but it should not take long to get approved.  Here's a link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info
 
I also noticed in another post that you wrote:  "My boy has few teeth is insulin resistant and has been recently diagnosed with Cushings, so he is still adjusting to the meds."  Can you expound on that a bit about adjusting to the meds?  Some, but not all horses experience what we call the "pergolide veil" (depression, lack of appetite) when starting on the drug.  To help avoid this, we recommend that you wean the horse on to the drug slowly, starting with 0.25mg for 3 or 4 days and increasing the dose by 0.25mg every 3 or 4 days until you reach the target dose, often 1 mg to start.  Once at the target dose for 3 weeks, you should retest the ACTH to make sure you are the correct dose of pergolide.  Another product that we have found to be very helpful with the pergolide veil is an adaptogen called APF.  Some local tack/feed shops carry it.  It's also available at lots of online places, like Valley Vet:  http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=9a7664ab-4a95-4553-9f58-37c44fdf6a82&gas=APF  and also on their website:  http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html
 
You also wrote:   "It is difficult to know what to do to co-ordinate vitamins, joint supplements, feed and hay pellets."  You're right, it is hard to sort it all out at first.  This group has learned, over the years, that few "bagged" feeds/supplements, even the ones that claim to be safe for IR horses, are actually safe.  We have lots of information on various feeds and supplements and can also help you learn to evaluate a feed or supplement by knowing what to look for on the label.
 
To treat the IR and support the Cushing's (PPID) we recommend a low sugar/starch/fat forage based mineral balanced diet.  We aim for less than 10% combined sugar + starch, and ~4 fat.  Normally, we recommend grass hay with minerals balanced to the hay analysis, plus iodized salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  Since Freckles is 40 with few remaining teeth, do I understand that you are feeding him just soaked pellets with added supplements?  He cannot eat, correct?  There is a product that is completely balanced called Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's).  They are Timothy hay cubes with the minerals already balanced according to Dr Kellon's specifications.  You can add water to them to "fluff" them, but not so much water that you would be pouring it off and losing the minerals that make them balanced. You would only have to add salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  I also see that you mentioned that the soaked pellets are freezing.  You may have the same problems with the wet ODTB's.  Have your tried placing Freckle's feed bucket into, say, an insulated cooler?  Or a heated bucket?  Or just use a small cooler with a removable lid to feed him out of?  Lots of ideas if you think outside the box!
 
Carolyn, we know that there is a LOT of information to absorb here.  Just take it all in in small bites.  We've all been where you are, rather confused and overwhelmed.  But in this group, you have the experience of almost 12,000 people with the same problems that you have.  Our website has a lot of great information about Cushing's and IR.  Here's a link:  http://ecirhorse.org/  You can find the details on how much Vitamin E, ground flax seed etc that you should be adding to your horses diet there too.  Also a great place to send your vet for the latest information on PPID and IR.  There's lots of information on our philosophy of DDT/E (Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, and Exercise) on the website.  Read as much as you can on the website and in the files.  Learning how to search the files and archived messages can really help you to find answers, but never hesitate to ask questions!   Getting a CH filled out for Freckles will help us to answer your questions better and faster. 
 
Thanks for signing your name, location and date of joining.  Once you get your CH filled out, could you add a link to it in your signature also?  It really helps us to find it faster and answer your questions faster.
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


 


Re: Sun Chlorella Algae Super Food

 

Laura,

I think you'll find that all of that will resolve with a mineral balanced diet with added flax for essential fatty acids. We bought a gelding with similar issues years ago and within a few months of being on a balanced diet (minerals, flax, vitamin E) his bronzed coat changed to seal bay and his chronic cough and runny nose cleared up. His previous owner, who had him on a commercial "balancer" had been fighting this cough for months and attributed it to an allergy. 

I have hundreds of hay samples in my database and there are 10's of thousands in the database of Equi-Analytical that clearly show frank copper and zinc deficiencies for nearly every forage listed. Lifelong, chronic copper and zinc deficiency contribute to skin/coat/hoof/immune issues. What tends to aggravate me (pardon my soapbox moment) is that some will finally get around to balancing the diet and then add a tablespoon of a product that claims to be a miracle, then attribute the amazing results to the tablespoon of miracle product, when truth be told, credit should go to the trace mineral repletion.

If the diet has frank deficiencies (highly likely) and relative deficiencies from excessive minerals like iron or manganese, balancing effects are truly miraculous. Some of the things you describe could be PPID-related, of course. Start with the basics (DDT/E) and then adjust accordingly.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director, ECIR, Inc
Missouri, USA - Dec 2005


Re: Haystack Feeds

Carolyn Wahlfeld
 

Linda,


What would I be looking for as a reaction to Alfalfa?  As an alternative, would Timothy pellets be OK.  Freckles is 40 and because of a swollen sheath, I had him checked with a blood test by my vet.  I also had his sheath cleaned by another vet who fond two lima bean sized beans.  Neither vet mentioned complications with Alfalfa and both saw the blood test results and reviewed his diet (ingredients on the Hay Stack special blend bag) and Alfalfa.  It is difficult to know what to do to co-ordinate vitamins, joint supplements, feed and hay pellets.


Your message was very helpful.


Thanks,


Carolyn with Freckles and Boomer

Oak Harbor, WA

2014


Re start prascend

lj friedman
 

I wrote yesterday that I started taking care of a horse that has Cushing's and the owner did not know about it because the barn didnt tell her. Sad I know. So me and the owner think that because this is classic Cushing's lots of peeing the razor neck and the curly for that doesn't leave and sweating that we want to start treating and avoid the testing awesome hassles on the horse. The vet says it's ideal to get blood work first to make sure they're not dealing with anything else and to have a baseline to start with forACTH and then dose accordingly. But he will allow us to treat and he will prescribe. What do you think? My instinct tells me to use the prascend and not the paraglide because a periglide can be unreliable bec it's comes from the different compounding places. Lj friedman san diego nov 2014

Sent from my iPhone


Re: Haystack Feeds

PapBallou@...
 

Carolyn -

Alfalfa is the usual 'go-to' feed for the protein profile, which many PPID horses need.  However, alfalfa can have high levels of starch, which is converted 100% to glucose, which in turn may contribute to an increased insulin.  Many PPID horses have a secondary IR, driven by the PPID.  With these horses, one needs to be cautious because that insulin response may be the tipping point into laminitis.

And, alfalfa may simply be a trigger for laminitis in some horses that have an allergy to it.  I had a mare that couldn't eat it, period.

All that said, if an owner knows what their IR or PPID horse can tolerate, and you have a product that lists its starch guarantee (not just the word 'safe'), then feed what works for you.  My horses, including two IR and two PPID, all get alfalfa pellets as a means to balance the calcium for their diets.  I also use a low carb feed that is very similar the Haystack's product.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


---In EquineCushings@..., <carolynwahlfeld@...> wrote :

Just wanted to ask why your horses can't have alfalfa.  I understand that Alfalfa is good for Cushings


Re: Leaves

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Michelle -
Can you mow or weed eat the grass down to almost nothing? I have done both before - once it's down real low if they nibble on it it's not as bad. I rake up what I have mowed. Large clumps of grass I have dug up. It's a challenge I know - will you soon get killing frosts? That will end the grass for the year. Don't know what to tell you about the leaves since you don't know what kind they are - maybe your horse won't touch them - but you'll have to be watchful.
Good luck!
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014





---- "Michelle Peck Williams fionn@... [EquineCushings]"

We just moved farms to get somewhere that has a dry lot. Unfortunately, last week we had a couple sunny days and some grass grew in there. The one with ALMOST no grass has some trees overhanging the fence (reachable for Mr giraffe neck) that still have green leaves. What happens if Fionn eats those leaves? I have no idea what sort of bushes they are but seems like green is bad for a PPID horse who hasn’t had grass in a year.

If I put his muzzle on him, he’ll probably get it off. That’s what he does. For now, I am just putting him in there for a few minutes at a time, with the muzzle, to get some exercise. The goal is to have him in the dry lot with his slow feed hay net of tested hay, but to be out all day like the other horses, so he can have friends across the fence. Some of you may have been following our story—all was great until old farm decided to shut down the dry lot. So we moved, arriving at the new farm yesterday. I hate moving. There’s just always new stuff to figure out.

This farm has 4 different dry lots, but all grew some grass between when I saw them and yesterday when we moved. Of course, everyone there thinks it is just a “little bit” of grass but I am terrified of it.

I’ve tried asking if there is a skinny horse that can go in there and eat it down. So far I haven’t found one.

On a good note, we spread out his Cinch Chix haynet over the hole where they drop the hay down and that is working GREAT.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list






Re: Sun Chlorella Algae Super Food

Laura Cull
 

Thanks, I completely agree about the diet. I'm currently working with the help of others in this group to achieve that. Just wondered about this product as my mare has battled scratches for over 5 years, had lymphangitis in 2009 and the past two summers had constant runny nose and eye infections. It is only now in hindsight that I see this was all cushing's related. Anything I can do to support her immune system I want to consider.
Will check out the details on the wikipedia site. I'm in Canada and buying it would be a pain anyway. Plus there are good alternatives here. But if it was worth it I would go to the trouble of getting it.
Thanks for your input!
Laura & Hope
Kelowna, BC, Canada
Oct 2014


Gateway SU-PER Sound Plus powder Joint Support for a horse with Cushings

Carolyn Wahlfeld
 

I have used this product for about 5 years and have been really happy.  Now that my horse has ben diagnosed with Cushings/IR I am not certain what to do.  I read that Glucosamine is not advised for horses who are IR.  I could use some advise.


Carolyn with Freckles and Boomer

Eastern WA

2014



COMPLETE JOINT SUPPORT!

 

Recommended to support and maintain healthy joint function. Helps support structural integrity of connective tissues.

 

Powder with a rice hull bases and molasses and apple flavor. All of the same nutrients found in our most popular joint product Su-Per Sound, PLUS Hyaluronic Acid, Chondroitin Sulfate (from Collagen Type II), Bioflavanoids, powerful antioxidants, and more! Also contains a higher amount of MSM than the original formula.


                                                                                                                             

  

Amount to give:  

Give 2 ounces daily for the first two weeks (loading phase). Thereafter give 1-2 ounces daily as maintenance.

  

Ingredients:  

PER 1 OUNCE: Glucosamine HCl - 5,000 mg, MSM - 5,000 mg, Collagen Type II - 1,000 mg, Glycine - 830 mg, Bromelain/Vitamin C - 750 mg each, Vitamin E - 750 IU, Yucca/L-Proline - 500 mg each, Hydroxyproline - 432 mg, Glutamic Acid - 342 mg, Manganese - 300 mg, Alanine - 286 mg, Arginine - 263 mg, DMG/Grape Seed Extract/White Willow/Alpha Lipoic Acid/Magnesium - 250 mg each, Aspartic Acid - 203 mg, Zinc/Superoxide Dismutase - 150 mg each, Lysine - 126 mg, Bioflavanoid Complex - 125 mg, Choline - 100 mg, Leucine - 95 mg, Serine - 89 mg, Valine - 77 mg, Threonine - 67 mg, Phenylalanine - 64 mg, Isoleucine - 52 mg, Hyaluronic Acid - 50 mg, Hydroxylysine - 32 mg, Vitamin B-6 - 30 mg, Vitamin B-2/Vitamin B-1 - 25 mg, Methionine - 24 mg, Histadine - 22 mg, Copper - 15 mg, Tyrosine - 13 mg, Beta Carotene - 5 mg, Biotin - 5 mg, Vitamin B-12 - 2.5 mg, Selenium - 0.5 mg.


Re: Haystack Feeds

Carolyn Wahlfeld
 

Just wanted to ask why your horses can't have alfalfa.  I understand that Alfalfa is good for Cushings/IR horses. I live in WA and Special Blend is the new thing...and I have been relying on it as my main feed with the winter starting. There are few people around that really know what Hay Stack offers.  Local feed stores and Coastal Farm and Ranch buy most pelleted hays and cubes from Standlee.  Do you advise my calling Hay Stack to work out the best feed for my senior horses?


Carolyn with Freckles and Boomer

Eastern WA

2014   


Re: Haystack Feeds

Stephanie Stout
 

The Haystack Feed Mill is very local to me, and I know the people that own it also. I have been feeding Haystack feeds(they make the Low Carb/Low Fat, the Special Blend(higher fat), Beet Pulp, Alfalfa Pellets, etc) and have always loved them. I don't feed any of their special blend grains to my IR/Cushings horse since they are alfalfa based and he can't have any alfalfa. But, I feed them to my other horses and use their BP all the time. I've never seen any mold, bad bags, etc but I do also get it right off the truck from the mill so it is very fresh so I'm lucky that way. They use their own home-grown hay for the feeds.

They are good feeds without the fillers that other feeds have. My horses love their products!
Stephanie
Oregon 
Oct 2014


Leaves

fionn@...
 

We just moved farms to get somewhere that has a dry lot.  Unfortunately, last week we had a couple sunny days and some grass grew in there.  The one with ALMOST no grass has some trees overhanging the fence (reachable for Mr giraffe neck) that still have green leaves.  What happens if Fionn eats those leaves?  I have no idea what sort of bushes they are but seems like green is bad for a PPID horse who hasn’t had grass in a year.

If I put his muzzle on him, he’ll probably get it off.  That’s what he does.  For now, I am just putting him in there for a few minutes at a time, with the muzzle, to get some exercise.  The goal is to have him in the dry lot with his slow feed hay net of tested hay, but to be out all day like the other horses, so he can have friends across the fence.   Some of you may have been following our story—all was great until old farm decided to shut down the dry lot.  So we moved, arriving at the new farm yesterday.  I hate moving.  There’s just always new stuff to figure out.  

This farm has 4 different dry lots, but all grew some grass between when I saw them and yesterday when we moved.  Of course, everyone there thinks it is just a “little bit” of grass but I am terrified of it. 

I’ve tried asking if there is a skinny horse that can go in there and eat it down.  So far I haven’t found one.

On a good note, we spread out his Cinch Chix haynet over the hole where they drop the hay down and that is working GREAT.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list







Re: Prascend

Nancy C
 

Hi Carol

It sounds like a win-win situation, but you'd need to check with your vet on legality. There could b a lot of variance, state-to-state.

Ethlyn - Giving away pergolide could be construed as dosing a controlled medication by a lay person.  Only licensed vets who have seen the patient can write the dose and scripts. 

I may have simplified this too much but know our veterinary professional members will chime in if I have over-simplified.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





Re: Sun Chlorella Algae Super Food

Nancy C
 

Hi Laura

A lot of us use Spirulina on top of our balanced diet for anti-histamine help

http://equine.uckele.com/Resources-Articles/cat/drkellon/post/Spirulina/

 



As Kathleen has said, you need to balance the diet first.  For example, spirulina will not help my gelding with skin issues if his underlying system is not supported by adequate Copper and Zinc, balanced to total dietary intake.

The above article also talks about Spirulina vs Chlorella.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <katmando@...> wrote :

The bottom line is that no supplement will be as effective as a balanced diet; making sure that nutrient requirements are met and mineral deficiencies are resolved. 

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director, ECIR, Inc.
Missouri, USA - Dec 2005



 


Re: Haystack Feeds

Carolyn Wahlfeld
 

I needed to add to my post:

 

Carolyn/Freckles

Eastern WA

2014


Re: Sun Chlorella Algae Super Food

 

Laura,

There is a reasonably unbiased review of Chlorella on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorella

There is a great deal of variability in the end product depending on how it is cultivated. Further attention needs to be paid to how it was processed as the plant cell wall is tough and resists digestion by mammals. The bottom line is that no supplement will be as effective as a balanced diet; making sure that nutrient requirements are met and mineral deficiencies are resolved. 

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director, ECIR, Inc.
Missouri, USA - Dec 2005



 

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