Date   

Re: leg wraps

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Linda,

This is meant for horses who experience cold-induced hoof pain. Due to previous damage, they are highly sensitive to drops in temps and respond by getting extremely footsore even when diets are tight and ACTH is well controlled.

Anytime the temps drop in to the 40's (and lower) these compromised horses will start to have cold-induced pain so that's when the wraps need to be applied to help them avoid the vaso-constriction and blood shunting that naturally occurs.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Taurine

gypsylassie
 

You could try emailing Joan at My Best Horse.
Laura K, Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


leg wraps

lklajavic@...
 

"Protection against the cold is therefore the first step in combating winter related hoof pain. Horses should be protected from high winds, rain and snow.  They should be blanketed, wear leg wraps to warm the lower legs, and boots, preferably lined. Effective lower leg wraps include standard polos and cottons, leg warmers or even fleece lined shipping boots." This is part of an article that Dr. Kellon wrote. My question is, at what temperature should wraps be applied? My horse is a 22 year old well controlled PPID gelding. He has never had any hoof issues or bouts of laminitis.

Linda and Mud

Michigan

2009



Re: Prascend

PapBallou@...
 

LJ -

Prascend is pergolide mesylate, but is manufactured and packaged differently, and typically has more potency than compounded pergolide which is also pergolide mesylate.  That potency difference between the two may range from a lot to basically just the same.  The stability (shelf life) of Prascend over compounded is superior, but that doesn't mean that you can't thoughtfully use compounded.  Purchase just a month's worth in capsule form, and keep in the fridge door.  Compounded pergolide is mixed and packaged by a compounding pharmacy.  Whether they keep the components on the shelf for a long time, or order in small batches is always a question, too.

An uncontrolled PPID horse is at high risk for IR, so the safe s/s diet is important.  Get the PPID controlled, and many, probably most PPID horses will normalize their insulin.  But, since PPID is a somewhat predictably unpredictable disease, the level of control of the insulin may vary even if the ACTH is well within normal ranges.

So the diet is one of those - well, that depends.  You need to test ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin, (at least leptin initially) and see how the given horse responds to his PPID treatment. 

Linda and Pap Ballou
Western NV
May 2004


Which ACTH test?

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi all,


Sorry if this has been already posted or is in the file section, but I couldn't find it(probably operator error!). I'm getting ready to re-test King's ACTH and Insulin. I know I need the ACTH Endogenous test(right?), but what test do I want for the Insulin too? Is the ACTH & Insulin bundle(for $40 from Cornell) right, or not because it is not Endogenous?


Sorry for the basic question, but want to make sure I get it right. Thanks!!!

Stephanie

Oregon

Oct 2014


Re: Best compounding pharmacy - Pergolide

Banjo Hartung
 

Thank you for your response, I will take a look at the link!

Im just looking for a more affordable option, if there is one.

Thank you,

Banjo in Southern California
Joined in Sept 2014


Re: Prascend

lj friedman
 

Thank you for the replies. My questions are : am i understanding correctly that peroglide is superior to prascend?And am I also understanding that if my horse does not have IR then low starch low sugar feeding is not indicated and does not help the Cushing horse if there is no IR?Thanks LJ Friedman San Diego November 2014

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Re: Taurine

peggyomdahl
 

I read a article written by Dr Kellon stating that taurine has been shown to help with IR in recent studies.  So I got some from my best horse but I don't know how much to give.

I think I joined in 2004 but am not sure

Peggy in Minnesota


Re: Previcox dose

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

"I did a search on "previcox and gabapentin in horses" on yahoo----there are some other people that have done what you are doing"

Thanks, Sally, that info. Sometimes I am not so good with the searches, but I am going to try again. So far Cory seems to be doing well with this regimen, but I am concerned with the Previcox. I am hoping to wean him off of that soon, and still have him exercising himself more. I would like to take him out for walks, but he is still so gimpy. Still, I know more exercise would be good. I guess I wonder what "don't force a laminitic horse to move" means exactly. If he sees that I have left the gate open to muck out he moves with gimpy alacrity to get there before I close it. Is that damaging his feet more since they are already eight months into this laminitic episode? So complicated.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: Poor Man's Pea Gravel

ferne fedeli
 

I've used Dry Den in my stalls for several years.  My vet recommended it.  It is sometimes like walking on marbles (for us humans) the first thing, so I spray water all over it as soon as I turn the guys out and when they come back into their stalls at night, it is somewhat softer.  Soon becomes sawdust...
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/201


On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 9:45 AM, PapBallou@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

For quite a few years, one of the recommendations for a foot sore horse to find a level of comfort has been to allow them access to pea gravel to stand in.  The small, smooth shapes of the gravel allow the horse to 'squish' the feet into the gravel, finding just the right foot position for comfort.  The small gravel also provides support in a way that many horses find relief from.


Pea gravel can be expensive, and may not be readily available in some parts of the country.


Last night when I went out to feed midnight chow, and to wrap Pap's legs with his Boomer bandages (he is now stalled at night due to blindness), I noticed how he was standing in his shavings.  Actually, not shavings, but pine pellets (Dry Den).  I changed to them yesterday from shavings for bedding.  He had wiggled his feet into the thick layer of pellets, not unlike what you see with pea gravel.


Granted, the pellets will soften when wet, but those are easy to remove with cleaning, and can also be easily replenished.


Just an idea for those looking for a fairly easy and not so expensive option to contribute to foot soreness relief.


Linda

Western NV

May 2004



Re: rice bran

Lorna Cane
 


>PPI? Please explain....

I think what was meant was PPID.

Please help us by signing your posts.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc





 


Re: rice bran

abbypeaches@...
 


PPI? Please explain....


Re: sources of ODTB in So Cal.

loes <loes1@...>
 

Lindsey:

I am Valeree's barn mate.  I probably do not need to re-order ODTB cubes for another couple of weeks.  However, Gentry at Fox Feed,  Acton mentioned before that she was going to stock some bags, I would give her a call and see if she has any on hand or can order you some.   Hemme in Lancaster carries them also.   I would call before you take a drive over.   If all else fails,  I would be happy to sell you a couple of bags. 

When I switched to ODTB cubes I did it slowly,  My Romke loves them but not all horses do.  Romke has been Cushings for over 11 years and IR for over 9, he is on a strict ODTB cubes diet plus I had a consult with Dr. Kellon for the supplements (in addition to the standard supplements, he needed help with his immune system ad his inability to make muscle.  He is High Risk IR but has never had any sign of laminitis.  

Loes w/ Romke, TJ, Daisy & Dreamer
So. CA 2007 or 2008 



On Nov 24, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Valeree Smith shumist@... [EquineCushings] wrote:

 

Lindsey,

Fox Feed, Acton.  list.

Valeree, GD, Jake, & Annie
ECHK Support
SoCal, 09/03




 


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Re: Teddy - 28 yro Morgan/Quarter X - Pain/Inflammation

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Josey,

From our Files,here is a link to update your case history:

Yahoo! Groups

 




Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc







 








 





Re: direction needed please

Sara Gooch
 


 Hello Julie,

Not a moderator, but I do have a PSSM/IR/PPID mare. And I apologize to the moderators for being OT.

 There is a EPSM/PSSM  Yahoo group that can give you help and direction. It's similar to this Cushings group.  You mentioned that you were out of Vitamin E.....I've found that for my type 2-PSSM mare keeping her on 3 - 4 grams of vitamin E helps keep her moving freely. And, the new hay might be the source of the problem. You might want to soak it to see if that helps the tying up issues. Lots of info on the EPSM/PSSM site.  

Good luck.


Sara

NE Calif. 2011  


Re: Prascend and pergolide

Nancy C
 

Hi LJ

I have switched one for one between Prascend and compound.  You have to watch symptoms.  See Pergolide 101 file and scale of symptoms in this doc:

I have also cut the tablet in half.  BI recommends not to cut any more than that, although members have of their own volition, because they still experienced the veil with 0.50 mg.

I have not used Prascend for some time but there was a scoring mark to cut in half.
Pergolide

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

Is it okay to switch between the two meds?

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Re: Prascend and pergolide

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lj,

Although Prascend and compounded pergolide contain the same active ingredient, the formulations are different and there may be some differences in the potency. If you switch back and forth you risk pergolide veil issues on a recurring basis, if the horse is prone to that side effect. Unfortunately, as with all medications, it is an unknown how each individual will fare. As with any medication, you are generally better off choosing which formulation to use and sticking with that for consistency's sake.

The Prascend is scored so you can break the caplets in halves. To give a .25mg dose, we recommend dissolving a 1/2 tablet in a small amount of water in a syringe and dosing 1/2 of the total liquid then refrigerating the rest for the next day. Repeat. For .75 mg, give 1/2 tablet and 1/2 syringe. Not convenient but doable for a few days to get to the dose you need.

PPID is a progressive condition that impacts the immune system, tendons/ligaments, muscles, hair coat as well as the hooves. It will drive secondary IR that will not be controllable thru dietary management if the ACTH is not well controlled. Vaccine reactions, allergies, muscle loss, heat/cold intolerance, skin fragility, impaired wound healing, laminitis, possible seizures are some of the effects of untreated PPID. How soon, how severe is an unknown as each individual progresses at his/her own rate.

How the ringbone issues will affect the horse will have a great deal to do with the trim and whether it is high or low ringbone. Once the feet are corrected, you may find that the horse is much more comfortable and stable. Xrays, if they are available, would be quite helpful in assessing this portion of the equation.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

Is it okay to switch between the two meds? For example let's say you had one month of prascend and then next month pergolide? Also if using prascend and knowing that the active ingredient is fixed and more reliable,how can you titrate starting at one quarter and working up to a full 1 mg? I know that you're not supposed to split the tablets but I'm wondering if anyone has split them , How you split that and if it was successful? LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

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Re: Prascend

Nancy C
 

Hi LJ


Data.....Check out the pergolide dbase in the FILES section for a good review of doses and how horses are treated.

Cushing’s cannot be treated by low ESC and Starch feed.  Neuron’s fail in PPID.  They are gone.    Pergolide replaces the lost neurons.  To not treat PPID means a huge risk for laminitis, increased infections, sensitivities to bugs and worms, loss of muscle, inability to work, generally feeling crappy, more. Many man case history examples here on that. Read more about the physiology, diagnosis and treatment of PPID on www.ecirhorse.org

If the horse is also IR, he needs to be managed with mineral balanced low ESC and Starch diet. Can also read about the physiology, diagnosis and treatment of IR on ecirhorse.org.

Dr Kellon’s proceedings from the 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference go into great detail. Mineral Nutrition and IR may prove helpfu to you

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/no-laminitis-conference/2013-proceedings-recordings-table-of-contents

Scroll down to:
ECIR 2013 Proceedings Kellon Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance

We have had the following reported by the members of this group:

Prascend did not control their horses ACTH
The ACTH improved when switching pharmacies
The ACTH improved when going onto Prascend
The ACTH improved when increasing dosage beyond what BI recommends as the optimum dose of pergolide (3-5mg)
The ACTH improved when changing dose delivery (ie, AM or PM or split or not split)

Some of these reports have been verified by back-up blood work, others are only based on view of symptoms. There are probably other variations of above that I hope others will add but you may get the idea.  If you want to read more about experiences, we have reports in the files:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%201%20A%20a%20Prascend%20Experiences/

Your vet’s experience will be influenced on the details of the diagnosis, the compounder used, the form of compound used, among other potential confounding factors.

ECIR group has been discussing the best way to address pergolide since 2002. How to address potential side effects (titration, use of adaptogens) has also been addressed since then.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: Insulin resistance (IR) is the failure of insulin sensitive cells to respond to “normal” levels of insulin.  See E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

I was looking for actual data and that is very helpful to me.
Sent from my iPhone

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Re: What happens if you don't treat?

baymare1@...
 

Hi,

The cushings prob won't be the direct cause of illness/death, but complications due to the disease can do that, not to mention cause the horse to suffer. The pergolide is the gold standard and it really works once you find the correct dosage.

I use Thriving Pets in Colorado for compounded pergolide, it's more than half the cost of the Prascend (which is horribly expensive), your vet needs to write an rx for it, though.

Angela and James

Escondido, Ca.

2007 or thereabouts.


Re: Prascend and pergolide

lj friedman
 

Is it okay to switch between the two meds? For example let's say you had one month of prascend and then next month pergolide? Also if using prascend and knowing that the active ingredient is fixed and more reliable,how can you titrate starting at one quarter and working up to a full 1 mg? I know that you're not supposed to split the tablets but I'm wondering if anyone has split them , How you split that and if it was successful? LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

Sent from my iPhone

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