Date   

Re: Just saying hello

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Emily,

It is also possible that the descent has been there for some time and occurred gradually over time. Happens a lot.

The worsening of her arthritis may actually have been laminitis starting rather than an arthritis issue - how was arthritis diagnosed initially? The dose of Previcox (canine firocoxib) she is on is extremely high - it would appropriate for a 1300lb horse and Coco is a 13.3hh POA. Has she been on this for several years for her arthritis or is this something new? Firocoxib is not without risks, esp at doses above FDA approval and when used for more than 2 weeks. See here for more info:

http://www.drugs.com/pro/equioxx.html

Although many vets prscribe Previcox instead of the equine version Equioxx due to the substantial cost savings, it is difficult to properly dose equines using the Previcox as it is formulated specifically for dogs, whose dosing requirements are substantially higher than those of horses.


Can you divide her daily hay ration into a few small mesh hay nets and distribute them around her turnout area? That way, it will take her quite a bit longer to finish up her hay allotment and she doesn't have an empty stomach for as long a period of time.


Look forward to seeing the xrays and test results, Pics of her feet would be good too.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Testing

Heather Leonard
 

Hi,


Recently, I had some body work done on my horse and it was suggested that I evaluate her for Cushings.  I had started to suspect that she may be showing signs indicative of this disease.  I want to make sure that I test her correctly.  The body worker suggested that I run an ACTH/Insulin, Leptin and Glucose.  Are those the correct tests to run?  Any others that should be run?  Plan is to send the blood to Cornell.  I just read all the files in the files section that I thought pertained to running blood work, but may have missed some.  Just wanted to make sure that there wasn't anything special that needed to be done when the blood was pulled and/or sent.  Am I correct that horses do not need to be fasted and can have free choice hay up until the blood test?  If on beet pulp, 4 hours post meal is ok correct?


Thank you!


Heather 

Mass

2000



Re: Pain Relievers

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi sally,

Abscess tends to be only one foot, seems to come on overnight, pounding pulse in only that foot, will make the horse 3-legged lame and can be worse than any bout of laminitis. Sometimes there is swelling in the pastern/fetlock.

As awful as it is to watch, the best thing to do with an abscess is to poultice or soak to help draw it out. Numotizine is a good one:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=4fa01f0e-3a8a-4ffe-a694-ab474ac070cf

Any NSAIDs that you use for pain (which may not work anyway) will only slow down and prolong the process. Movement can be helpful to get it mobilized and draining. Once it bursts the pain relief is usually immediate.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Prascend

muriel covington
 

Thanks for your support.   Will follow your advise about diet/supplements and make necessary changes.  I am not using the same vets that prescribed Pergolide as they could not help me with the side effects she was having - severe muscular/skeletal pain to the point we were ready to put her down.  (Attempted to use Prascend on 2 secparate occasions several months apart and even in a "non- founder" state had same out come). The vet that is seeing Emma now is more open to trying things like adaptagens etc. (holistic/traditional).  He was just out today and wants me to maintain Emma on the cyproheptadine and Evitex, previcox, ocotea oil, traumeel, Full stride, KLPP (probiotic) because she is doing so good.  He drew a thyroid test because that had never been done.  His advise sounds like he is already thinking the same way you are - that we will get another ACTH and insulin level in a couple of months and go from there.  Emma now able to go out (with grazing muzzle) for an hour in an area the vet approved (virtually no grass present). 

 

Muriel & Emma

Elgin, IL (Dec. 2014)

 

 


Re: Pentosan safe for IR & PPID?

palomino.1982@...
 

Hi Stephanie!

Here is a post from Dr. Kellon Jan 2012:

Yes, it's safe, although would stop Jiaogulan, if using it, for 2 to 3 days before and 2 to 3 days after to avoid worsening any coagulation issues.

This drug is *not* FDA approved in this country. It is similar to Adequan but has some properties different from Adequan:

http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/pdf/pentosan_polysulfate.pdf

Wedgewood Pharmacy has the exclusive compounding rights for the stable at room temperature drug, but there may be other compounders offering it without that stability claim.
__________________________________________________________________

Took me a couple tries on 'search'...so likely a Neo error and not operator error!
Neo continues to toss that proverbial monkey wrench around!

Susan
EC Primary Response
So Cal 2007





Pentosan safe for IR & PPID?

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi All,


I tried searching the previous messages, but I think I'm having operator error. So, sorry is this has already been discussed, but is Pentosan(Pentosan Polysulfate Sodium AQ 250mg/mL from Wedgewood via IM) safe for horses newly diagnosed with IR & PPID? He's on 4mg, upping to 4.5mg this week, of Pergolide along with his APF. 


Thanks so much!

Stephanie & King

Oregon

Member since Oct 2014


Complete diet: NOW:Proper PPID protocol

palomino.1982@...
 

Controlling the PPID is going to be your only long-lasting, true solution. This means perioditic  adjustment of  pergolide to maintain ACTH in Cornell's mid-range value.

I am only comfortable with your ...or is the dentist's approach............IF you definitely do blood work 3 weeks after Jesse has been on 1 mg pergolide/Prascend.

Please titrate when starting pergolide: 0.25mg  3-4 days, bump up to 0.50 mg 3-4 days, then to 0.75mg 3-4 days, then to full 1mg dose.

Hope the vet ( dentist ) is knowledgable  and up to date with accurate science- proven  treatment protocols that address proper dose adjustments of pergolide to keep ACTH within normal range.


APF ( Auburn Labs ) is a God sent for horses when starting pergolide, as it minimizes the pergolide veil- going off feed, disinterested /depressed.  ( Why is Neo underlining my text????)


The longer the ACTH  remains elevated the greater the risk that Jesse will come down with laminitis from the excess cortisol and the undercontrolled IR that is silently damaging her feet and other body systems.

Time is of the essence in preventing laminitis.

Susan
EC Primary Response
So Cal 2007







Re: International Volunteers Day

Leigh Jacobs
 

It is to this group of wonderful, knowledgeable people, that I have to give thanks.  Ace would not be here if not for the information that you all have shared.  And Shadow is avoiding the dreaded laminitis (so far!) thanks to that information.  I give thanks to my vet and boss who kept saying that I needed to look into the group.  If not for him, I would have lost Ace.  My continuing hope is that this group can continue to help new, desperate owners educate themselves and the vets out there that do not know, understand, or are so swamped in information that they lose sight of the goal:  A live horse, living comfortably and for many of us still capable of taking us on adventures.
Leigh, Ace and Shadow
Tucson, AZ
2011


On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 10:59 AM, "windybriars@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 



Here is a quote from Dr. Kellon that pretty much says it all:

 “You know those credit card commercials that run through a bunch of things with price tags and end with a moment that's "priceless"? That is truly how I feel every time a new member comes here frazzled or wired and strung out after being told their horse, pony, donkey or mule should be euthanized and then later tells us about the light coming back in their eyes, those first voluntary steps out of a stall, the first spontaneous trot, buck or canter or when the feet start to concave and a hundred other positive signs of getting well. Most of all, it's about the animals.”


Fine.

Now I'm reduced to tears.

Of joy.


But thanks, Jaini, for reminding us of her words.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  
http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


 





 



 









 



 



Re: Prascend

Nancy C
 

Hi Muriel

IF you go to Cornell's endocrinology department, you'll see there are two TRH assays, one with two sample, one with three. Your vet may have been following their recs which say teh third draw is unnecessary, vs EEG (Tufts) recs.

I can see your thinking regarding the 65 ACTH in the fall but the 118 you had pre-TRH administration is high, as Lavinia has said.

The MSM @ 4 grams and Glucosamine 5 grams in the full stride maybe helping but it's not a huge amount.  The cyproheptadine has really no research showing it works.  Evitex works for a while on symptoms. My money is on the previcox your vet is prescribing.

So back to square one, a horse who may need pergolide but cannot seem to tolerate it.  We've had a couple of horses who have had very bad reactions to Prascend and when switched to 0.25 mg of compound, were able to titrate on successfully. The change in one horse in particular was profound.

Based on my own experiences and those of more than a few others, horses on a low Sugar and Starch diet (if IR) with minerals blanced, adequate vit E and selenium, salt, omega 3 and 6 via flax seems to do better transitioning on to the drug when they need it.  IOW, no veil.  Using adaptogens can also help. 

Since we are out of seasonal rise, and assuming she is doing well, if she were here, I'd be working to support via diet recs used here.  Once well out of winter - ie, May - I'd retest ACTH.  Is she showed clear PPID, I'd try compound pergolide with adaptogen (APF - Auburn Labs)

If she is truly on of the four in 100+ who cannot tolerate this drug as outlined in the Prascend label, you may have no choices.  I'd be trying this one more time though, because to have Cushing's go unchecked is not pretty and we've seen so many great outcomes with the DDT+E recs from this group.  Been here a long time and I may be not remembering well, but I cannot remember one horse who, if followed the DDT+E protocol first outlined by Maggie for you, could not adjust to the pergolide and be more healthy as a result. I hope Dr Kellon corrects me if I am wrong.

I know this is a hard place to be Muriel.  Hope it works out for Emma.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Hear Drs Kellon and Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/no-laminitis-conference





My husband and I are assuming there is nothing more to be done then but to enjoy her for as long as we can and realize that the Evitex and cyptohepdatine she is currently on may only work for awhile.  Appreciate the info.I have found from this site.

 

Sincerely,

Muriel & Emma

Elgin, IL 


Re: Complete Diet

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Lj,

>Because this horse has classis cushings, our plan, and vets idea,  is to treat with pergolide/prascend and then test 4 weeks later for acth and IR etc etc. that seems quite reasonable to me. 

Susan,one of our Primary Response members said this:

When I met Jesse- he not only 'looks' PPID but IR as well.....hard crest, dropped top line, pot belly, goopy eyes and fat pads.  Ribs are easily identified, so would say that he is  NOT over weight.

If Jesse were mine,given the same circumstances I would treat him as if he were IR.
What we feed our IR horses is totally healthy and desireable for our non-IR horses ,as well.
If he is not IR after you get your tests done,all you will have done is have him on a balanced diet, which is the best for optimal health.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: International Volunteers Day

Lorna Cane
 




Here is a quote from Dr. Kellon that pretty much says it all:

 “You know those credit card commercials that run through a bunch of things with price tags and end with a moment that's "priceless"? That is truly how I feel every time a new member comes here frazzled or wired and strung out after being told their horse, pony, donkey or mule should be euthanized and then later tells us about the light coming back in their eyes, those first voluntary steps out of a stall, the first spontaneous trot, buck or canter or when the feet start to concave and a hundred other positive signs of getting well. Most of all, it's about the animals.”


Fine.

Now I'm reduced to tears.

Of joy.


But thanks, Jaini, for reminding us of her words.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc



 






 




 









 




 


Re: International Volunteers Day

PapBallou@...
 

AMEN!

Pap Ballou


Re: Complete diet

lj friedman
 

Because this horse has classis cushings, our plan, and vets idea,  is to treat with pergolide/prascend and then test 4 weeks later for acth and IR etc etc. that seems quite reasonable to me.  lj friedman san diego nov 2014.  money is very tight and I see no reason to wait for cushings results and see no harm being done with this approach


Re: International Volunteers Day

janieclougher@...
 


I also want to add my profound thanks to all the volunteers. This group saved my horses' lives.

To ECIR founder Robin Siskel, and ECIR Yahoo Co-owner, Dr Eleanor Kellon, thank you, thank you, thank you for the vision and freely given years of volunteer hours.

Here is a quote from Dr. Kellon that pretty much says it all:

 “You know those credit card commercials that run through a bunch of things with price tags and end with a moment that's "priceless"? That is truly how I feel every time a new member comes here frazzled or wired and strung out after being told their horse, pony, donkey or mule should be euthanized and then later tells us about the light coming back in their eyes, those first voluntary steps out of a stall, the first spontaneous trot, buck or canter or when the feet start to concave and a hundred other positive signs of getting well. Most of all, it's about the animals.”

Robin and Eleanor, you are both the bee's knees! And I am repeating Lorna's words, because they are so true:


I can think of some - relentless,unfaltering,non-judgmental, objective,generous,brilliant,intuitive,tenacious - but I was right in the first place.
Words can't begin to uncover the entire picture.


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 









 




 


Re: Complete diet

Nancy C
 

Hi lj

Agree assumptions are not good. Get the blood work done.

If there is any question as to IR status do not use Dr Kellon's Senior diet.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003


2013 Proceedings & Recordings Table of Contents

 









Re: International Volunteers Day

Nancy C
 


Amen, Lorna.

Thank you, Dr Kellon

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Hear Drs Kellon and Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

2013 Proceedings & Recordings Table of Contents

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :




I can think of some - relentless,unfaltering,non-judgmental, objective,generous,brilliant,intuitive,tenacious - but I was right in the first place.
Words can't begin to uncover the entire picture.
******







 




 


Re: International Volunteers Day

 

I agree - we should be thanking Dr. Kellon for helping us help our horses.  Words cannot express how grateful I am.

Jean and Amber
in South Carolina
member since August 2004 (10 years)


Re: Prascend

muriel covington
 

Thanks for your reply.  Reason I started thinking about the initial test - Looked up the protocol for TRH testing from tufts university vet clinic trials and that is how they said the test should be done.  Fasting, then 10 minutes and then 30 minutes after the injection.  You are correct, her initial ACTH was high I was just trying to understand her severe reactions to pergolide.  Someone on this site mentioned "maybe she doesn't have Cushings"  so I started looking into how test is to be done and there were a lot of commnets about false test results.  My husband and I are assuming there is nothing more to be done then but to enjoy her for as long as we can and realize that the Evitex and cyptohepdatine she is currently on may only work for awhile.  Appreciate the info.I have found from this site.

 

Sincerely,

Muriel & Emma

Elgin, IL 


Re: International Volunteers Day

Cindy McGinley
 

   Yep. We love you!
 
- Cin, Dare, Saffron, Henry, Lady B, Deirdre, Lily, & Ted
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2014 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] International Volunteers Day
 



 
>Thank Dr. Kellon, but I think you are the one we >should all be thanking for all the valuable information >you share with horse owners all over the world.
 
Absolutely!
I've been looking for the words to say how grateful we are,and how grateful for our horses we are, to know you.
It's an understatement to say you are in the horse's corner. Every horse'scorner.
Words can't begin to describe what that means,where you are concerned,Dr. Kellon.
I can think of some - relentless,unfaltering,non-judgmental, objective,generous,brilliant,intuitive,tenacious - but I was right in the first place.
Words can't begin to uncover the entire picture.

With all my heart , and for horses everywhere, thank you.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy. 

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


 
 


Flaxseed

newleaffarm@...
 

Would the benefits be just as good to use a flaxseed oil softgel capsule added to the mixture for instead of grinding flaxseed?  I believe it comes in 1000 and 1200mg.  If so, what would be the equivalent to 2 oz of flaxseed ground?  

Mary, TX 

2014

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