Date   

Re: ivermectin for encysted strongyles?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Erin,

Ivermectin won't target the encysted strongyles directly. It kills the egg laying adults. Then some of the encysted strongyles, if there are any, will emerge to take their place. Dose again to eliminate this 2nd batch. Then do the cycle again to catch any stragglers.

FEC doesn't test for encysted strongyles. Are your three turned out together? If so, need to deworm all of them on the same schedule/time so they don't pass things off one to the other.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: ivermectin for encysted strongyles?

Lorna Cane
 

In Message 182434,Dr. Kellon says,"For encysted Strongyles, use either Quest or regular dose ivermectin for 3 treatments, three weeks apart. "


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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Re: Testing

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Heather - You are correct: ACTH, insulin, leptin and glucose.  ACTH pulled into a purple-topped tube; others into serum separator tubes. All spun within 4 hours, separated, frozen overnight then sent to Cornell.  You are also correct in that it is non-fasting; have hay in front of them up until the blood test; and test 4 hours after the first meal of the day.  If they have free-choice hay all night, then no need to wait the 4 hours. 

Let us know how it turns out :)

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <hleonard.bci@...> wrote :

Hi,


Recently, I had some body work done on my horse and it was suggested that I evaluate her for Cushings. ....


Heather 

Mass

2000



ivermectin for encysted strongyles?

chf1752@...
 

My girls are due for their annual treatment for encysted strongyles. I was a bit surprised to see ivermectin recommend as a treatment, since I've only seen moxidectin or fenbendazole recommended. I see there's some concern about the fenbendazole causing ulceration to the colon, which is something I definitely want to avoid. But 2 of my horses are minis, so Quest isn't an option for them.


Where is the evidence that Ivermectin is actually effective in targeting encysted strongyles?


I've read through the 2013 deworming guidelines, but I didn't see any links to proof of ivermectin's efficacy for this purpose.


Bella received a dose of Quest in June. Does that mean she's covered for the year for encysted strongyles? Before Quest her FEC was 80 strongyles.  After Quest her FEC was 1 strongyle.


Erin

ME

2014



Re: Prascend

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Janna - Evitex (chaste tree berry or Vitex agnus-castus extract) will certainly help with some of the symptoms of PPID, especially shedding issues.  However, it does not appear to control the production of ACTH and some other hormones involved.  Most horses that are started on Evitex end up being put on pergolide to control PPID.  Pergolide is still the only medication that can help replace the action of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Anecdotal evidence is showing that control of PPID in earlier stages helps slow or even stop the excessive growth in the pituitary that is responsible for the high output of hormones occurring in PPID.

There is a good explanation here: 

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/physiology-of-ppid-cushing-s-disease

 



Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <tjburdett2@...> wrote :

I see you have started your mare on Evitex.  What is your thoughts of the product
--

Janna Burdett


Re: Prascend

Janna Burdett <tjburdett2@...>
 

I see you have started your mare on Evitex.  What is your thoughts of the product

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:53 PM, muriel318@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

I have a 23 year old female lipazzaner.  She was diagnosed with Cushings this past spring.  Vet prescribed prascend 1/2 tablet once a day.  She never went off her feed but she had terrible side effects.  Lethagic, depression,

SEVERE muscular/skeleton pain (yes, the package insert did mention that about 4 horses out of 122 had muscular skeletal pain).  She could barely move.  Kept her on the medication for 20 some days and the side effects just got worse as time went on.  Tried to explain what happened to the vet but was told they had never heard of such a thing and said to keep her on it!  I didn't because she was miserable.  3 days after she was off this drug, she was her old self.  The only problem she had at this time was that she had not shed out all her winter coat.  Started her on a product called Full Stride by Pureform for cushing horses that has high amounts of chromium etc.  She shed out the rest of winter coat and looked beautiful.  Fall came and she got laminitis for the first time.  My fault for not understanding hormone issues and sugar increasing in the grass in fall.  Anyway, had the same vet group come but a different vet.  Was reprimanded for taking her off prescend. Did not believe side effects she had earler in spring.  They insisted I try it again but start at 1/4 tablet a day graduallly increasing it to the 1/2 tablet.  "Emma" just kept getting worse.  To make a long story short, she started swaying from one front foot to the other tapping the tip of her hoof on the ground.  All day long she swayed and tapped.  She could not turn in her stall.  Was told to increase Prescend to 1/2 tablet.  Had been on 1/4 tablet for over 4 weeks, 3 days after increasing, she would not move.  Stood in the same spot in her stall going on 4 days.  Could hardly walk, could not turn and was practically falling on us.  Was talking to vet this entire time.  Was ready to put her down but because of the spring experience with prascend decided to wean her off and see what happened.  10 days later, she could walk and turn again and stopped the toe tapping and swaying!!  I contacted a more holistic vet and have her on cyproheptadine and evitex, previcox, full stride, a probiotic (KLPP), ocotea oil, traumeel.  This ordeal started Sept. 20th.  Today, 12/04/14, I let her out in a larger paddock for the first time.  She trotted a little and moved better than ever!  Please be aware that any drug can have side effects. Horses, just like people are unique. What might work for one may not work for another.  This experience was very upsetting because of the failure of the vets to recognize my horse could not tolerate this drug and needed something else.  I will contact the company because this was not a pergolide veil that was going to pass.  I just wanted to get this out there in case someone else has a similar experience.  Do not put your horse down until you take them off and see if they will get better with a different plan.  Thanks.  




--
Janna Burdett
770-971-4327 (home)
404-863-5652 (cell)


Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

Elva J Mico
 

On 12/11/2014 4:10 AM, kerry.isherwood@yahoo.com [EquineCushings] wrote:
Thank you so much, ladies, for your swift assurances that my gelding
is indeed not the outlier of leptin resistance that I fretted over.
He is, in fact, in good company it seems! :)

I find it very interesting that my 20yo mare--the quintessential IR
model whose fat pads have their own fat pads--had a leptin of only
4.19 at her highest, while my svelte gelding, who has many times been
mistaken for a Thoroughbred, is in perfect body condition w/o a trace
of any visible fat on him, yet has a leptin of >8.
My Tennessee Walker, Whiskey, has a leptin reading of 16.....I have not yet figured out how to lower it.

Elva and Angel Satin
2004/NM


Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Lorna Cane
 


Now here's the Database link:


http://tinyurl.com/m6syzt4



>And thanks to everyone who has contributed, and who continues to contribute, to our Database. 

It is such valuable information, and allows us to be the best advocates for our horses.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Lorna Cane
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon,


> We have roughly twice as many horses on Prascend in the low dose  


categories (22% vs 10%) but 215 out of the total 268 horses are on 


compounded drugs.  Also, some of the high doses horses are on 


compounded after switching from Prascend (or Permax) because the cost 


was prohibitive otherwise.




And thanks to everyone who has contributed, and who continues to contribute, to our Database. 

It is such valuable information, and allows us to be the best advocates for our horses.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <jenmcgeehan@...> wrote :

I went on line and it indicated that Cyproheptadine (Periactin) doesn't seem to be anywhere near as effective compared to Pergolide. But I didn't see anything in regards to the combination.

= = = = = = = = = =

You didn't see anything because there is nothing there!  The suggestion came from the BI sponsored Endocrinology Group but with no formal data at all to support it.


The objection to dosages over 5 mg also comes from BI, but again with no data.  They make two general claims.


One is that horses on over 5 mg/day have more side effects but we have 51 (out of 268) horses, 19%, in the pergolide database, most for several years, with no higher reports of side effects or suspicious health problems.


The other claim is that horses that need high doses must be on low potency compounded drug.  We have roughly twice as many horses on Prascend in the low dose  categories (22% vs 10%) but 215 out of the total 268 horses are on compounded drugs.  Also, some of the high doses horses are on compounded after switching from Prascend (or Permax) because the cost was prohibitive otherwise.


If you read Prascend's New Animal Drug Application presented to the FDA


http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../UCM280354.pdf


There is only formal safety data (i.e. including a control group) for dosages up to 2 mg. The adverse event reporting, which included 113 horses with no controls, only their baseline history, also only evaluated up to a 2 mg dose despite the fact that 41.6% of horses remained with abnormal lab values after 90 days on 1 mg/day and overall success rate at 180 days including horses on both 1 and 2 mg/day was 68.6%.


The suggested upper "safe" dose of 5 mg/day (it was 3 mg/day when Prascend was first introduced in the USA) is based entirely upon that being highest reported dose found in the published literature (literally just a handful of horses)- NOT on formal safety studies. It would be more accurate to state that safety of dosages above 5 (or 3) mg has not been studied.


As for the cypro, it is an old treatment with limited usefulness that was discarded long ago in favor of pergolide.  Again, there is nothing to support the idea that the combination would be more effective than pergolide alone.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001



Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Dr. Cartmill was the first to make the correlation between high leptin and IR in horses.  His dissertation is here:

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-04152004-095658/unrestricted/Cartmill_dis.pdf

I'm not ruling out a role for gabapentin in this yet.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

Kerry Isherwood
 

Thank you so much, ladies, for your swift assurances that my gelding is indeed not the outlier of leptin resistance that I fretted over. He is, in fact, in good company it seems! :)

I find it very interesting that my 20yo mare--the quintessential IR model whose fat pads have their own fat pads--had a leptin of only 4.19 at her highest, while my svelte gelding, who has many times been mistaken for a Thoroughbred, is in perfect body condition w/o a trace of any visible fat on him, yet has a leptin of >8.

Just when you think you know horses.... ;)

Thank you,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

Claudia Goodman
 

My Morgan mare's Leptin level was 8.8 back in February. I have been able to keep her insulin levels down right around mid-range (non-fasting) and she has been doing well. I will retest her Leptin in a few months to monitor change.

Claudia & Silhouette 2014 California

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Claudia%20%26%20Silhouette/




Re: International Volunteers Day

Laura Cull
 

I only joined a couple of months ago but I am deeply grateful for this group and the dedicated volunteers. EC is a devastating diagnosis to come to terms with. Without this group I don't know how I would have sorted through all the information and misinformation to figure out how to best take care of my beloved horse.
Thank you so much for all your dedication.

Laura & Hope
Oct 2014
Kelowna, BC, Canada


Re: International Volunteers Day

bigwhitevan2002
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote :

>>>>>>>>>>I just want to emphasize that each and every person on this group is important.,<<<<<<<<<<
 

So true Dr. K , but I'm not letting you put down your 'super hero  cape ' that easy,  I am convinced you never sleep...

Thank you for being the veterinary voice of reason, knowledge, and scientific basis,  when the tides of doubt are assailing my ( our) ears as so spoken by a majority of the main stream Veterinarians ,

My hat is off to you and all the dedicated people on this list,  who have helped me in the past 10 years in managing several different horses and ponies...

here's  to another 10 more....( I cannot believe I just said that  LOL, but  getting off this list would be so , so....uncomplicated and  boring.)

With much gratitude to all,

Julie in Oregon,
 with Pony, Richie , Kayla, Durango (rip) KoKo ( rip) and many more who have been assisted in the proper protocols due to the selfless dedication of all....




EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kerry,

Know of one member whose mini came back with a leptin of 15.66 so yours is not that bad in comparison.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team




Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

chf1752@...
 

Bella's leptin was 10.89 back in 2011. Insulin 79.66, glucose 88 and ACTH 24. All done at Cornell. Fat and blubbery like a walrus, over 200lbs overweight. She was ~20 years old at the time. She's a large pony, most likely a Welsh Cob/Arab cross. 

3 years later and massive diet and lifestyle modifications have gotten that 200lbs off her, but she does have those residual fat pads. Any time she's stressed, they puff up again. 

Her most recent glucose came back at 70, and I'm waiting on her insulin results. 

Erin
ME
2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/



Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

Leigh Jacobs
 

Hi Kerry,
My 20+yo Shadow's leptin is >9 ng/ml.  Based on some reading of human research papers, I am correlating it to his huge, nondiminshing appetite.  He is a TWH, so called easy keeper and has not had out of normal insulin or glucose values.  He is not PPID.  However, based on what I have read from Cornell and this group, I am treating him as an IR horse, increasing his fiber, decreasing his concentrates, and trying to get him turned out every day, or ridden.  He is a jumpy/nervous horse, but I have always attributed it to his young years in the show ring.  Makes me wonder if the people in leptin studies have issues as well???
Leigh, Ace and Shadow
Tucson, AZ
2011





On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 11:54 AM, "kerry.isherwood@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
So my gelding's leptin came back 8.32 ng/mL (norm 1-4).  He's the 7yo Saddlebred with inexplicable nervous behavior that has been on gabapentin since April, 2014.  He recently came up with two high insulins, the latest being 47 uIU/mL.  Initially the thought was that perhaps gabapentin was driving the insulin up but with a leptin like that....yeesh!  Has anyone ever seen a leptin that high?  Cornell only indicates that >7 ng/ml is "high".  You guys have more experience than anyone else I know with leptin, so should I believe a leptin this high or throw it out and re-submit a new sample? 

In denial of EMS for horse #2,

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014




Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Jen Mcgeehan
 

Aloha from Hawaii!

It has been a long time since I came to this site for help...So glad to have your input on a new situation with my 32-year old Palomino - Smoke Signal Dun.

He has been on Pergolide, currently 5mg, for about 3 years. Suffered a coffin bone rotation in 2011 and diagnosed with IR and Cushings. We successfully brought him back to good health, through this site's excellent advise, and we still ride our pastures. In 2013 his ACTH level was 29.6. Just had another blood test done and it is at 51. I know this time of year the count can rise, but am sure it is way too high. He is currently on 5mg of Pergolide from Thriving Pets. The vet won't write a prescription for any higher of a dose even though I shared with her that horses can go as high as 10 or 12 mg, if needed. She wants to add Cyrpoheptadine with the Pergolide. Any studies to share in regards to the success of this? I went on line and it indicated that Cyproheptadine (Periactin) doesn't seem to be anywhere near as effective compared to Pergolide. But I didn't see anything in regards to the combination. Would appreciate your help/input here. (His IR numbers are fine...) Merry Christmas!!!


Re: Soaking odtb cubes

ferne fedeli
 

We soak 4 lbs. of cubes for my partner's Appy in the am and use roughly 3/4 of a 2 gallon bucket of water.  At night, he gets 5 lbs. of cubes and a full 2 gallons of water.  It depends on how "soupy" you want it, of course.  As a supplement carrier am and pm for all 3 equines, I put 1 gallon of warm/hot water over about 1 lb. of cubes.  What I don't use for the supps, goes over the top of the Appy's other cubes.  It is definitely a little more soupy.  The cubes also soften up very quickly in the hot water, although it probably takes 10 minutes or more for me to do the other chores and get around to dishing out the carrier cubes and supps...
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:36 PM, Lj lj_friedman@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

I need to prepare the cubes for a 10 minute soaking. Can someone tell me how much water to pour over 4 to 5 pounds of cubes ? I need to have the water set aside each time for the barnmanager where it's easy for him to pour over the needed amount of water If anyone is soaking approximately four or 5 pounds of hay cubes, let me know how much water you soak with and I will do the same. Thanks. Lj friedman San Diego November 2014

Sent from my iPhone


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